the emperor really saved angron?

[yhta]

ok, one of the fundamental thing that make angron hate his father is the fact that the emperor take him went is friends most need it, now i ask, is really angron need saving?

 

Because he is a primarch, and not only a primarch but the most angriest of all who is pretty much a killing machine, did you think the army he is going to face have a chance? yeah his friends maybe die but i thinkg angron could easy destroy that army,

 

so a this point, why the emperor actualy take him in that way? he cared his son or just want him back to leads the war hounds?

[Kol Saresk]

It's debatable on whether or not Angron would have survived. But even then, there several different ways the Emperor could have gone about it, one of them being a personal direct intervention. Another would have been sending in the War Hounds. But, he didn't.

[Wade Garrett]

Well, given Dorn's demise it seems that "Drown him in bodies" is a workable option in dealing with Primarchs, and given that the culture fielding the army was technologically advanced enough to create cyborg gladiators...

[Legatus]

The ruling class of Angron's world had already captured him and had implanted a device into his head. They were also described as technologically advanced. They would probably have been able to take him out, once they had cornered him.

[Legionator]

Big E could save Angron and his warriors, but in this case it is strongly possible that Angron would blame the Emperor fot stealing his honor and glory. Thanks to the Butcher's Nails, Angron had become nothing more than a butcher. He didn't have any virtue besides his anger.

[Nehekhare]

@Legionator: but that's exactly what happened, exept that he also blamed E for letting his friends die. if he didn't have any virtue, how come he had honor to loose?

 

So many people think angron is a cardboard character, always angry, all the time and nothing more, and then wonder why E did what he did. But if you accept that Angron knew he was damaged and even more so the universe he lived in, that there are no lofty ideals that matter, his decision to die with his brothers does not only make sense in regards to his personality, but also explains the emperor's actions - he would not let his defiant child be wasted, when he needed it for his crusade, and made a point of not taking a "no" for an answer in not saving angron's friends.

[Legionator]

@Legionator: but that's exactly what happened, exept that he also blamed E for letting his friends die. if he didn't have any virtue, how come he had honor to loose?

 

So many people think angron is a cardboard character, always angry, all the time and nothing more, and then wonder why E did what he did. But if you accept that Angron knew he was damaged and even more so the universe he lived in, that there are no lofty ideals that matter, his decision to die with his brothers does not only make sense in regards to his personality, but also explains the emperor's actions - he would not let his defiant child be wasted, when he needed it for his crusade, and made a point of not taking a "no" for an answer in not saving angron's friends.

A man who values honour doesn't virus bomb his own sons or sacrifice his own librarians to become a daemon prince. Angron's honour is hollow, just an excuse for his betrayal.

[Billuriye]

A man who values honour doesn't virus bomb his own sons or sacrifice his own librarians to become a daemon prince. Angron's honour is hollow, just an excuse for his betrayal.

Whaaa? Where did he do any of those?

[Brother Captain Ming]

Isstvan 3, Horus' flagship wasn't the only vessel, nor was his fleet the only fleet to drop virus bombs.
As for the librarians part, I'm not sure...

 

 

But, I have heard that at the end of Betrayer Angron becomes a daemon prince.  I'm not sure how he does it, or what exactly happens to the librarians, so that's all I know about that.

 

[Tenebris]

Overall, it is a poor plot device to make a dent in Angron's character, a dent later exploited to turn him to Chaos.

 

Now my interpretation of the whole Nuceria thing is an extension of what Nehekhare has already said, the Emperor does not take a NO for an answer. To the Emperor the whole battle must have been seen like a trivial thing, a thing not worthy even of the attention of an astartes legion but a thing that could severely endanger his primarch project, his creation Angron. When Big E confronted his wayward son it was soon clear to him than Angron is a beast barely in control, a being who at the time of the battle was unreasonable and I would dare say unable to comprehend what exactly was happening above in the orbit of Nuceria. I doubt that the Emperor would have not used some manner of diplomacy with Angron but seen the ravaged state his son was, the exaltation of battle and son's honor code he deemed wise to sequester Angron from the slaughter. 

 

I understand that a warrior like Angron would have not taken the thing lightly, not as an affront to him as per se but as an affront to the warriors he helped to train, create and lead into battle, it was the betrayal of a cause and not a betrayal of Angron as a man. Even to the Red Angel it was clear that he would not survive the battle with the lords of the cities but he stood his ground in dogged defiance, he desired a token of justice for his slave kin, a justice that the Emperor was neither able to comprehend nor willing to risk for. 

 

Angron was a vast investment of imperial funds and the Emperor's time. Big E would never, ever sacrifice all this and the genetic stability of the XIIth Legion for a trivial conflict between a noble caste and salvefolk, just as it might be, Angron was needed back in imperial hands and thus he was beamed on the imperial ship while his kin was killed in the battle.

