Angels of Death: BA + DA Synergy

[CitadelArmyGuy]

While talking with Ushtarador about a BA-DA list provided by Morticon, we thought it would be a good idea to open a thread where the community can collaborate together on Synergies provided by that alliance type. Ushtarador remarked (and I'm inclined to agree) that DA fight strategically much in the way BA does:

 

 

I feel that DA synergize really well with [bA] in so many ways, better than any other army can do. They're fast, aggressive and work a lot through force multipliers, it feels very familiar.

With my hands finally grasping the new DA codex, I have just a few initial thoughts myself to put forth. However, for starters I haven't really digested "Deathwing stuff" yet so hopefully someone in the community has tried them out and can provide feedback.

 

But to get into the meat of things:

 

• Librarian: Lowest cost HQ with tons of force multiplication, arguably most efficient HQ ever seen due to that. 85pts for Mastery1 with JP & Auspex (Cheaper than SangPriest w/Axe).
  • Prescience Casters require no introduction-- they force multiply extremely well, but for best results they need to cast onto Units which roll lots of dice (the more dice rolled, the higher returns gained from rerolls economically). Also since the Bless lasts into both player turns, Melee Units receive greater benefit from Prescience than solely Shooting Units.
  • Personally I feel leaving at Mastery1 might be the correct choice if supporting ASM. If only he could have accessed Biomancy then M2 might have been more worth it when supporting ASM.
  • Gives Fearless and Preferred Enemy: Chaos Marines (melee+shooting) to his entire Unit-- great for ASM and even better for MM Attackbikes who suffer low Leadership+Low Model count = high risk of Falling Back off the board.
  • Auspex: Automatically make one enemy unit within 12" have -1 cover save. Combined with Baal Pred, Attackbikes and/or Raven shooting, this wargear is auto-include every time if the Librarian expects to close the gap with the enemy (ie if supporting ASM, then always)
• Ravenwing Speeders: Exactly like BA Speeders except can take up to Squadron size of 5. If they all take Dual-HB then 300pts gains you 30 shots. With Prescience, that equals 11.85 dead MEQ. Basically can replace 2 squads of 3 Speeders, and benefits from a single Prescience cast (while being more resilent and protecting a single KP instead of 2). Glorious for shooting things which ASM have trouble assaulting-- synergizes well with ASM, as they can move ahead of an ASM advance and provide mobile cover, or work a flank as required.
• DA Devastators: 110pts for 4 HB or 150pts for 4 LC (lowest priced quad-lascannon squad currently in the game). Of course, going with 4 PC goes far to both mitigate Heavy Infantry which BA traditionally have trouble with, and also forces the opponent to spread out:

 

Blast weaponry synergizes with Melee Units, because it forces the opponent to deploy spread out much greater than they normally would. Ergo, achieving concentration becomes that much easier, and return damage is highly mitigated as they lose attacks from a greater number of unengaged models.

• DA Vindicators: 20pts cheaper than BA but lose fast, so 30" Demolisher range instead of 36"
• DA Whirlwinds: 25pts cheaper than BA. Honestly with the buff to Barrage Weapons, the above mentioned Synergy between Melee and Blasts, and the fact that 65pts is ultracheap.... I may end up running a Whirly for the first time I can remember!

 

 

Now I am sure there are so very much more items to cover, ie the whole of Ravenwing, Deathwing, the named ICs, and more goodies. I just ran outta time, I've got to go for now. But everyone please pitch in with ideas!

[SamaNagol]

Azrael with DC blob

 

Ravenwing Command with Rad Grenades to soften up targets for ASM charge

 

Can you put a Techmarine with Power Field in a Stormraven? That would be hilarious.

 

5 man Tac squads with a flak missile or Lascannon are dirt cheap.

 

Darkshrouds are incredibly useful in a BA AV13/jump pack list

[Morticon]

Sadly, no allies in each other's transports. 

[Ushtarador]

Great post CAG I start feeling that almost every unit in the DA codex can be of great value to us.

Personally, I feel there's a huge potential in black knights/ravenwing command squads and the Darktalon bomber. They allow our ASM to finally strike first again versus most opponents, and stasis charges also lower the WS.

Just imagine: Against other MEQ with prescience, FC and a stasis grenade we're hitting on rerollable 3+, wounding on 3+, and everything before the opponent can retaliate.

