the emperor really saved angron?

[Blood Angel Scout]

Two things:

 

The majority of the landmass on Fenris are continually shifting tectonic plates therefore the population are kind of forced into the continual raiding and reaving lifestyle...

 

and;

 

Khorne was/is just the god of war (and if iirc, also the first of the four to appear) therefore includes acts of courage, honour or orbital bombardment.

[Kol Saresk]

Nocturne is always shifting and they have Sanctuary Cities. ;)

 

According to the background, Khorne was indeed the first of the Chaos Gods to begin to gestate. He was fully concieved during the Middle Ages, probably explains why he hates witches.

 

He is primarily formed by anger in all of its forms: Hate, Violence, etc. usually warriors appeal to him and make up the majority of his followers. As such, he has gained aspects of honor, martial pride, the executioner and so on. You are right as well in saying that killing on as massive a scale as orbital bombardmets or virus bombings would be acceptable as well as long as the motivation is something relating to anger.

[godking]

Two things:

 

The majority of the landmass on Fenris are continually shifting tectonic plates therefore the population are kind of forced into the continual raiding and reaving lifestyle...

 

and;

 

Khorne was/is just the god of war (and if iirc, also the first of the four to appear) therefore includes acts of courage, honour or orbital bombardment.

Leman Russ actively REFUSED imperial help in rectifying this.

[Legionator]

Nocturne is always shifting and they have Sanctuary Cities.

According to the background, Khorne was indeed the first of the Chaos Gods to begin to gestate. He was fully concieved during the Middle Ages, probably explains why he hates witches.

He is primarily formed by anger in all of its forms: Hate, Violence, etc. usually warriors appeal to him and make up the majority of his followers. As such, he has gained aspects of honor, martial pride, the executioner and so on. You are right as well in saying that killing on as massive a scale as orbital bombardmets or virus bombings would be acceptable as well as long as the motivation is something relating to anger.

Is there anything in the fluff about Genghis Khan created Khorne with his massacres and became the first Daemon Prince of Khorne (Doombreed) after his death?

[Augustus]

I think that that is implied IIRC in those limited edition chaos books they created a while back?

[Kol Saresk]

Nocturne is always shifting and they have Sanctuary Cities.

According to the background, Khorne was indeed the first of the Chaos Gods to begin to gestate. He was fully concieved during the Middle Ages, probably explains why he hates witches.

He is primarily formed by anger in all of its forms: Hate, Violence, etc. usually warriors appeal to him and make up the majority of his followers. As such, he has gained aspects of honor, martial pride, the executioner and so on. You are right as well in saying that killing on as massive a scale as orbital bombardmets or virus bombings would be acceptable as well as long as the motivation is something relating to anger.

Is there anything in the fluff about Genghis Khan created Khorne with his massacres and became the first Daemon Prince of Khorne (Doombreed) after his death?

no, Genghis Khan did not create Khorne. Khorne was there since "man first killed his brother in rage."

IIRC, Doombreed is heavily implied to be Genghis Khan and that when he ascended, he was the final piece of the puzzle that saw Khorne become fully sentient.

[Vesper]

Nocturne is always shifting and they have Sanctuary Cities.

According to the background, Khorne was indeed the first of the Chaos Gods to begin to gestate. He was fully concieved during the Middle Ages, probably explains why he hates witches.

He is primarily formed by anger in all of its forms: Hate, Violence, etc. usually warriors appeal to him and make up the majority of his followers. As such, he has gained aspects of honor, martial pride, the executioner and so on. You are right as well in saying that killing on as massive a scale as orbital bombardmets or virus bombings would be acceptable as well as long as the motivation is something relating to anger.

I think it's less about anger and more about the blood-shedding no matter what.

From the insane variety of the followers of Khorne (Death Cults, Berzerkers, Blood Pact and such), we can see were the power of Khorne lies :

Martial pride, discipline, anger, honor, war as a way of life, the survival of the strongest, the development of oneself through martial skills...

[Wade Garrett]

Have I mentioned how silly it is for Khorne and Nurgle to be spawned by the plagues and wars of a single planet, while it took a galaxy wide eldar orgy to wake Slaanesh?

[Legionator]

Have I mentioned how silly it is for Khorne and Nurgle to be spawned by the plagues and wars of a single planet, while it took a galaxy wide eldar orgy to wake Slaanesh?

I agree.  Genghis Khan just killed a few millions, it is nothing comparing to Old Ones - Necron War. Also Genghis Khan is national hero of Mongolia and praised by some Turks. It is a bit insulting to picture him as a daemon prince. 

[Veteran Sergeant]

, veteran sergeant bitching on about how everybody should stop liking what he dislikes...

