Deatwing terminator squad numbers

[leonhart040]

Hi,
I'm not sure if this goes here, but it seemed the most adequated place. I'm trying to build a pure deathwing list and after looking in this and other forums I realized that many people use termi squads of 5 man instead of 10.
Is there a reason to use only 5? I have the new codex and did not find anything about this.
Also, if I use a HQ in terminator armor (like Belial) I can add him to a command squad, but again I see only 4 man command squad so he can fit in..why?
Thanks.

[Wraithwing]

Hi,

I'm not sure if this goes here, but it seemed the most adequated place. I'm trying to build a pure deathwing list and after looking in this and other forums I realized that many people use termi squads of 5 man instead of 10.

Is there a reason to use only 5? I have the new codex and did not find anything about this.

Also, if I use a HQ in terminator armor (like Belial) I can add him to a command squad, but again I see only 4 man command squad so he can fit in..why?

Thanks.

 

The number of Terminators you use is really just personal preference. 

 

However, bear in mind that in a pure Deathwing list, scoring units are at a premium. Therefore, having squads of 5 allows for more scoring units on the table. 

 

Also, the Deathwing Command Squad comes with 5 Terminators as standard. Not sure where you're seeing a 4 man Command Squad?

 

Cheers, 

 

WW

[Brother Immolator]

Deathwing command squads are five man units only. Its a fixed number due to the codex. The apothecary and the champion are replacing standard terminators.

If you add belial in there you will have a six man unit.

 

Why are most people using 5 man terminator squads? Well its a hold out from 4th edition most likely, where we are allowed only 5 man units.

Plus its safer to deep strike them due to mishaps and whatnot. Also consider this: THere is no point of having for example five, 6-man squads. You loose a heavy weapon in the process. Where as if you take those models and make them a squad they can be upgraded with a heavy weapon too. And you need to keep them to a minimum as to have more to score.

 

EDIT: Ninjad by Wraith

[Scythe of vengence]

In games under 2000pts, units of Deathwing terminators over 5 men get expensive very quickly and can lower your number of scoring units. In 1500pts it's generally better to have more scoring units than bigger ones for Deathwing.

My list runs like this:
Belial
Command squad with heavy flamer and Apothercary (I should remove that option. It hasn't proven it's worth in FNP but the extra precision shot potential!)

Troop units consist of the following
2 5 man units with assault cannon
1 with plasma cannon
And 1 with Cyclone missile launcher, both 5 man units, all the units have a Chainfist, Because just incase right?

The Command squad is 5 men strong for Deathwing. 

My list has four scoring units, and that has won me at least one game out of 4 wins (Out of 8 games so far of time of writing I have a 4/3/1 record with Pure Deathwing).

There's also the fact that a bigger unit of terminators has a gigantic bullseye labeled "Shoot me!" Which I am not a fan of, but that's personal preference.

 

[rover]

10 men unit can destroy everything. 5 men unit can destroy most of what people will throw at you. Using two 5 men units lets you to potentially kill two units per turn instead of one.

 

Fielding Belial makes your Terminators a Troop choice. By fielding two 5 men squads you get extra scoring unit and having appropriate scoring potential is kind of a problem for Deathwing in general. 

 

Put high cost of Deathwing units on top of that and you will be able to conclude why 5 men setups are more popular. Still it's worth to notice that squad of 10 terminators can rip everything apart :)

[Brother Immolator]

OK OK guys this is B&C not a ninja training school

Damn the codex should give us free assassins!

[Upstartes]

You can combat squad a 10-man DW team, right? I am thinking of running two 10-man teams, giving me the flexibility to do 5 or 10 each game. If the mission comes up kill points, the 10- man arrangement has advantages.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

You can combat squad a 10-man DW team, right? I am thinking of running two 10-man teams, giving me the flexibility to do 5 or 10 each game. If the mission comes up kill points, the 10- man arrangement has advantages.

The disadvantadge is that you have 2 less sgts for challenges, but that probably isn't a game-breaker.

[Haranin]

nope, dw can't combat squad

[leonhart040]

Ok thanks, I saw it so many times I thought it was because of a hidden rule or something. 

Now, for the command squad and Belial, what about this configuration:

 

Belial

TH/SS

 

Command squad

Really not sure what to use -_-

any advices please?

[Cactus]

You can combat squad a 10-man DW team, right? I am thinking of running two 10-man teams, giving me the flexibility to do 5 or 10 each game. If the mission comes up kill points, the 10- man arrangement has advantages.

 

Wrong I'm afraid. None of the three Deathwing units has the 'combat squads' rule.

 

[edit] The ninjas are still active!

[EPK]

For some references on DW lists, you might want to check here - http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/110-dark-angel-army-lists/

 

Belial's Sword and SB seem to be the favored build now with TH/SS coming in a close second. The TH/SS variant seems ideal especially when running with DW Knights.

[leonhart040]

Does the champion act like a sergeant or is it needed anyway?

