the emperor really saved angron?

[Demus Ragnok]

I chuckle every time people bring up the Ultras destroying Monarchia. Lorgar's adopted dad and his resident therapist brought about the heresy all by themselves and everyone jumps Guilliman for smirking at Lorgar's crybaby temper tantrum.

 

I look at it this way, the heresy, emperor, the primarchs, the legions. They are like any other large family. When things go bad, chances are that everyone is to blame.

[endless]

Surely the problem with Angron is that he had been altered, he is catergorically not what was planned.  The 'Nails' are an additional problem from which he needs saving.  The danger is less physical, more psychological.  However, having liberated Angron, the Emperor sees how useful such damaged goods could be, as he does with many of the other Primarchs.  Short term gain, long term...

[Blacksad]

I find it funny that some people here claim Angron has no honour. It makes it blatantly obvious that those people have a very narrowminded vieuw of honour...

 

narrowminded as in: " if it's not MY vieuw of what honour entails, if it does not follow MY code of honour, it's no honour."

 

 

you sirs, are dolts.

[Wade Garrett]

 

I chuckle every time people bring up the Ultras destroying Monarchia. Lorgar's adopted dad and his resident therapist brought about the heresy all by themselves and everyone jumps Guilliman for smirking at Lorgar's crybaby temper tantrum.

If Lorgar threw a crybaby temper tantrum over Monarchia, what shall we call Rob's response to Calth? He completely loses his cool and almost gets himself killed TWICE by virtue of his brilliant logistical strategy of "ME GUILLIMAN! ME SMASH PUNY WORD BEARERS!", although not before finding time to insult Leman Russ for some reason or other.

 

Corax on Isstvan is an instructive lesson in the proper way to handle such a thing (by fighting with your brain, not your cojones and wounded pride. Lest we forget, by not devolving to "ME SMASH HERETICS!" Corax came closer to killing Lorgar than Guilliman ever got to offing Kor.)

 

Edit:

And right now I'm just ranting because MY FAVORITE PRIMARCH IS THE BEST PRIMARCH! HOW DARE YOU CRITICIZE THE BEST PRIMARCH! which isn't doing much for anybody. Any way I can bow out of this gracefully?

[Sgt.Sangha]

I would like to point out in Betrayer when Lorgar and Guilliman meet Lorgar acknowledges the simple fact that Guilliman did not hate him until that moment, that when they met in perfect city Lorgar made a mistake. Also take into note that the first heretic is from the WB perspective not from the 13th.  

[Wade Garrett]

All right, I said I was going to bow out...right after this!

 

Monarchica, from the Ultramarine POV

 

A terrible sadness filled Roboute Guilliman's eyes as he surveyed the ruins of the perfect city.

"Brother," the XIII Primarch said, "we must move forward togather, so something like this..."

 

"Losers!" Lorgar shouted, kicking a puppy that had somehow survived the orbital bombardment. "If the people of this city had true faith, they would have died fighting you heathens!" The lord of the Word Bearers twirled his mustache, then suddenly pointed to something behind the Master of Maccrage. "Is that a horribly injured seventeen year old girl over there?"

 

"Oh my goodness!" Guilliman exclaimed, whirling around to see what Lorgar was pointing at, "Apocetharies! We need...brother. I don't see any..."

 

"MADE YOU LOOK, SUCKER!' Lorgar shouted as he brought Illuminarium down on Guilliman's head.

[Kol Saresk]

Pardon me on the whole "Angron honor" thing, but Angron was never loyal to the Emperor. His view of honor is that one lives by the sword and dies by the sword. The Emperor sullied that honor when he teleported Angron away from the battlefield and left the Eaters of Cities to die.

 

Yes, Khârn convinced Angron to give being a Primarch a chance when he promised that the War Hounds would become the Eaters of Worlds, learn the Twisting Rope(I think that's what it was called) and let the Nails be hammered into their skulls. I think that's something people forget, the World Eaters were volunteers.

 

But still, Angron was never loyal to the Emperor. To him, the Traitors are the World Eaters that died on Istvaan III and the War Hounds and Librarians who died on his homeworld that are the Traitors because they betrayed him. Not the other way around. And by letting them die in battle, to Angron he was granting them the most honorable death imaginable for a bunch of traitors. So Angron does have honor, just not as how we see it.

 

And ultimately, that's the biggest thing about 40k. As long as the theory can be supported by fluff, the theory is "right" because that is how we see it. It might not be the viewpoint the author intended, it might not be the same viewpoint as the person next you or even across the globe. But it is yours.

 

EDIT: Gulliman and Lorgar thing, Monarchia was a blunderbuss. For Lorgar, it was a test of his will and his will broke. Some of the Word Bearers would grow to hate Guilliman and the Ultramarines, some wouldn't care just as Lorgar ultimately didn't. He made a mistake when he thought Guilliman would be at Calth a bit longer. That was obvious by the whole "You aren't supposed to be here." routine.

