Primach Showdown - the ones that didn't happen!

[calgar101]

I want to see Vulkan smack a traitor Primarch silly, he was physically the strongest right?

[Billuriye]

I want to see Vulkan smack a traitor Primarch silly, he was physically the strongest right?

It was said he was, with Ferrus Manus. By a Salamander though which brings questionability to the claim.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

I want to see Vulkan smack a traitor Primarch silly, he was physically the strongest right?

Apparently its Manus but I always thought it was Vulkan aswell. I agree I want him to take appart either Alpherus or Lorgar in a Bane vs Batman style fight.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Execept that you dislike the guys who would win that fight. . .

[Veteran Sergeant]

I only know the bit where Dorn does not want to divide his Legion. I missed the bit where he had a problem with a comprehensive manual on Space Marine doctrines.

It's always kind of humorous that people don't realize that the Codex Astartes is a giant tome, with a bunchof different aspects to it.  Dorn didn't like the idea of splitting up the Legions.  He's never been depicted as having any problems with the rest of it.  In fact, the Imperial Fists are depicted in 40K lore as being dedicated Codex users. 

 

It's the same with Leman Russ.  There's never been any indication that he thought the strategies of the Codex were bad.  Only that he didn't like 10x100 company structure of a chapter and decided to do things his own way.

 

There are multiple different parts of Space Marineing that the Codex covers.  Principally, there have been described two parts.

1. Organization, recruitment and training.  Guidelines for how to screen, recruit, and train new Space Marines, with measures for reducing the likelihood of corruption or mutation.  Basically there were flaws in the recruitment system that were believed could have led the Heresy, so the process was codified.

2. Strategy and tactics, with countless examples of different scenarios, so that commanders could combine their own experience with the lessons of the Codex to allow them to adapt strategies for battle.  Of course, there are the ludicrously stupid stories about how Space Marine commanders follow the Codex to the letter and their enemies already know the answer and outmaneuver them.  This isn't the way the Codex was originally described, and well, every license has it's terrible authors, so 40K is no different.

 

"Codex Adherent" has always just meant that a chapter organizes itself 10x100 (or some close approximation) and uses the training and recruitment doctrines in the Codex.  It has nothing to do with the strategy section of the Codex.  Since the Codex is described everywhere except for the bad stories about the Ultramarines as being the reason why the Space Marines have been so successful, it's unlikely that too many chapters actually scorn the Codex Astartes treatises on warfare. 

[Deus Imperator Vult]

 

 

 

It's the same with Leman Russ.  There's never been any indication that he thought the strategies of the Codex were bad.  Only that he didn't like 10x100 company structure of a chapter and decided to do things his own way.

This might be off topic but what happened to the other wolves? They have no second founding chapters apart from the ill fated wolf brothers, yet, they went from legion to chapter strength none the less. Should I talk this to a new post?

[Onisuzume]

 

It's the same with Leman Russ.  There's never been any indication that he thought the strategies of the Codex were bad.  Only that he didn't like 10x100 company structure of a chapter and decided to do things his own way.

This might be off topic but what happened to the other wolves? They have no second founding chapters apart from the ill fated wolf brothers, yet, they went from legion to chapter strength none the less. Should I talk this to a new post?

I don't think that happened overnight.

Split the legion once to create the Wolf Brothers, and stop recruitment for a while to let the great companies shrink in size due to casualties until they're roughly chapter strength combined. Just because they're against that structure doesn't mean that they're opposed to seeing the use of reducing their size.

[Peter the Hermit]

^ They were the speartip in the scouring IIRC...After losing the emperor they went a little loko on traitorus arses....

[Veteran Sergeant]

 

It's the same with Leman Russ.  There's never been any indication that he thought the strategies of the Codex were bad.  Only that he didn't like 10x100 company structure of a chapter and decided to do things his own way.

This might be off topic but what happened to the other wolves? They have no second founding chapters apart from the ill fated wolf brothers, yet, they went from legion to chapter strength none the less. Should I talk this to a new post?

My belief is that the casualties they sustained were so heavy that only recruiting from Fenris, they were never able to recover their numbers like someof the other Legions were.

