Torrent cannot hit 2nd Floor of Ruins

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Topic says it all really.

 

So if a Heldrake is Zooming with it's base on the table, then the Baleflamer cannot hit the 2nd Level of Ruins? (counting them as Ground Level, First Level, Second Level?)

 

Page 101: Ruins and Templates

 

"Template weapons can only hit models under the template on a single level. This can be the same level as the firer, or one level higher or lower. A Jump Model, Jet Pack model, Jetbike or Skimmer that fires a template weapon at a unit in a ruin may target models on any single level of the ruin."

 

So basically the Heldrake has to Hover in order to become a Skimmer in order to hit the 2nd level off the ground, unless it is zooming over a 1st or 2nd level

 

Biker or Tanks with Torrents can never hit 2nd floor. Am I inferring all this correctly?

[Polythemus]

That to me says that being on multi levels keeps you from having the whole squad targeted, but the flyer can stil target any level it chooses. I guess if the building has three levels you could make the arguement that it cant get bottom floor but it might be a tough sell.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

What I was getting at is that the Flyer is on Ground Level. So "one level higher or lower" means it can only hit Ground Level and 1st Level, and cannot hit 2nd Level at all.

 

Certainly not RAI for the Heldrake. But for things like a Hellhound or Burning Brand of Scalathrax, it may be RAW and well as RAI.

[Raeven]

I would put the Flyer in with Jump, Jet, and Skimmers for the purpose of template, able to choose the level of attack but cannot attack multiple levels at once.

 

Flyers are considered above the field.  The base only comes into play for the purpose of disembarking/embarking and the 1" rule.

[Polythemus]

@CAG

I think i see now what you mean. If we accept that there are rules as written and rules as intended, then the rule as written treats a flyer with a template weapon to be a normal ground level infantry unit. flyers are not listed in the exceptions in the rules to hit any level therefore the default status must be true. Of course this will get faqd as soon as possible but i think youve just found a way to avoid flamage from a zooming helldrake. Ps good to see you back posting man.

 

@reaven

I'll agree with you that this is most certainly true but as CAG points out there is no unmoderated way to read the rule for templates. While the fluff does state flyers occupy the space above the field the actual rule requires them to use the rules of flyers while zooming, as opposed to those of a fast skimmer, which they may become under very strict conditions.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

@Polythemus, Glad to be back! Reality took me out of 40k for about 3 months so I'm super happy to be active again. Your statement about where I was coming from very neatly summarizes what I had been thinking.

 

Another of those cases where RAW may end up defeating RAI

[Seahawk]

Yep, this certainly is the case! There is no one way or the other on this, it's clear as day.

 

RAW, a torrent flamer on a non-Jump, Jet Pack, Jetbike or Skimmer model that is on the ground floor cannot possibly hit above the 2nd floor.

 

Good find! Now I know how to marginally protect myself from certain weapons. ;)

[Morollan]

Does the same apply to, say, the battlements of a bastion?

[Raeven]

Is there a defined measurement for levels?  I'm inclined to say every 2 inches, but I don't know if that is just intuition or reinforced by a rule.

 

But I agree with everyone else.  RAW, Flyers torrent the same as tanks and ground units.  One level higher or lower than their base.

[Leonaides]

3 inches would be closer... Going on the ruins packs.

[Fibonacci]

But a torrent weapon is not a tremplate weapon.  A torrent weapon places the template marker amnywhere within 12" of the weapon.  This could be any level of a ruin at all as long as the narrow end is within 12" of the weapon.  What I would not allow is for the narrow end to hover in mid air.  It has to be placed on terrain.

[Morollan]

But a torrent weapon is not a tremplate weapon.  A torrent weapon places the template marker amnywhere within 12" of the weapon.  This could be any level of a ruin at all as long as the narrow end is within 12" of the weapon.  What I would not allow is for the narrow end to hover in mid air.  It has to be placed on terrain.

 

 

Firstly, torrent is a template weapon, or at the very least is treated as one.

 

 

 

When firing a weapon with this special rule, place the template so that the narrow end is within 12" of the weapon and the wide end is no closer to the weapon than the narrow end. The weapon is then treated like any other Template weapon.

 

Secondly, there is nothing in the rules to say that the template has to be placed on the tabletop or on terrain as long as the narrow end is touching the base of the firing model. Even this rule is superceded when firing at higher levels, as stated on page 100

 

 

The best way to gauge which models are actually under the template is to sirnply hold the template above the entire ruin, and look down through it.

[Fibonacci]

 

 

When firing a weapon with this special rule, place the template so that the narrow end is within 12" of the weapon and the wide end is no closer to the weapon than the narrow end. The weapon is then treated like any other Template weapon.

 

Secondly, there is nothing in the rules to say that the template has to be placed on the tabletop or on terrain as long as the narrow end is touching the base of the firing model.

 

Read that again.  It never mentions the base of the firing model.  In fact, a torrent weapon can place the marker up to 12" away.  Even then, it is 12" from the weapon, not the base.  The base is never mentioned.