Wait, what?  Are you mad that I pointed out about how you intentionally misrepresented the events on Monarchia?  Because I certainly didn't bitch about what people like or don't like.  All I did was simply point out how silly Angron's back story is, and that the reason it is the way it is, is because it originated back in a day when the timeline wasn't nearly so serious as it is now.  When primarchs could be named after sexually frustrated gay English poets, or Iron Hand, Primarch of the Iron Hands.  A lot of the Rogue Trader fluff was a little goofy.  I actually like most of it.  However, most of it won't hold up under any serious critical review.  Unlike some people, I can like something, and poke fun of it for being silly at the same time. 

 

 

Have I mentioned how silly it is for Khorne and Nurgle to be spawned by the plagues and wars of a single planet, while it took a galaxy wide eldar orgy to wake Slaanesh?

I agree.  Genghis Khan just killed a few millions, it is nothing comparing to Old Ones - Necron War. Also Genghis Khan is national hero of Mongolia and praised by some Turks. It is a bit insulting to picture him as a daemon prince. 

I don't know.  History has not looked kindly on how he totally ravaged Oshman's Sporting Goods.

[Wade Garrett]

Eh, something like 56% percent of Americans believe Romanian national hero Vlad Tepes was a soulless blood sucking walking corpse (thanks Bram Stoker!) so I'm not going to get my nose out of joint about Temujin, Daemon Prince of Khorne. Even though Alexander the Great would have been a much more qualified choice to be the Blood God's First Champion.

;)

[Kol Saresk]

Nah, Alexander would have been Slaanesh.

[Erasmus of Baal]

Legionator, on 05 Mar 2013 - 08:33, said:

 

 

Wade Garrett, on 05 Mar 2013 - 08:27, said:

Have I mentioned how silly it is for Khorne and Nurgle to be spawned by the plagues and wars of a single planet, while it took a galaxy wide eldar orgy to wake Slaanesh?

I agree. Genghis Khan just killed a few millions, it is nothing comparing to Old Ones - Necron War. Also Genghis Khan is national hero of Mongolia and praised by some Turks. It is a bit insulting to picture him as a daemon prince.

 

I'm not sure that the war between the Old Ones and the Necrons would have had much effect on the Warp. The Old Ones were overall peaceable and constructive, and their military actions are easily construed as the kind of stone-faced "do what must be done" pacifism that was popular in the mid to late 20th century (at least, it was in the US and Britain, to my understanding). The Necrons, on the other hand were already bound to the C'Tan and were not particularly psychically active even before they were made into automatons; even their death-screams would hardly have sent a ripple through the Warp.

 

Concerning the contrast with Slaanesh, I would liken it to the immense self-control that the Old Ones had; it took far longer for Chaos Gods to coalesce because they had more ability to keep their psychic emanations from influencing the Warp. The Eldar created a new Chaos God over a huge period of time because of their incredible levels of excess and their psychic self-control being considerably weaker than that of the Old Ones.

[Legionator]

 

Legionator, on 05 Mar 2013 - 08:33, said:

 

Wade Garrett, on 05 Mar 2013 - 08:27, said:

Have I mentioned how silly it is for Khorne and Nurgle to be spawned by the plagues and wars of a single planet, while it took a galaxy wide eldar orgy to wake Slaanesh?

I agree. Genghis Khan just killed a few millions, it is nothing comparing to Old Ones - Necron War. Also Genghis Khan is national hero of Mongolia and praised by some Turks. It is a bit insulting to picture him as a daemon prince.

 

I'm not sure that the war between the Old Ones and the Necrons would have had much effect on the Warp. The Old Ones were overall peaceable and constructive, and their military actions are easily construed as the kind of stone-faced "do what must be done" pacifism that was popular in the mid to late 20th century (at least, it was in the US and Britain, to my understanding). The Necrons, on the other hand were already bound to the C'Tan and were not particularly psychically active even before they were made into automatons; even their death-screams would hardly have sent a ripple through the Warp.

 

Concerning the contrast with Slaanesh, I would liken it to the immense self-control that the Old Ones had; it took far longer for Chaos Gods to coalesce because they had more ability to keep their psychic emanations from influencing the Warp. The Eldar created a new Chaos God over a huge period of time because of their incredible levels of excess and their psychic self-control being considerably weaker than that of the Old Ones.

I was just about asking a question about this, does the purpose of bloodshed matter for Khorne? Let say, Truman ordered to nuke Japan, causes death of thousands of innocent people but his intend was ending the war and preventing the death of roughly a million men in the invasion of Japan. In that case, you can justify every war. Mongols leveled the cities because rulers of these cities insulted them (Khwarazmians poisoned their ambassador etc); or according to Jean Paul Roux, they just didn't know what to do with huge cities. There isn't any war on the Earth only fought because of the joy of blood spilling. Thus Khorne would be an extremely weak god. On the other hand, if every war fought boosts the power of Khorne (inc. the battles against Chaos), Khorne would be unstoppable and the Emperor would have been the greatest prince of Khorne.

 

BTW, Genghis Khan could have been a Prince of Slaanesh as well. He is ancestor to %2.5 of the world population.

[DarthMarko]

Nah, Alexander would have been Slaanesh.