 

If you think about it, they went toe to toe with the Thousand Sons in a direct frontal assault on their homeworld.  ANy kind of direct assault on a fortified location is hideous for casualties on the attacker given more or less an even state of technology.  So the battle of Prosepro probably hurt the Space Wolves fairly badly.  Then they went directly into the rest of the Heresy, and subsequently the Scouring (which was basically a seven year long Great Crusade to recapture planets lost to the traitors. 

 

I'd imagine by the time the Wolves emerged from all that, they were so small that splitting once was all they could do.  Now, their split was probably much larger than the others, in that the Wolves and Wolf Brothers were likely much larger than standard Chapter strength, but having the Wolves be under 5K in total numbers by the end of the Heresy/Scouring doesn't seem unrealistic.  The fighting in the Scouring would have been just as brutal as the Heresy itself, and they didn't have the recruiting and training infrastructure some of the other Legions had. 

 

[Vesper]

There's also the clash with the World Eaters, prior to the battle of Prospero.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

All true I suppose any legion only recruiting from one homeworld are not going to grow very fast.

Execept that you dislike the guys who would win that fight. . .

He might struggle against post eye or terror Lorgar who, admittedly, does somehow figure out how to be a good fighter but against Alpharus? Provided it was a straight fight, and Alpharus wasnt just hanging out on Nocturne poisoning his water or something, he would end up roasting on a spit over Mount Deathfire.

[BTIitiate]

 

It's the same with Leman Russ.  There's never been any indication that he thought the strategies of the Codex were bad.  Only that he didn't like 10x100 company structure of a chapter and decided to do things his own way.

This might be off topic but what happened to the other wolves? They have no second founding chapters apart from the ill fated wolf brothers, yet, they went from legion to chapter strength none the less. Should I talk this to a new post?

 

 

 

It's the same with Leman Russ.  There's never been any indication that he thought the strategies of the Codex were bad.  Only that he didn't like 10x100 company structure of a chapter and decided to do things his own way.

This might be off topic but what happened to the other wolves? They have no second founding chapters apart from the ill fated wolf brothers, yet, they went from legion to chapter strength none the less. Should I talk this to a new post?

Probably hung over :P

 

A fight I would want to see between primarchs...well, I honestly want to see Dorn duke it out with someone, as well as Vulkan-don't really care who against

[Iron Father Ferrum]

All true I suppose any legion only recruiting from one homeworld are not going to grow very fast.

Execept that you dislike the guys who would win that fight. . .

He might struggle against post eye or terror Lorgar who, admittedly, does somehow figure out how to be a good fighter but against Alpharus? Provided it was a straight fight, and Alpharus wasnt just hanging out on Nocturne poisoning his water or something, he would end up roasting on a spit over Mount Deathfire.

That's just my point. When has Alpharius EVER fought fair?

[Deus Imperator Vult]

All true I suppose any legion only recruiting from one homeworld are not going to grow very fast.

Execept that you dislike the guys who would win that fight. . .

He might struggle against post eye or terror Lorgar who, admittedly, does somehow figure out how to be a good fighter but against Alpharus? Provided it was a straight fight, and Alpharus wasnt just hanging out on Nocturne poisoning his water or something, he would end up roasting on a spit over Mount Deathfire.

That's just my point. When has Alpharius EVER fought fair?

I think even in an unfair fight though, so long as it is an acutal fight, Alpharius would struggle. Who knows maybe Vulkan will give him a skull bash when he breaks out of Curzes prison... if that's infact where he is.

[W0lfie]

 

I only know the bit where Dorn does not want to divide his Legion. I missed the bit where he had a problem with a comprehensive manual on Space Marine doctrines.

It's always kind of humorous that people don't realize that the Codex Astartes is a giant tome, with a bunchof different aspects to it.  Dorn didn't like the idea of splitting up the Legions.  He's never been depicted as having any problems with the rest of it.  In fact, the Imperial Fists are depicted in 40K lore as being dedicated Codex users. 

 

It's the same with Leman Russ.  There's never been any indication that he thought the strategies of the Codex were bad.  Only that he didn't like 10x100 company structure of a chapter and decided to do things his own way.

 

There are multiple different parts of Space Marineing that the Codex covers.  Principally, there have been described two parts.

1. Organization, recruitment and training.  Guidelines for how to screen, recruit, and train new Space Marines, with measures for reducing the likelihood of corruption or mutation.  Basically there were flaws in the recruitment system that were believed could have led the Heresy, so the process was codified.