[Master Sheol]

If you have a dw command squad with your IC a champion is always useful to accept a challenge and protect your IC. In addition he has one of the best melee weapons in DA armoury. Unfortunately the apothevary loses all his melee weapons so he his useful for FNP and precision shot with SB only.

[elphilo]

If you're asking if the Champion becomes a Character, yes he does

As to running 10 or 5 man units, personally I like to run a 10 man shooty unit with a Librarian in TDA for prescience. It's really effective. But as others say, it is a unit where your opponent will point all his guns at.

The rest of my troops consist of 3-4 (depending on points) 5 man Terminator Units for scoring. Since Deathwing Terminators lack combat squads (like others have said) we really need to have a lot of smaller units for scoring.

[Brother dean]

Deathwing command squads are five man units only. Its a fixed number due to the codex. The apothecary and the champion are replacing standard terminators.

If you add belial in there you will have a six man unit.

 

Why are most people using 5 man terminator squads? Well its a hold out from 4th edition most likely, where we are allowed only 5 man units.

Plus its safer to deep strike them due to mishaps and whatnot. Also consider this: THere is no point of having for example five, 6-man squads. You loose a heavy weapon in the process. Where as if you take those models and make them a squad they can be upgraded with a heavy weapon too. And you need to keep them to a minimum as to have more to score.

 

EDIT: Ninjad by Wraith

Champion and Apoth are both characters.  [ninja'd I am sure by now]

 

I dont have my dex with me but doesnt units of 6 allow for a second heavy weapon?  (squads of 6-10 may select a second heavy?...)  in Brother Immolator's example above he could have 10 heavy weapons instead of 6. 

 

My one experience with a 10 man squad was VERY unwieldy because I couldnt ever get them in all in LOS to another squad.  5 is just easier to move.

[leonhart040]

Humm, thanks for the info, but still is it necesary to have a sergeant?

 

I really a noob in w40k :P

[Brother Immolator]

It seems TH/SS belial is out of favour these days. I prefer him with the sword meself. Its iconic. Plus its rules are nothing to smug at.

The command squad is the only terminator unit I field with hammers myself.

Brother dean: I was counting the models in the command squad not the special chars, hense the number six /replaces comments

Yes they are characters (another stain on the apothecarys honour )

And you get a heavy weapon on per 5 models in each squad.

:Raises the bat and waits for the ninja.

EDIT: The sarge is a usefull unit. He can soak up challenges (that be both bad and good).

He can duel with an enemy squad leader or character and have some outcomes: Outright slay him, which means that most likely a deadly weapon or number of attacks were not directed at the squad and the enemy model was removed. Loose your sergeant to the enemy usually meaning that you saved the unit from receiving said deadly attacks while allowing them to deal with the retinue and then when your sarge dies to clomp/stomb the enemies with ease. Or a combination of fails where you postpone the squad been wiped out for a turn or two. Usually that means that your sergeant died and the unit will be completely clombered next round: Read damon prince. As of Saturday with new extra crispy(or gooie or bloody or sexy depending on god) demon codex.

Generally you need to familiarise yourself with the duel rules. And then you will see why the deathwing champion wielding an iniative striking axe is the best thing since sex was invented. Generaly the rule to go is having an initiative striking weapon (power sword) which in general terminators lack and only the head honcho can have.

EDIT 2: Multiple edits and no ninja, that bat must have worked

EDIT 3: Thats another reason to take belial with the sword instead of hammer.

EDIT 4: And yet no ninja :P

[Brother dean]

Good luck with the bat...  Heavy Flamers work better...  See Batman Begins for an example.

[Brother Landrain]

The 5 Man DW squad had become standard with the Last Codex. And the Command Squad is still fixxed at 5 man.

The problem with the 5 man squad is durability, FB posted a long time ago, that a 5 man tactical based DW squad is about as durable as a 10 man tactical squad.

With the ability to add extra DW members, a 5 Man Tactical Squad gains much in durability, Add 2 extra members with TH/SS and you do not lose any shooting power, but add a lot to your durability.

Adding two is important as in 6th edition you take hits/wounds from closest target. By adding two you can tactically place the TH/SS to help mitigate any Low AP threats.

 

With Assault based squads, you usually have just 1 ranged attack. The Heavy Weapon.

If you DS, you are stuck out in the open for a turn of shooting, and 1's happen.

Here it is also usefull to add 1-2 additional DW to give them that many more saves.

 

Also with the inability to chase down falling back units, as well as the 5th edition change where you cannot pile-in into Close Combat, you will find DW squads out in the open a lot, and the more the more durable they are, because 1's Happen.

 

Also If you are using a LRC as a transport, you can field 8 TDA suits, so a 7 man squad + IC fit nicely.

 

This is where the Stsndard of Fortitude really comes in handy. As it gives you a 33% chance of ignoring most wounds. With a fully DW army IMO, it is a must have standard.