 

For Guilliman, it was a matter of revenge. He had been raised to keep his humors in check. Not ignore them, just that he acts on logical thought. But when Calth happened, he suddenly lost room for thought. For the first time in his life, emotion took the high ground. It wasn't that he couldn't think, just that his logical thought processes became clouded by the need to avenge his sons. So he too made mistakes.

 

But ultimately, there will be no true right or wrong because what is "right" and what is "wrong" all depends on the person viewing the situation.

[Legionator]

Pardon me on the whole "Angron honor" thing, but Angron was never loyal to the Emperor. His view of honor is that one lives by the sword and dies by the sword. The Emperor sullied that honor when he teleported Angron away from the battlefield and left the Eaters of Cities to die.

 

Yes, Khârn convinced Angron to give being a Primarch a chance when he promised that the War Hounds would become the Eaters of Worlds, learn the Twisting Rope(I think that's what it was called) and let the Nails be hammered into their skulls. I think that's something people forget, the World Eaters were volunteers.

 

But still, Angron was never loyal to the Emperor. To him, the Traitors are the World Eaters that died on Istvaan III and the War Hounds and Librarians who died on his homeworld that are the Traitors because they betrayed him. Not the other way around. And by letting them die in battle, to Angron he was granting them the most honorable death imaginable for a bunch of traitors. So Angron does have honor, just not as how we see it.

 

And ultimately, that's the biggest thing about 40k. As long as the theory can be supported by fluff, the theory is "right" because that is how we see it. It might not be the viewpoint the author intended, it might not be the same viewpoint as the person next you or even across the globe. But it is yours.

 

EDIT: Gulliman and Lorgar thing, Monarchia was a blunderbuss. For Lorgar, it was a test of his will and his will broke. Some of the Word Bearers would grow to hate Guilliman and the Ultramarines, some wouldn't care just as Lorgar ultimately didn't. He made a mistake when he thought Guilliman would be at Calth a bit longer. That was obvious by the whole "You aren't supposed to be here." routine.

 

For Guilliman, it was a matter of revenge. He had been raised to keep his humors in check. Not ignore them, just that he acts on logical thought. But when Calth happened, he suddenly lost room for thought. For the first time in his life, emotion took the high ground. It wasn't that he couldn't think, just that his logical thought processes became clouded by the need to avenge his sons. So he too made mistakes.

 

But ultimately, there will be no true right or wrong because what is "right" and what is "wrong" all depends on the person viewing the situation.

 

World Eaters accepted the nails, even librarians accepted them despite the certain death. They did it because they respected their father and tried pleasing him. As a reward, one third of them virus bombed and massacred while the others were reduced to mindless savages. Sanguinius was a man of honor, he cared for his sons, struggled for curing their flaw. Angron on the other hand, just ruined his own legion and didn't even care. There is nothing like "his view of honor". Honour of a commander is a certain thing: He needs to obey his superiors (in this case the Big E) and protect his inferiors (his legion). Angron failed them both. 

 

Istvaan III loyalists were'nt traitor to Angron. All of them could lay down their lives for their primarch. Angron didn't even gice them an honourable death. He could fight them in gladiator pits in his ships etc. But he didn't. 

[Kol Saresk]

Actually, Istvaan III wasn't just about randomly killing members of his own Legion. It was about purging the ranks of any who were suspected of being more loyal to the Emperor than tothe Primarchs. How the Librarians escaped that, I haven't the faintest idea. But to someone like Angron, wearing his Legion colors and claiming to be his son yet being more loyal to someone else, that was betrayal.

 

As I said, we can't look at this from our point of view. We have to look at it from his. We have to understand his motives and what he considers to be honor. In his mind, dying in battle fulfills honor. Doesn't matter how as long as it happens. They weren't supposed to know the bombing was happening. It was all supposed to be over oh-so-quickly. But they survived. And that's when he took a personal approach.

 

Of course, if honor is about protecting his inferiors, one could argue that the Emperor failed at that. He did not protect Humanity from Chaos. In fact, he made Humanity the perfect breeding ground. The Emperor did not protect his sons. The moment he crushed Lorgar's resolve, he helped cast Lorgar into the abyss. Yes, it was Lorgar's choice to walk there. But the choice most likely would not have existe if it wasn't for Monarchia. The same with Magnus and Nikea. Angron and Nuceria. Mortarion and Barbarus. And the list goes on.

 

Only two of the Traitor Primarchs could claim that they had no true quarrel with the Emperor and that was Horus and Fulgrim, both of whom required a more personal touch to be turned. Horus, needed Davin. Fulgrim needed the Laer sword.