2. Strategy and tactics, with countless examples of different scenarios, so that commanders could combine their own experience with the lessons of the Codex to allow them to adapt strategies for battle.  Of course, there are the ludicrously stupid stories about how Space Marine commanders follow the Codex to the letter and their enemies already know the answer and outmaneuver them.  This isn't the way the Codex was originally described, and well, every license has it's terrible authors, so 40K is no different.

 

"Codex Adherent" has always just meant that a chapter organizes itself 10x100 (or some close approximation) and uses the training and recruitment doctrines in the Codex.  It has nothing to do with the strategy section of the Codex.  Since the Codex is described everywhere except for the bad stories about the Ultramarines as being the reason why the Space Marines have been so successful, it's unlikely that too many chapters actually scorn the Codex Astartes treatises on warfare. 

As to the imperial fists being dedicated codex users...that is AFTER they relented and accepted it.  Before the heresy they were described as having a very rigid, if still very successful, approach to warfare.  Changes from "Really good at doing stuff our way" to "Pretty good at everything" don't happen overnight, or quietly.

 

The differing organization of the codex is only the tip of the iceberg for codex compliance, as far as the Space Wolves go.  They use wargear that doesn't conform to the codex, they send their neophytes at the enemy in a zerg rush, something else not supported by the codex.  They ride wolves into battle!  The obvious "13 companies, each somewhat bigger than a regular company" is only a single factor in space wolf deviancy.

 

Codex Adherent doesn't solely reflect the size of a chapter.  The Blood Angels are considered to be deviant from the codex by most, due to the inclusion of other squad types, and their overuse of honour guard.

 

As a final point on the whole predicting the reaction based on the codex astartes thing...how does it seem implausible to you? It is pretty widely available, if every chapter has access to it (see: Liber Proditor Armorum, it goes to show how easily enemies can get their hands on it), so if they know a certain formation warrants a certain response...why not exploit it? Ultramarines are actually punished for thinking for themselves, planning battles in ways not supported by the codex (pure sillyness; no amount of writing could cover every possibly factor on a battlefield), so they would HAVE to react a certain way.  It's not like the codex randomizes itself ("If the enemy deploy in this formation, select table 5,445,113,112 and roll a D6").

[W0lfie]

 

It's the same with Leman Russ.  There's never been any indication that he thought the strategies of the Codex were bad.  Only that he didn't like 10x100 company structure of a chapter and decided to do things his own way.

This might be off topic but what happened to the other wolves? They have no second founding chapters apart from the ill fated wolf brothers, yet, they went from legion to chapter strength none the less. Should I talk this to a new post?

Well given that they were the smallest legion (around 1k per great company) and had to go and fight a legion of sorcerers on their home planet, the took place in the scouring, then had Fenris invaded by Magnus two thousand years later, it is understandable that they were no longer Legion sized, or even Black Templar sized, anymore.  Since their organization never changed, I suppose you could still consider them a space marine legion...just a REALLY tiny one, as opposed to the other legions which have quite definitively become chapters.

[Vesper]

All true I suppose any legion only recruiting from one homeworld are not going to grow very fast.

Execept that you dislike the guys who would win that fight. . .

He might struggle against post eye or terror Lorgar who, admittedly, does somehow figure out how to be a good fighter but against Alpharus? Provided it was a straight fight, and Alpharus wasnt just hanging out on Nocturne poisoning his water or something, he would end up roasting on a spit over Mount Deathfire.

That's just my point. When has Alpharius EVER fought fair?

I think even in an unfair fight though, so long as it is an acutal fight, Alpharius would struggle. Who knows maybe Vulkan will give him a skull bash when he breaks out of Curzes prison... if that's infact where he is.

Alpharius would most likely stab him at the back of his skull before Vulkan ever notices. Because he's not playing fair at all.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

All true I suppose any legion only recruiting from one homeworld are not going to grow very fast.

Execept that you dislike the guys who would win that fight. . .

He might struggle against post eye or terror Lorgar who, admittedly, does somehow figure out how to be a good fighter but against Alpharus? Provided it was a straight fight, and Alpharus wasnt just hanging out on Nocturne poisoning his water or something, he would end up roasting on a spit over Mount Deathfire.