 

Lastly, for some reason they did not give DW the combat Squads rule, even though Green Squads, and Vets got it. The 2 HW in a 5 man squad rational which some say is OTT, is not the reason, because BA/SM can CS a 10 Man Terminator squad. I guess the TH/SS + HW is considered too strong to be together in a 5 man squad, but again 1's Happen.

 

Playing DW you need to remember that you will always be outnumbered, and 1's Happen.

Taking a squad from 5 to 2 or 3 greatly diminishes their offensive capability.

That is why I always recommend a 7 Man squad, yes you 'lose' a heavy weapon when you take 3 seven man DW squads, but imo they are more effective than 4 DW squads of 5. They survive longer, and they maintain their offensive capabilities longer.

[leonhart040]

Brother dean: xDDD

 

Well then, the squad will have this config:

 

Command squad:

Champion HoC

Apothecary SB

1x terminator Deathwing Company banner, TH/SS

1x sarge SB, Power sword

1x terminator AC

 

Sill, really not sure about it

[Brother Immolator]

Brother LR, the comparison since there has changed. The only common they have now with a tac squad is their shooting. In CC they are much more now. The article doesnt take into account the power weapon nerf the power axe intiative losing / sergeants initiative strikes and split fire to boot and it never took into account the fact that they are all equiped with a power something, either that been a fist/hammer/sword/claw. Those are changing the odds considerably on the survival department. Where CC was decided by who got the fastest power weapon now it needs a whole lot of thinking. So its a bit of a moot point due to the seasons chaning IMHO. And the storm bolter is an ap point lower too.

[facmanpob]

Brother dean: xDDD

 

Well then, the squad will have this config:

 

Command squad:

Champion HoC

Apothecary SB

1x terminator Deathwing Company banner, TH/SS

1x sarge SB, Power sword

1x terminator AC

 

Sill, really not sure about it

The Command Squad does not get the option to have a Sergeant. It has 5 terminators, 1 who can be upgraded to a champion, and 1 who can be upgraded to an apothecary. Any remaining terminators who are not upgraded can take a chainfist, or swap their weapons for lightning claws or a TH/SS. 1 terminator may also carry a heavy weapon.

 

Out of interest, do you have a copy of the codex?

[Brother Landrain]

Brother LR, the comparison since there has changed. The only common they have now with a tac squad is their shooting. In CC they are much more now. The article doesnt take into account the power weapon nerf the power axe intiative losing / sergeants initiative strikes and split fire to boot and it never took into account the fact that they are all equiped with a power something, either that been a fist/hammer/sword/claw. Those are changing the odds considerably on the survival department. Where CC was decided by who got the fastest power weapon now it needs a whole lot of thinking. So its a bit of a moot point due to the seasons chaning IMHO. And the storm bolter is an ap point lower too.

 

I was not discussing their Offensive Strengths, only Durability, which really has not changed a single bit. The only change is to the frequency that you will run into AP2 weapons. The stats vs AP2, AP3, AP4+ are still the same as far as survivability.

The durability of DW and PA has not changed that significantly, in so much as the number of units with all PW's get to choose what type they want.

 

And honestly,

 

What is the most common way to lose Terminators?

 

Massed gunfire and rolling 1's.

 

In Close Combat, if you get charged by a squad of 10 Death Company, or similar CC unit, the initiative and the AP of the weapons really doesn't matter that much...

 

Roll 20+ saves, you will roll 1's.

 

That is IMO, the biggest flaw of all terminators is they should be 2W models, for the price you pay with a D6 system, they are overpriced. Now if we had a D10 system and TDA was SV2 and PA was Sv4, that would change things a bit, but the limitations of the D6 system are really felt by TDA troops.

 

And yes all TDA have a Power weapon, but 2/3 of them are at Init 1. And normal PW's the only AP2 is with the Axe, which is also init 1. So you may get to strike, but will still die just the same.

 

This is why I strongly Recommend the Standard of Fortitude in any DW army. the 12" Bubble of FNP can easilly encompass 3 or more squads. And getting a chance to ignore 33% of all 1's is a huge increase in durability.

[Brother Landrain]

 

Brother dean: xDDD

 

Well then, the squad will have this config:

 

Command squad:

Champion HoC

Apothecary SB

1x terminator Deathwing Company banner, TH/SS

1x sarge SB, Power sword

1x terminator AC

 

Sill, really not sure about it

The Command Squad does not get the option to have a Sergeant. It has 5 terminators, 1 who can be upgraded to a champion, and 1 who can be upgraded to an apothecary. Any remaining terminators who are not upgraded can take a chainfist, or swap their weapons for lightning claws or a TH/SS. 1 terminator may also carry a heavy weapon.

 

Out of interest, do you have a copy of the codex?

 

One point of notice, is that the Standard Bearer is NOT a character... and cannot be Challenged.. but can be precise shot, and does not get a LOS roll.

 

The Apothecary and Champion are however.