the emperor really saved angron?

[Nehekhare]

...or "courage and honor" ;)

[Kol Saresk]

Veteran Sergeant is right though, the Ultramarines gave an evacuation order and a decent amount of time to get away. The only people who died were rioters and any who refused the evacuation order.

[Vesper]

 

Yeah, Angron was a freedom fighter. He is the Che Guevera of 31th century and Khorne is the god of freedom, liberty, equality and hippies.

You're absolutely correct. From the greatest Bloodthirster to the lowliest cultist, all his servants are equal in the eyes of the Blood God.

KHORNE CARES NOT FROM WHERE THE BLOOD FLOWS, ONLY THAT IT DOES!

 

 

Communism made awesome.

[Nehekhare]

evacuate first, exterminatus later, emperor eats thousands of psykers every day but angron is bad because of killing some to save his brother, veteran sergeant bitching on about how everybody should stop liking what he dislikes...sorry, lost interest...

[Wade Garrett]

@Veteran Sgt

 

It was either the prosytelize for a fictional deity of war and mayhem rant, or the anti-Communist, [redacted] Che to [redacted] rant.

 

Trust me, you got the lesser of two evils.

[Demus Ragnok]

Me: "You wanna know what the best thing about 40k is?"

 

Myotherself: "Whats that?"

 

Me: "There are no heros."

 

Myotherself: "What about vampires?"

 

Me: "Yeah they have those."

 

Myotherself:"Oh cool, do they sparkle."

 

Me:"Nope".

 

Myotherself:"Awesome".

[Billuriye]

evacuate first, exterminatus later, emperor eats thousands of psykers every day but angron is bad because of killing some to save his brother, veteran sergeant bitching on about how everybody should stop liking what he dislikes...sorry, lost interest...

More like lost the argument.

[Nehekhare]

More like lost the argument.

No, I did win that one.

 

To remind you what the argument was: A man who values honour doesn't virus bomb his own sons or sacrifice his own librarians to become a daemon prince.

 

angron didn't virus bomb (horus did), angron didn't sacrifice (lorgar did), exterminatus on monachia, 10,000 psykers every day = emperor doesn't value honor, angron does.

 

quod erat demonstrandum.

[Legionator]

 

More like lost the argument.

No, I did win that one.

 

To remind you what the argument was: A man who values honour doesn't virus bomb his own sons or sacrifice his own librarians to become a daemon prince.

 

angron didn't virus bomb (horus did), angron didn't sacrifice (lorgar did), exterminatus on monachia, 10,000 psykers every day = emperor doesn't value honor, angron does.

 

quod erat demonstrandum.

Actually I didn't lose the argument because none of you came with a proper argument to justify Istvaan III Treachery.

 

BTW, Emperor doesn't sacrifice thousands of psykers just for his personal delight, he suffers as well. But since he is man of honour, he endures for the sake of his children, humanity.

[Kol Saresk]

So its okay for millions of people to die for one man just because he's "more important?"

 

And since when did we become all about winning an losing? Really? This is supposed to be a forum where fans of the fluff come together to discuss the background and you people are worried about winning and losing a pointless argument when both of you are so narrowminded that even if someone had presented a good argument both of you would have refused simply because it doesn't agree with you. Really? Frikkin really?

 

Y'all are disgusting.

[Legionator]

So its okay for millions of people to die for one man just because he's "more important?"

 

And since when did we become all about winning an losing? Really? This is supposed to be a forum where fans of the fluff come together to discuss the background and you people are worried about winning and losing a pointless argument when both of you are so narrowminded that even if someone had presented a good argument both of you would have refused simply because it doesn't agree with you. Really? Frikkin really?

 

Y'all are disgusting.

Calm down bro. It is rare to see any fruitful argument in the internet. We are just a bit roleplaying, we all know there isn't an immortal god emperor or a bloodthirsty god of chaos.

 

Yes, one man could be more important than millions if his death means death of trillons, even an entire race.

[Kol Saresk]

Then that is not honorable. IIRC the chivalry code of honor, not to mention the argument you put against Angron, a man should put his life before others. He should hold those lives to be more valuable than his.

 

If it is wrong for Angron to kill his sons, then it is wrong for the Emperor to kill his subjects. There is no double-sided policy. It is either right or wrong. Black or white. Day or Night. But that's the thing about 40k, everything is wrong! The only time someone sees something as right is because they see it as right. Everytime someone sees something as justified, it is because they see it as justified, not because you do or don't. Everything is about perception.