 

And the Baleflamer is not a template weapon.  It does not have the template rule.  It is also not a pistol for the same reason.  It is a torrent weapon because it has the torrent rule.  Torrent is not the same as template.  They have different rules.

[Gentlemanloser]

Torrent is a Template (tear drop, not blast) that is placed 12" away from the weapon.

 

Or with regards to the Helldrake, 12" from it's base, as per FAQ.

[Seahawk]

Does the same apply to, say, the battlements of a bastion?

No. Buildings are treated as immobile vehicles, for the most part, and the top of a building isn't any more on a different level than the top of a vehicle is. Seems goofy, but that's how it works. The rules for Ruins and Buildings are separate and distinct, and in this case weird but hey that's what they wrote.

[Morollan]

 

 

Does the same apply to, say, the battlements of a bastion?

No. Buildings are treated as immobile vehicles, for the most part, and the top of a building isn't any more on a different level than the top of a vehicle is. Seems goofy, but that's how it works. The rules for Ruins and Buildings are separate and distinct, and in this case weird but hey that's what they wrote.

GW in wierd rules shocker. Pictures at 11.

 

When firing a weapon with this special rule, place the template so that the narrow end is within 12" of the weapon and the wide end is no closer to the weapon than the narrow end. The weapon is then treated like any other Template weapon.

Secondly, there is nothing in the rules to say that the template has to be placed on the tabletop or on terrain as long as the narrow end is touching the base of the firing model.

Read that again. It never mentions the base of the firing model. In fact, a torrent weapon can place the marker up to 12" away. Even then, it is 12" from the weapon, not the base. The base is never mentioned.

And the Baleflamer is not a template weapon. It does not have the template rule. It is also not a pistol for the same reason. It is a torrent weapon because it has the torrent rule. Torrent is not the same as template. They have different rules.

You might want to check The Forbidden Armoury in Codex: CSM and take a look what it says under "Range" for the Baleflamer and then read page 52 of the BRB under "Template Weapons"

Template weapons are indicated by having the word Template for their range instead of a number.

[MayorDaley]

For what it's worth; I called the rules lawyers at GW today and asked this question.  The response I got was that if you have a 5 story ruin the Helldrake may target the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th levels while flying.  When in hover mode it may pick any of them (fast skimmer). 

 

The logic behind it was that even though you measure from the base (ground), the top/back (3rd level), is the level the Helldrake is at.

 

They also said, they have always played it that while flying, the Helldrake may flame any level...

 

As we all know, if you call tomorrow, you will probably get a different answer.  The gentleman did say that it was the first time that question has been brought up.  I suggest that all of the more eloquent members of this forum shoot the GW rules lawyers an email, and see if this gets a response.  He did seem interested in this question and made a lengthy search and response to this question.

 

Cheers

[CitadelArmyGuy]

For what it's worth; I called the rules lawyers at GW today and asked this question.  The response I got was that if you have a 5 story ruin the Helldrake may target the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th levels while flying.  When in hover mode it may pick any of them (fast skimmer). 

 

The logic behind it was that even though you measure from the base (ground), the top/back (3rd level), is the level the Helldrake is at.

Hilarious interpretation. Good lord I would love for GW to FAQ this using this wording. "A zooming Flyer is counted as being at the 3rd level of Ruins (6" height)"

 

Because then Units on the ground-level in Ruins would be untargetable.

 

Either way I'm happy. Flyers are clearly not on the list of Units which hit any level (unless Hover), so the Heldrake is either on Ground Level (making Level 2+ immune) or on the 3rd Level (making Ground and Level 5+ immune).

[MayorDaley]

You have the jist of it. :)

[Grey Mage]

 

For what it's worth; I called the rules lawyers at GW today and asked this question.  The response I got was that if you have a 5 story ruin the Helldrake may target the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th levels while flying.  When in hover mode it may pick any of them (fast skimmer). 

 

The logic behind it was that even though you measure from the base (ground), the top/back (3rd level), is the level the Helldrake is at.

Hilarious interpretation. Good lord I would love for GW to FAQ this using this wording. "A zooming Flyer is counted as being at the 3rd level of Ruins (6" height)"

 

Because then Units on the ground-level in Ruins would be untargetable.

 

Either way I'm happy. Flyers are clearly not on the list of Units which hit any level (unless Hover), so the Heldrake is either on Ground Level (making Level 2+ immune) or on the 3rd Level (making Ground and Level 5+ immune).

An interesting note, and the RAW is certainly fairly clear on the matter- though not nessecairily in agreement with the results of that call.

 

Frankly, their call centers have been anything but consistant over the years....

[Grimtooth]

I have touched on this before and it was interesting to see people that tried to favor a RAI over the RAW and allow HD to hit any level because they were "flying".

 

The RAW is pretty clear cut on this one and anyone bringing it up to a TO should have the page numbers marked and highlighted to clearly show the RAW.