 

But see, that's the thing about 40k. Everything is perception. There is no black and white. What is honorable to one is not honorable to another. Look at how you view honor compared to how I believe Angron thought about it. Everything is gray and what it is can change depending on who is looking.

 

To some, the Emperor ordering the death of millions and millions of humans is worth the cost of saving billions upon billions. To some, maybe. To others, he is still a bloodthirsty warmonger.

 

To you, Angron has no honor. You believe his honor must be similar to an old knight's code of chivalry concerning combat: an "honorable" duel between two combatants. To me, his code of honor was to live and die on the battlefield. Doesn't matter how, only that it happened on the battlefield. Angron's motto is probably very similar to a quote from a very famous Klingon: "Today is a good day to die."

 

Angron was a gladiator. Very rarely were gladiatorial matches one on one, or even fair fights. His honor reflects that. He lives to fight. Not only that, but he lives to die fighting.

[Nehekhare]

I think this says it all:

 

‘Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honour, courage and honour, courage and honour. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom that enslaves you, no matter that their armies overshadow yours by ten thousand to one. You know nothing of courage. Honour is resisting a tyrant when all others suckle and grow fat on the hypocrisy he feeds them. You know nothing of honour.’

-Angron to Guilliman when he kicks his ass in Betrayer

[Marshall Bretton]

angron has a very simple and brutal code of honour, it basically comes down to "live by the sword, die by the sword"

it's not my code of honour, its extremely basic and barbaric, but it is a code of honour and i can respect him for it

 

and also in betrayer

guilliman did pretty damn well given he was basically fighting lorgar and angron at the same time

 

[Billuriye]

I think this says it all:

 

‘Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honour, courage and honour, courage and honour. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom that enslaves you, no matter that their armies overshadow yours by ten thousand to one. You know nothing of courage. Honour is resisting a tyrant when all others suckle and grow fat on the hypocrisy he feeds them. You know nothing of honour.’

-Angron to Guilliman when he kicks his ass in Betrayer

 

So we are stuck with Angron's insipid and shallow definitions of courage and honour? No thanks. Besides he can't even fit to his own standards. 

[Legionator]

I think this says it all:

‘Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honour, courage and honour, courage and honour. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom that enslaves you, no matter that their armies overshadow yours by ten thousand to one. You know nothing of courage. Honour is resisting a tyrant when all others suckle and grow fat on the hypocrisy he feeds them. You know nothing of honour.’

-Angron to Guilliman when he kicks his ass in Betrayer

Yeah yeah. We know his courage and honour from Istvaan III and Istvaan V. The way he dealed with his sons and Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Salamanders was so courageous and honourable.

"Loyalty is its own reward." - Lion El'Jonson. Now come and see the meaning of "honour" ye traitors

@Kol_Saresk: Grandpa tried to protect his subjects, you can consider him as failed but at least he tried. He is still suffering for mankind. Angron deliberately damned his sons.

[Nehekhare]

Angron stood up to a fascist dictator who tried to subjugate him into furthering his agenda of galaxy-wide tyranny. You seem to imply that it was more honorable to be a good nazi and play along...?

[Legionator]

Angron stood up to a fascist dictator who tried to subjugate him into furthering his agenda of galaxy-wide tyranny. You seem to imply that it was more honorable to be a good nazi and play along...?

Yeah, Angron was a freedom fighter. He is the Che Guevera of 31th century and Khorne is the god of freedom, liberty, equality and hippies.

[Billuriye]

Angron stood up to a fascist dictator who tried to subjugate him into furthering his agenda of galaxy-wide tyranny. You seem to imply that it was more honorable to be a good nazi and play along...?

I'd say he traded one tyrant for the other. He says it himself. Emperor is not your average tyrant anyway. Unlike Horus, he doesn't salivate over the idea of others' subjugation.

[Nehekhare]

opinions, nothing more...

[Calgar 2.0]

 

Angron stood up to a fascist dictator who tried to subjugate him into furthering his agenda of galaxy-wide tyranny. You seem to imply that it was more honorable to be a good nazi and play along...?

I'd say he traded one tyrant for the other. He says it himself. Emperor is not your average tyrant anyway. Unlike Horus, he doesn't salivate over the idea of others' subjugation.

 

He kinda does, but honestly, he is the best choice for humanity's survival, compared to the alternatives.

[Nehekhare]

If anything, Angron's story realistically raises the question whether humanity's survival is a goal worthy to be pursued at all.

[Wade Garrett]

Yeah, Angron was a freedom fighter. He is the Che Guevera of 31th century and Khorne is the god of freedom, liberty, equality and hippies.

You're absolutely correct. From the greatest Bloodthirster to the lowliest cultist, all his servants are equal in the eyes of the Blood God.