That's just my point. When has Alpharius EVER fought fair?

I think even in an unfair fight though, so long as it is an acutal fight, Alpharius would struggle. Who knows maybe Vulkan will give him a skull bash when he breaks out of Curzes prison... if that's infact where he is.

Alpharius would most likely stab him at the back of his skull before Vulkan ever notices. Because he's not playing fair at all.

I agree but I am talking about a fight, brother vs brother, not one brother poping out for a stroll only to be stabbed in the back by his stunted little brother who knows nothing of honour. I am not ignoring your points nor am I, as much as I hate them, trying to detract from what the Alpha Legion do just saying that in a fight where both combatants are aware of eachother I can only see it ending one way.

[Billuriye]

Vulkan vs Alpharius is no contest. Vulkan would stomp that Primarchling.

[Vesper]

That's most likely absolutly what Alpharius would want Vulkan to think.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Before shooting him in the mouth.

[Veteran Sergeant]

 

 

Codex Adherent doesn't solely reflect the size of a chapter.  The Blood Angels are considered to be deviant from the codex by most, due to the inclusion of other squad types, and their overuse of honour guard.

 

As a final point on the whole predicting the reaction based on the codex astartes thing...how does it seem implausible to you? It is pretty widely available, if every chapter has access to it (see: Liber Proditor Armorum, it goes to show how easily enemies can get their hands on it), so if they know a certain formation warrants a certain response...why not exploit it? Ultramarines are actually punished for thinking for themselves, planning battles in ways not supported by the codex (pure sillyness; no amount of writing could cover every possibly factor on a battlefield), so they would HAVE to react a certain way.  It's not like the codex randomizes itself ("If the enemy deploy in this formation, select table 5,445,113,112 and roll a D6").

The Blood Angels have alwasy been described as a Codex Chapter, with slight changes made for the Death Company.

 

As far as the second part, you've already recognized the contradiction, so I'm not sure why you're confused as to why I think it's ridiculous and implausible that an enemy commander could know the Space Marine's reactions by memorizing the Codex.

 

The description of the Codex Astartes the way it is in the Ultramarines novels by Graham McNeill has always been ludicrous.  You can't memorize the Codex, because there'd be nothing to memorize.  Warfare cannot be fought in an "If A, Then B" manner because there are dozens, if not hundreds of variables that would need to be taken into account every time.  So yeah, every time you've read that a Chaos commander out-thought the Space Marine Commander because he "knew the Codex", you can instantly throw the BS flag, lol.  Because that's just bad writing from an inexperienced and unqualified author.  

 

It's just a fair thing to say that you can pretty much waste bin the entire Ultramarines novel series as garbage nearly on par with Battle for the Abyss.  ;) 

[W0lfie]

 

 

Codex Adherent doesn't solely reflect the size of a chapter.  The Blood Angels are considered to be deviant from the codex by most, due to the inclusion of other squad types, and their overuse of honour guard.

 

As a final point on the whole predicting the reaction based on the codex astartes thing...how does it seem implausible to you? It is pretty widely available, if every chapter has access to it (see: Liber Proditor Armorum, it goes to show how easily enemies can get their hands on it), so if they know a certain formation warrants a certain response...why not exploit it? Ultramarines are actually punished for thinking for themselves, planning battles in ways not supported by the codex (pure sillyness; no amount of writing could cover every possibly factor on a battlefield), so they would HAVE to react a certain way.  It's not like the codex randomizes itself ("If the enemy deploy in this formation, select table 5,445,113,112 and roll a D6").

 

As far as the second part, you've already recognized the contradiction, so I'm not sure why you're confused as to why I think it's ridiculous and implausible that an enemy commander could know the Space Marine's reactions by memorizing the Codex.