 

There is no win or lose because no one can be right or wrong so long as the fluff can support their viewpoint. A D-B wasn't lying when he said a quote of Qui-Gon Jinn fit this medium perfectly: "Your perception is your reality."

 

People can present how Angron had no chivalry code of honor. But that's because he possessed a Gladiator's Honor. The Chivalry is a Ferrari. The Gladiator's Code is a monster truck. Both work. Both exist. But one looks really nice and fancy but didn't een survive the test of time due to lack of maintenance while the other can run through anything until it hits a deep enough bog or something breaks.

 

And Angron's case, Angron broke. He broke the moment the "honorable" Emperor saved him but not his brothers and sisters. His honor was destroyed when he returned home and history said that he had run away when he had been snatched away. His "honor" was sacrificed so the Emperor could have another general.

 

From a neutral standpoint, neither has honor. From my standpoint, there are three answers and all three have been presented.

[Legatus]

Then that is not honorable. IIRC the chivalry code of honor, not to mention the argument you put against Angron, a man should put his life before others. He should hold those lives to be more valuable than his.

 

He does. That's why he is eternally suffering to preserve the existence of the human species. The Emperor is not kept alive because he desparately wants to continue to live in such a sorry state. He is kept alive because without him, travel between human worlds would be almost impossible. Mankind would again succumb to alien and warp forces. Terra would be flooded with daemons entering through the gate beneath the Imperal palace. Jeez, you make ten millennia of suffering on behalf of teh human race sound selfish.

[Kol Saresk]

So wait, he holds the very lives that he demands to be extinguished so that his may live to be more valuable than his own?

 

And yes, demanding ten millenia of suffering of the Human race just so the man in charge of the Human race can get what he wants is selfish. And travel between human worlds is possible without him. The Traitor forces do not use the Astronomicon. If they can move from world to world, so can everyone else. All the Astronomicon does is make it safer, but it still does not remove the perils of traveling through the warp. And maybe Humanity needs to be wiped out. It's not like they are contributing anything productive to the universe. They just kill, kill and kill and use whatever justification that seems right in their own minds to do it.

 

Look at this right here. Some people have come up with ways to justify Angron from his own point of view. You and Legionator are justifying the Emperor from his own point of view. And the irony is that neither of them can be justified by a neutral observer.

[Legatus]

 

And yes, demanding ten millenia of suffering of the Human race just so the man in charge of the Human race can get what he wants is selfish.

Has the human race suffered for the past ten thousand years? The people of Baal? The people of Fenris? The people of Tallarn? What is their day to day suffering on behalf of the Imperium?

Meanwhile, the Emperor suffers each day to allow them to live their lives.

You cannot compare the Emperor and Angron. One suffers to enable mankind to survive, the other wants to kill everything.

 

 

Edit:

I thought about quoting the descritpion of the Emperor and his importance from the 6th Edition rulebook (p. 136/137), but this bit from the 2nd Edition Codex Imperialis is more poignant. The 6th Edition fluff is partially verbatim that of the 2nd Edition Codex Imperialis, interestingly enough.

 

"It is ten thousand years since the Emperor gave his life battling to save Earth from the Warmaster during the last terrifying days of the Horus Heresy. The Emperor's mortal life ended at the moment of Horus' own destruction, yet he did not die. The Emperor's body was put into stasis at the point of death, and though his physical form was crushed and maimed his spirit did not falter. A vast machine was built to sustain him, a device constructed with the long forbidden secrets of ancient technology and arcane lore: the Golden Throne. Its vast structure sustains the Emperor's spirit which watches over and guides humanity from the warp, whilst at the same time battling against the horrific psychic entities which threaten mankind's destruction.

 

Though every day the arcane machines consume many thousands of sacrificial psykers, the ultimate suffering is that of the Emperor himself. For his agonies can never cease. He must endure an endless battle and can never be free of the burden that fate has placed upon his failing spirit. Without him there is nothing."

(2nd Edition Codex Imperialis, p. 11)

 

From the 6th Edition Rulebook:

 

"If the Emperor fails, then none will be able to stop the influx of the dark powers; ravenous and all-consuming Daemons will flood into the galaxy, Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind. Reality as it is known will be subsumed by the stuff of Warp space - a realm of nightmares and cruel insanity where all life will end. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos.