Also, for 90 points you get 5 tactical marines with a lascannon, as Sama mentioned, one of the best objective squatters I can think of.

Then there's also Morts last list with "DA" as main army and BA allies, to get scoring bikes and terminators, but that's another path

[Jolemai]

Lower down on this board is a thread where someone is playtesting Ravenwing with Death Company and using Stasis grenades to great affect.

[knife&fork]

DA allies are interesting as they can help overcome our shortcomings in the troops and HQ department while having units that many BA players already run but are just plain better for the points, like speeders and bikes. 

 

I'd be careful about spending a lot of points on 1W DA bikers though, no DA player I've seen do well with too many of them since they die just like normal marines when faced with volume of fire, no to mention the Heldrake.

 

30 DC with 4++ sounds like fun, I supposed we can't give them salvo 4 bolters though? :(

[ianj253]

I really like the Idea of using Black knights with ASM, but it seems pretty costly 

 

10 ASM- 2x Melta, PW 225

Priest- Axe, JP 90

DA Jump Libby 80

3 Black Knights- Launcher 126

 

Total-521

[SamaNagol]

What about running a Shield libby amongst hordes of Marines, backed up by a Darkshroud?

[CitadelArmyGuy]

 

What about running a Shield libby amongst hordes of Marines, backed up by a Darkshroud?

I'm still unsure how I feel about the Shroud-Speeder. The fact that the model is ugly aside, I'm not sure 80pts on a fragile platform is the right price. I'm already sad a SangPriest is 75-90pts and he is largely untargetable as well as providing 2 buffs (FnP/FC) not just one (Stealth). I go back and forth mentally-- sometimes it feels 80pts is too expensive and sometimes it feels fairly decent for what it does.

Anyone have good experience running one? 6" Stealth-Speeder radius combined with SangPriest 6" radius combined with Libby 12" radius.... pretty nice force multiplication. However, potentially your maneuver options begin to become severely hindered and awkward as you try to move across the battlefield trying to keep everything in range of each other.

I could see Stealth-Speeder quite useful in a Mechanized BA force, using Razors to hide the Speeder from LOS and then a SangShield Libby casting from inside a Razor. 4+ Cover Save Mechanized BA may actually play out really nicely! I think in the process of writing this I've convinced myself that Stealth-Speeder is pretty good in Armor lists but not quite right for Infantry lists.

Also, any list that has a large amount of Units with Jink is also a potential candidate for a Darkshroud Speeder. If your BA Fast Attack is full-up with Speeders or Attackbikes then it might end up being worth it.

Also, 3+ Jink on the Darkshroud may potentially tank a fair amount of damage if an opponent decides to shoot-down the Darkshroud, which may help out more important things survive. But then again it might die to the first thing that shoots it... just comes with the territory of AV10.

 

EDIT: It just occurred to me that the Darkshroud can simply Flat-Out every turn. What does it lose, 3 HB shots? Who cares-- because then it has 2+ Jink. Basically just designed to zip around and provide stealth. For 2+ Jink, I can get down with 80pts for that. Plus the fact it is situationally expendable if you are really hard-up for a screen. Darkshroud is beginning to grow on me.

[ianj253]

I could see the Darkshourd being useful, but it depends on your meta. At local tournaments there's usually 2-3 chaos players running heldrakes, so there usefulness goes right out the window. 

[Ushtarador]

Darkshroud is fun with vehicles and shield - downside is, you have to take an expensive BA libby and lose prescience. If you're playing infantry-heavy, I don't think he's that useful, but in mechlists he might be quite cool

10 ASM- 2x Melta, PW 225

Priest- Axe, JP 90

DA Jump Libby 80

3 Black Knights- Launcher 126

Total-521

If you now add a second and/or third ASM squad, they will also benefit from your force multipliers (except prescience). You have to spend some base cost on the support units, but in return everything else you have will be a lot stronger.

You have to be very careful with those bikers, but with them being scouts and skilled riders, it should be possible to position them nicely. The trick is to just present something even more dangerous, like podded Fragiosos or Mephiston, which lowers the target priority of the bikes and increases their chances of survival.

[knife&fork]

Bikes are a nice target for the low S high AP fire from basic weapons that will go to waste against a lot of other dangerous things. That's their issue.