KHORNE CARES NOT FROM WHERE THE BLOOD FLOWS, ONLY THAT IT DOES!

[Kol Saresk]

But what were the alternatives? Ally with the Xenos races that would ally with us to fight back Chaos using their superior knowledge and technology while fighting off the xenos that want to fight and leaving the neutral parties alone? You're right, so much worse than serving a "man" who asks that hundreds of thousands of human beings die for him and his dream. At least Chaos is fair. If you have the strength to survive and forge your own path into the future, they will reward you. If you are too weak to survive, well the cost of weakness is death. But the Emperor offers the same thing for simply not following his vision while rewarding nothing of loyalty. Between the three, the first would be ideal. But personally, I'd pick the second due to personal reward.

[Nehekhare]

Or, in the case of Angron, the alternative is to accept that mankind, for all of it's atrocities and hypocrisy, does not deserve to perservere, and rather have your honorable last stand to make your point than play to the vanity of tyrants.

 

btw you can't fight chaos back - it feeds on your struggle. It was the emotions of the psychic races and their wars that formed the gods of chaos in the first place, mankind having a fair share in their awakening during the dark ages.

 

And last but not least, by the same notion, it was Lorgar's faith as written down in the lectitio divinatus, that made the emperor, as powerful a psyker he may have been before, become the anathema, a warp god of his own, by feeding on the souls of 10,000 psykers each day.

[Wade Garrett]

All this whining about Isstvan...

 

The Red Angel did not kill his lost children with knives in the dark like Lorgar or Alpharius, he granted them a last battle against a formidable foe...something he himself was denied. Had all gone as planned, the Emperor following World Eaters would have passed from reveling in their triumph over the Isstvanians to oblivion before they realized something was awry.

 

As for the Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Salamanders, how, pray tell, did ANGRON act less than honourably? The Twelfth Legion faced them openly and eagerly, it was the XVII, the VIII, the IV, and the XX who hid their posioned blades behind fair seeming masks.

[Veteran Sergeant]

A man who values honour doesn't virus bomb his own sons or sacrifice his own librarians to become a daemon prince.

You seem quite quick to pass judgement. 3 things:

1) Angron was the first to make planetfall personally on istvaan II to grant his sons an honorable death by his own hands.

2) The world eater psykers weren't sacrificed. most didn take the nails well and went nuclear. The rest were killed of by Lorgar, not Angron, in Betrayer.

3) Roboute Guilliman, whom some may consider honorable, dropped nuclear bombs on a city full of innocent humans in the name of the emperor (Monachia) and went on to slaughter any surviving imperial citizens on the planet save one, just to humble Lorgar's religious fervor towards his father (which ironically later became known as the imperial creed). It was the beginning of the Heresy.

How nice of him. After betraying them, he was at least nice enough to kill some of them personally.

Why do you keep insisting on the last lie in your #3? Everybody who has actually read the books (which is probably most people here) knows that the Ultramarines evacuated the city of Monarchia before destroying it from orbit. It isn't like if you just type that out, everyone will forget the way it actually happened.

Ultimately, what people often seem to overlook is that Angron's warriors had no place in the Imperium. They were worse than he was, and unsaveable. The Emprah gains nothing from destroying the planet's functional government, when it can bring it into the fold of the Imperium intact instead.

Of course, this comes back to the fact that the Emprah made two poor choices with Angryon.

1. Save him in the first place. He was an uncontrollable sociopath. I mean, all of the Legions and their primarchs were sociopathic to some extent, but at least most of them were controllable. The World Eaters were just one giant, inefficient, unpredictable variable in power armor. Makes you wonder what the 2 Deleted Legions could have done if Angron was deemed "okay".

2. Not forcibly removing the Butcher's Nails. Why did the Emprah ask for permission? It wasn't like Angryon was better behaved because the Emprah went along with allowing him to keep the Nails. Sure, Angron would probably have been sulky and petulant like Lorgar if he didn't have his angry boosters, but that can't have been a worse option.

Why did the Emperor make these bad decisions? Because Angryon was conceived almost 25 years ago when it was okay to be named Angron since you were angry all the time and the daemon prince of the Chaos God of being angry all the time.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Yeah, Angron was a freedom fighter. He is the Che Guevera of 31th century and Khorne is the god of freedom, liberty, equality and hippies.

You're absolutely correct. From the greatest Bloodthirster to the lowliest cultist, all his servants are equal in the eyes of the Blood God.

KHORNE CARES NOT FROM WHERE THE BLOOD FLOWS, ONLY THAT IT DOES!

I mean, Blood for the Blood God is funny to say if you're running a Chaos army on the tabletop, but sometimes I wonder about you guys who seem to adopt these sort of ideas in a real world discussion of a fictional world.