 

The Emperor has neither spoken nor moved since his incarceration in the arcane mechanisms of the Golden Throne. His much-revered material body is, for all intents, dead, and his psychic mind is wholly preoccupied combating the denizens of the Warp. He fights an eternal battle against the unimaginable horrors of that dangerous realm for the preservation of Mankind, keeping closed the rifts that threaten to tear between this reality and the next and holding certain doom at bay. All that is left of the Emperor is a consciousness divorced from the material world, a mind incapable of ordinary communication with his billions of devoted servants. The Emperor has given all that he is so that the Imperium that he founded might continue. And so it has. While it has diverged greatly from his original plans, the Imperium endures."

(6th Edition Rulebook, p. 137)

 

[Kol Saresk]

Oh, so now the argument goes from suffering is necessary to nobody suffers. Gotcha.

 

And neither of those sources say Humanity would die. Just that they would be consumed by the warp. So as I said, Humanity would endure. The Imperium would die, but Humanity would live on.

[Legatus]

Oh, so now the argument goes from suffering is necessary to nobody suffers. Gotcha.

 

There are some who suffer. But not "the human race" is suffering, as you said.

 

 

 

 And neither of those sources say Humanity would die.

 

"Its vast structure sustains the Emperor's spirit which watches over and guides humanity from the warp, whilst at the same time battling against the horrific psychic entities which threaten mankind's destruction."

 

"He must endure an endless battle and can never be free of the burden that fate has placed upon his failing spirit. Without him there is nothing."

 

"If the Emperor fails, then none will be able to stop the influx of the dark powers; ravenous and all-consuming Daemons will flood into the galaxy, Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind."

 

"Reality as it is known will be subsumed by the stuff of Warp space - a realm of nightmares and cruel insanity where all life will end."

 

"He fights an eternal battle against the unimaginable horrors of that dangerous realm for the preservation of Mankind"

 

 

 

 Just that they would be consumed by the warp.

 

Wouldn't that be worse?

[Kol Saresk]

The thing about "threatening" is that it can't always be backed up. Threats are usually empty but tend to be big enough to look scary.

 

And again, what's "worse" depends on the person it is happening to. The person who was born and raised in the Eye, becoming one with the warp wouldn't be so bad. To an Eldar, it'd be worse than hell.

[Wade Garrett]

The people of Fenris?

These would be the people who are forced to subsist as Dark Ages nomadic raiders because the Wolves think that lifestyle produces the strongest Iniates, that Fenris? And from what I remember of Baal, no attempts are made to lift it from its status as a radioactive hellholes of mutation because that produces the kind of Iniates the Blood Angels favor.

 

Noctrune or Maccrage would have been better examples.

 

As for the Emperor's existence being necessary lest the entire human race explode in showers of gore and daemons, I doubt it. The Chaos Gods pre date Emps, if they were that antithetical to our survival we'd have been dead long before the shamans fused togather as the Emperor.

[Kol Saresk]

Well three out of four predate the Emperor. khorne in particular has always been with us.

[Legatus]

The people of Fenris?

 

These would be the people who are forced to subsist as Dark Ages nomadic raiders because the Wolves think that lifestyle produces the strongest Iniates, that Fenris?

 

So... now the Imperium is bad for not interfering with the civilisation on a planet?

 

 

 

 As for the Emperor's existence being necessary lest the entire human race explode in showers of gore and daemons, I doubt it. The Chaos Gods pre date Emps, if they were that antithetical to our survival we'd have been dead long before the shamans fused togather as the Emperor.

 

In the ancient lore, the Emperor was created specifically because the Shamans of old sensed the coming of the Chaos powers. In his early life, it is described how the Chaos powers, even though they were not yet fully sentient, could sense that he was their greatest enemy. The Emperor in turn was aware that humanity was about to undergo a drastic evolution to a more psychically active species, and that that change would make them easy prey for the horrors of the warp.

[Kol Saresk]

In the older lore. How much older lore are we talking about?

[Legatus]

As old as you can get. But if you want to talk about who predates whom, you will have to go back that far. I don't think any of the sources of 2nd or later editions describe the origin of the Chaos Gods or the Emperor.

[Onisuzume]

Eh, I think it is done to liken Angron more after Khorne, who used to be about martial pride and honour before becoming the butcher he is now.

[Kol Saresk]

Well Khorne was never really about martial pride. That is just one of the many aspects his followers have brought to him and is now an integral part of him as much as anything else.