[Ushtarador]

They sure aren't as durable as they might seem. CAG actually also suggested outflanking them, I like that option, especially if you have a comm-relay.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

More thoughts (apologies the following may be fairly old hat for many of you):

 

• Dark Talon: Pricetag of 160pts is steep, relegating use to higher-point lists (and perhaps too steep for some player's taste to ever include at all)
  • Stasis Bomb drops in the movement phase and only scatters D6". It causes -3 WS and Init onto all models in a Unit that it hits (doesn't even need to wound), which is far superior to the Ravenwing GL. Only one shot use though... very sad. This bomb is half of the reason to take the DT at all--- even ASM will maul most units after they've been clipped by this guy. However, if your opponent is an MSU build or IG/Tau then most likely it'll be irrelevant.
  • Rift Cannon Str5 Small Blast, Blind is nice versus Low-Init, and heck 33% chance to Blind a Dev/Havoc/Oblit squad is notable just not overtly impressive.
  • Flyer Hurricane Bolters are nice, as evidenced via experience from BA Stormraven. Still nothing amazing though... but perhaps there's a combo to be had.

So everything above seems interesting but may or may not be quite worth the points. However, the ever-mentioned Banner of Devastation (BoD) comes to mind anytime DA bolters are present (ref Hurricane Bolters). Let's see how we might to get one:

• Sadly, 185pts for a RavenWing Command Squad is probably the most expensive 3 models you've ever spent, so I'd rate that they are not too viable for BoD. Outflank adds interesting applications but the BoD is vulnerable to directional fire and other factors in a mere 3-man unit.
• Normal Command Squad for 185+pts could be interesting, but may stuggle for identity:
  • On foot is a non-starter as they wouldn't be very flexible.
  • In a Drop Pod, they may land too soon to combine with the Darktalon and are probably more suited to 5x special weapon suicide-pod tactics.
  • In a Razorback as part of a Mech list probably fits fairly well.
  • I'd stay away from Land Raider Crusaders unless you're prepared for the LR to define the rest of your list and tactics. The resulting 24+4 (TL) shots put out by the LRC is fairly attractive but the unit inside should be a melee-specialist Unit.
• 285pts (probably higher for added gear) for a DeathWing Command Squad (DWCS) might be the best way to include the BoD. They can choose to arrive on Turn2, deepstriking roughly near a target that the Darktalon is going to light up.
  • Turn 2 you can Deep Strike the DWCS first, then the Talon will fly to within 6" of their banner-- viola, a wonderful 24 twinlinked shots at 24" away.
  • Deep Striking DWCS will have twinlinked shooting when they land as well, and can supplement the shooting even further
  • If your Stormraven also showed up that turn then the opponent is going to have to choose which flyer to shoot down first-- the lower AV (Talon) or the more dangerous (Raven).
  • Also, the DT should have attempted to stasis bomb a secondary target which you plan on charging with ASM/SG/etc.

So it seems the BoD is probably best taken on DWCS (with Razorback Command Squad better for Mech lists). The main issue with the DWCS however is that you must take a DA IC wearing TDA to unlock them... meaning 95pts for M1 Libby... which is crumb if you were set on a JP Lib to support ASM. The DWCS BoD can always be used defensively as well to give buff to from the 2x 5-man Tactical squads' bolters. 8 shots becomes 32 shots, useful if fighting an opponent that must come to you... although then the attendant LCs may be less inclined to fire on their traditional targets. Don't miss out on the 5pt Halberd of Caliban Champion upgrade if you do take a DWCS (in FAQ).

 

 

 

So the mess of text above all seems to point to one thing: taking a Dark Talon takes you down a rabbit-hole for list creation. It is just like a Land Raider-- the decision to include one forces several more supplementary choices to make sure you get the most out of it. For starters, you need Melee Units in your list to even consider taking the DT, otherwise the Stasis Bomb is a complete waste. In a sad twist, it seems BA can make far more use out the DT than the DA can, due to our JP melee emphasis.

 

After the bomb is dropped however, the DT usefulness drops dramatically. However, a DT and Raven can fly around together and apply dakka onto required deep targets that you may not otherwise reach with ground units, and the DT can give the Raven a Cover Save without the latter having to Evade. The sad realization though is that DT+SR is only 70pts cheaper than 2 SR.

[SamaNagol]

Shrouded Heavy Bolter Land Speeders are really good.