 

 

 

Said that it is good to expand on the very character of Angron, he is neither just or noble, he is a warrior, his legion are not soldiers, they are warriors. A warrior is not required to pose as a learned person, uphold any ideals or display any diplomacy, a warrior is required to fight and to die and that is exactly the mindset of Angron. His legion is the very embodiment of the concept warrior, a caste of people who mastered the arts of war and are the craftsmen of death. Their purpose is to kill and to kill on command, everything else in meaningless. The act of waging war is void of philosophy or ideology, it is simply the act of burrowing an axe in your enemy's skull. 

 

What let Angron to side with Horus was the betrayal of the warrior ideal, the astartes are warriors and without an Emperor to guide them in battle all of the sudden the XII lacked of purpose despite the elevation of Horus as the Warmaster. I presume that Angron was contrary to the purge by virus bombing but even he could understand that to purge a force of several thousand astartes a sinister and massive attack was needed, thus his acknowledgement of the virus bombing. As soon as the haze of death fell and it was clear that some survivors made it trough the bombardment Angron once again became the warrior and decreed on his own to grant the survivors the honorable death that they deserved, with the kiss of Gorefather as his parting gift. 

 

Still bear in mind that Angron is a Primarch, a being engineered both in mind and body for a specific purpose in the Emperor's grand plan. He was the butcher, the warrior, the killer and nothing else, his purpose was to do what even other legions would frown upon, a blunt weapon but a weapon nonetheless. This very trait was than passed onto his astartes and it was soon clear that when there was blood to spill innocent or no, the World Eaters would do it.

 

As a Primarch he is a demigod, a being possessed by supreme might, intelligence and power. He well knew all the intricacies of war, the many instruments of war and the need for tactics and strategy, but he also knew that sometimes a direct action is needed, a situation arised when a soldier was useless and a warrior was needed. He was that warrior. 

[Grotsmasha]

Just because Angron had no sense of honour by the Heresy doesn't mean he didn't have it at the time the Big E found him.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Wade Garrett]

"If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. That's Angron's way, the XII Legion way. The best way. THE CRIMSON PATH BEFORE THE IRON FETTER!"

[Kol Saresk]

Pardon me, but what does honor say about Traitors?

[Conn Eremon]

Angron was facing an immense, well-armed, well-armored, well-trained, technologically advanced army with a ragtag group of exhausted, weakened gladiators who were barely able to keep themselves together or from having their surgically implanted hardware turning them into raging killing machines among their own brothers and who have spent their lives training only to fight a very specific type of foe and would therefore be wholly unprepared for the approaching army.

 

Yeah, Angron would have died. He would have taken a lot down with him, but he was doomed to fail. 

 

It's debatable on whether or not Angron would have survived. But even then, there several different ways the Emperor could have gone about it, one of them being a personal direct intervention. Another would have been sending in the War Hounds. But, he didn't.

 

One is being used by Aurelius and the other by myself and fellow co-writers to create a Loyalist Angron. Not all that relevant, but made me go 'Huh.'

[Wade Garrett]

Pardon me, but what does honor say about Traitors?

"To betray a betrayer is counted as no sin."

One of the few words of wisedom ever uttered by that pack of mongrels that follow at Russ's heels. The XII is as it always was, it is your Emperor who turned on us, who sought to yoke and chain us as a reward for winning Him this galaxy. We are the Eaters of Worlds, and we kneel to no one.

[Legionator]

Just because Angron had no sense of honour by the Heresy doesn't mean he didn't have it at the time the Big E found him.

 

Cheers,

Jono

 

I think Angron was tormented by butcher's nails and he was aware of the fact that he couldn't be saved. Thus he wanted to die. The Emperor, whether for his touchy paternal feelings or from his pure pragmatism, didn't allowed this. So, Angron surrendered himself to blood fenzy. He lost his honour long before the heresy, when he forced his own sons to use Butcher's nails, when he didn't care for his sons' lives and just throw them to enemy.

 

The case of sacrificing librarians is here, in "Flaws" section: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Butcher%27s_Nails

[Vardus]

Pardon me, but what does honor say about Traitors?

 

As history is always written by the victors, the Traitors can always be portrayed as honourless. At some point some if not all the traitor Primarchs had honour, the corrupting influence of Chaos then eroded or used this to bring them down.

 

 

 

 

@Legionator: but that's exactly what happened, exept that he also blamed E for letting his friends die. if he didn't have any virtue, how come he had honor to loose?

 

So many people think angron is a cardboard character, always angry, all the time and nothing more, and then wonder why E did what he did. But if you accept that Angron knew he was damaged and even more so the universe he lived in, that there are no lofty ideals that matter, his decision to die with his brothers does not only make sense in regards to his personality, but also explains the emperor's actions - he would not let his defiant child be wasted, when he needed it for his crusade, and made a point of not taking a "no" for an answer in not saving angron's friends.

A man who values honour doesn't virus bomb his own sons or sacrifice his own librarians to become a daemon prince. Angron's honour is hollow, just an excuse for his betrayal.