The codex astartes, as described in the Ultramarines series you so loath (I wasn't a fan of it either [except for Courage and Honour because Tau], but that doesn't change the fact that it is the fluff we are given) does conform to the "if A then B" model.  Therefore if the Chaos fleet knew that formation A would trigger reaction B, they could account for that in their planning and create a trap.  The fact the they tried to write a treatise on warfare that covered every possible scenario under the sun is ludicrous, but fluff wise they somehow did just that.  Even if it were more vague, they could still take advantage of it (though assuming the A then B model doesn't apply, it would be more a strategic then a tactical advantage).  Knowing that an aggressive push towards the core of the system would force them to respond with a certain defensive formation AND ONLY THAT ONE CERTAIN DEFENSIVE formation, they can take the advantage.  Even if they only know for a fact that those silly book worshipping Ultramarines would react defensively, rather than specifically how, they could still advance with all confidence towards the centre of the system, completely unmolested.

[Legatus]

The reason why Codex predictability makes no sense (and why Graham McNeill should never be allowed to write about Ultramarines or the Codex) is that the "right" approach to be chosen depends on a myriad of different deciding factors. And it is up to the Space Marine Commander to determine and assess those factors. What is the opposition? What is the terrain? What is the objective? Each of those questions can be divided into hundreds of smaller facets. And here comes the important part: The Space Marine Commander will not automatically be aware of all the details. He has to find out about the opposing forces. He has to find out about the terrain or wheather patterns. He has to determine what their ultimate goal should be. And he may not allways be able to get full reports on all of those details. But his choice of force composition and tactical approach will depend on what he knows. If he does not know all the details, he cannot choose the "optimal" approach, and can only do the best he can under the circumstances.

 

So, in order for an opposing Commander to reasonably predict the Space Marine Commander's approach, he would not just have to know the terrain and enemy forces (that's the easy part, since he is the commander of said enemy force), he would also have to know the unit and equipment dispositions of the Space Marines. A force with limited fast attack units will choose a different approach than a force with an abundance of fast attack units but a limit of heavy support. The enemy Commander would also have to know what the Space Marine Commander knows about the terrain and his force composition. Does the Space Marine Commander know your force composition? Does he know nothing about it at all? Depending on that, his strategy will be different. And what is the Space Marine Commander's priority? Is it to defend Imperial citizens? Or is it to preserve the Imperial holy sites? Or to destroy the enemy at all cost? That priority will differ from Chapter to Chapter, or even from Commander to Commander within the same Chapter, and will also determine the Commander's choice of action.

 

In short, the enemy Commander would have to be able to read the Space Marine Commaner's mind, to know all the information the Space Marine commander is aware of and will base his choice of action on. And when the enemy Commander is able to know all that, then at that point he doesn't really need to know the Codex Astartes, does he?

 

 

Another thing is that the most important decree of the Codex Astartes was the limitation of Space Marine force size. A decree that had the intention to never let any one man command the power of an entire Legion. I.e. the decree is based on the expectation that in the future there would be Space Marine Chapters turning on the Imperium. And such a Chapter would naturally be in possession of a Codex Astartes. You see? The most important decree of the Codex Astartes is founded on the expectation that in the future there will be enemy Space Marine forces in possession of the Codex Astartes. It makes no sense, then, that the Codex Astartes could supposedly so easily be countered if an enemy force were to have possession of it.

[Wade Garrett]

The first Curze-Lion fight wasn't what I'd call a draw, anymore than Corax-Lorgar was. As for "dirty fighting" I must have missed the bit in Savage Weapons where the Haunter and Johnson agreed to the Marquis of Fantailer rules before Lion spitted him like a cocktail weiner.

 

As to the Dorn-Guilliman issue, in all fairness to Rob, Rogal was not in what you'd call a happy place mentally, it was more a case of a problem looking for an excuse to happen than anything Guilliman did or didn't do.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

The first Curze-Lion fight wasn't what I'd call a draw, anymore than Corax-Lorgar was. As for "dirty fighting" I must have missed the bit in Savage Weapons where the Haunter and Johnson agreed to the Marquis of Fantailer rules before Lion spitted him like a cocktail weiner.

 

As to the Dorn-Guilliman issue, in all fairness to Rob, Rogal was not in what you'd call a happy place mentally, it was more a case of a problem looking for an excuse to happen than anything Guilliman did or didn't do.

The only thing I will say for the Lion's unprovoked attack is he did appologise for it before hand. Other, more warey, Primarchs would perhaps have stepped back at that point.

 

Thats true Dorn was still feeling like Gulliman slapped him in the face by saving him from the Iron Cage aswell and as wade says he wasn't exactly a happy bunny plugging himself into the pain glove for days on end.