 

Angron's actions after the virus bombing, to me at least, suggest that he did have honour, most certainly this is being eroded by his loyalty to Horus and the corruption being spread by the warrior lodges. As for the librarians, again we are further down the path of corruption and influence of Chaos.

[Nehekhare]

A man who values honour doesn't virus bomb his own sons or sacrifice his own librarians to become a daemon prince.

You seem quite quick to pass judgement. 3 things:

1) Angron was the first to make planetfall personally on istvaan II to grant his sons an honorable death by his own hands. 

2) The world eater psykers weren't sacrificed. most didn take the nails well and went nuclear. The rest were killed of by Lorgar, not Angron, in Betrayer.

3) Roboute Guilliman, whom some may consider honorable, dropped nuclear bombs on a city full of innocent humans in the name of the emperor (Monachia) and went on to slaughter any surviving imperial citizens on the planet save one, just to humble Lorgar's religious fervor towards his father (which ironically later became known as the imperial creed). It was the beginning of the Heresy.  

[Wade Garrett]

While normally I am the first to cast aspersions on the Git of Maccrage, he and the XIII did not kill everybody but Cyrene on Khur. They did force the inhabitants out of the cities at bolted point and summarily execute anyone who resisted, and they destroyed everything on the world that would support industrialized civilization, but it wasn't a purge of the entire populace.

[Legionator]

 

A man who values honour doesn't virus bomb his own sons or sacrifice his own librarians to become a daemon prince.

You seem quite quick to pass judgement. 3 things:

1) Angron was the first to make planetfall personally on istvaan II to grant his sons an honorable death by his own hands. 

2) The world eater psykers weren't sacrificed. most didn take the nails well and went nuclear. The rest were killed of by Lorgar, not Angron, in Betrayer.

3) Roboute Guilliman, whom some may consider honorable, dropped nuclear bombs on a city full of innocent humans in the name of the emperor (Monachia) and went on to slaughter any surviving imperial citizens on the planet save one, just to humble Lorgar's religious fervor towards his father (which ironically later became known as the imperial creed). It was the beginning of the Heresy.  

1) Virus bomb your on sons, then learn that not all of them are dead, get furious, make a planetfall for kill them. With respect, but it didn't sound me like an honourable deed.

 

2) I didn't read Betrayer, the source I look says "By the beginning of the Horus Heresy in the early 31st Millennium, there were only 19 Librarians left within the entirety of the XII Legion. They considered themselves War Hounds rather than World Eaters on account of their lack of the Butcher’s Nails. But their fate was sealed upon the homeworld of Angron's youth, where they were brutally murdered by their own Primarch after his apotheosis to become a Daemon Prince, removing their psychic taint from the World Eaters forever and sealing their bloody pact with the Blood God as his loyal servants." It could be wrong. But still Angron is responsible for downfall of his legion.

 

3) R.G. evaucated civilians before bombing the city, and he bombed the city by the will of the Emperor. Not for his own bloody joy.

[Wade Garrett]

"I see the shadow of a smile on your lips. These others do not know you as I do, brother. Our sons may not see the amusement in your eyes, but I am not blind to such nuance."

 

Lorgar Aurelian, addressing Roboute Guilliman in the aftermath of the Razing of Monarchical.

[Legionator]

"I see the shadow of a smile on your lips. These others do not know you as I do, brother. Our sons may not see the amusement in your eyes, but I am not blind to such nuance."

 

Lorgar Aurelian, addressing Roboute Guilliman in the aftermath of the Razing of Monarchical.

 

An accusation from a paranoid, ultra religious weakling. Such a convincing proof.

[Nehekhare]

With respect, but it didn't sound me like an honourable deed.

1) HH1: betrayal, p. 158: "The virus bombardment had seemed cowardly to Angron; if they were to cull their own Legions they should have done it with their own hands"

 

2) Betrayer ch.23: Angron kills the last WE psykers when he sees them attacking his Brother Lorgar, not for sacrifice. 

 

3) what a good son, just following orders, as always...the planet khur was then subjected to exterminatus during the great scouring of the 31st millennium.

[Calgar 2.0]

Isstvan 3, Horus' flagship wasn't the only vessel, nor was his fleet the only fleet to drop virus bombs.

As for the librarians part, I'm not sure...

 

 

But, I have heard that at the end of Betrayer Angron becomes a daemon prince.  I'm not sure how he does it, or what exactly happens to the librarians, so that's all I know about that.

 

 

Don't forget

 

 

He also dropped to the planet to take care of stragglers, even though Horus told him not to.

 

[Wade Garrett]

 

An accusation from a paranoid, ultra religious weakling. Such a convincing proof.

 

Maybe if Guilliman had been a little more cautious or a bit more respectful of the unseen world, he wouldn't have been blasted all over the Calth orbital complex by a senior citizen semi Astartes.