QFT

Especially when his sexuality is in constant question :-)

[Wade Garrett]

With Khorne, it doesn't matter what justifications the leaders parade before the masses, as long as warriors scream to kill and be killed, the Blood God's gory feast is laid out.

 

Just because Jan Huss says it's a righteous uprising against a corrupt church and nobility doesn't matter, as long as knights furiouslyhurl themselves at the wagon forts and those within rage as they rain down blows, Kharnath's thirst is fed.

[Erasmus of Baal]

 

 

I'm not sure that the war between the Old Ones and the Necrons would have had much effect on the Warp. The Old Ones were overall peaceable and constructive, and their military actions are easily construed as the kind of stone-faced "do what must be done" pacifism that was popular in the mid to late 20th century (at least, it was in the US and Britain, to my understanding). The Necrons, on the other hand were already bound to the C'Tan and were not particularly psychically active even before they were made into automatons; even their death-screams would hardly have sent a ripple through the Warp.

I was just about asking a question about this, does the purpose of bloodshed matter for Khorne? Let say, Truman ordered to nuke Japan, causes death of thousands of innocent people but his intend was ending the war and preventing the death of roughly a million men in the invasion of Japan. In that case, you can justify every war. Mongols leveled the cities because rulers of these cities insulted them (Khwarazmians poisoned their ambassador etc); or according to Jean Paul Roux, they just didn't know what to do with huge cities. There isn't any war on the Earth only fought because of the joy of blood spilling. Thus Khorne would be an extremely weak god. On the other hand, if every war fought boosts the power of Khorne (inc. the battles against Chaos), Khorne would be unstoppable and the Emperor would have been the greatest prince of Khorne.

 

 

My case is less about what does and does not feed Khorne and more about the idea that the Old Ones - Necron War doesn't match any of that. Little blood was spilled aside perhaps from the Old Ones' slave-races (the Eldar and the Orks), as the Old Ones themselves are borderline impossible to beat due to incredible psychic and technological power and the Necrons are by this point automatons that don't have enough soul to affect the Warp. The point about the Old Ones' mentality was excluding concepts of martial pride that may feed the Blood God.

 

Almost forgot: The Old Ones' psychic massacres of the Necron 'bots didn't feed Khorne because of the Old Ones' psychic mastery limiting the effects of their attacks to that particular moment, actively cancelling out the ripples and echoes that, over time, would otherwise accumulate into a Warp God.

[Kol Saresk]

I believe the Crusades were done just for blood and were simply justified with another reason. Then there's the American Civil War that was never about slavery. Colonel Custard's little expedition into the west that cost a great deal of lives over one man's arrogance. Hitler started World War II to wipe out the inferior races while building up the Aryan empire. The battle of Troy. The Angles, Saxons and Jutes never really had a reason to keeping invading Britain until they decided it was easier to stay, but they did. There's the Hundred Year War between England and France. The only purpose behind 9/11 was to kill people and the wars that followed were to kill Bin Laden although the idea he was in Pakistan has been around since '05, the Americans just weren't allowed to go in.

 

So yeah, a lot of things were done. The massacre of the Templars by the Inquisition. The burnings of so many "witches." Christopher Columbus' Native American Roast BBQ. So on so forth.

 

Like I said, Khorne is about Rage, Hatred and Wrath personified. They are our most primal and aggressive emotions. His followers are violent not because he's a "god of war" but because being violent is the best way to express those emotions. The purest way. And IIRC, the last time Khorne was referred to as a god of war was in 3.5 Edition C: CSM. Everything since then, at least CSM-wise, has referred to him as a god of hate.

[Vesper]

Double post.

[Vesper]

I believe the Crusades were done just for blood and were simply justified with another reason. Then there's the American Civil War that was never about slavery. Colonel Custard's little expedition into the west that cost a great deal of lives over one man's arrogance. Hitler started World War II to wipe out the inferior races while building up the Aryan empire. The battle of Troy. The Angles, Saxons and Jutes never really had a reason to keeping invading Britain until they decided it was easier to stay, but they did. There's the Hundred Year War between England and France. The only purpose behind 9/11 was to kill people and the wars that followed were to kill Bin Laden although the idea he was in Pakistan has been around since '05, the Americans just weren't allowed to go in.

 

So yeah, a lot of things were done. The massacre of the Templars by the Inquisition. The burnings of so many "witches." Christopher Columbus' Native American Roast BBQ. So on so forth.

 

Like I said, Khorne is about Rage, Hatred and Wrath personified. They are our most primal and aggressive emotions. His followers are violent not because he's a "god of war" but because being violent is the best way to express those emotions. The purest way. And IIRC, the last time Khorne was referred to as a god of war was in 3.5 Edition C: CSM. Everything since then, at least CSM-wise, has referred to him as a god of hate.

Errr, that's an interesting view of History. Quite a wrong one of course, but that makes it interesting, in fact.

The whole point of the Crusades (most of those, not including perticular ones) were to spread Christianity/Take back the Holy Land/Allow the pilgrims to reach the Holy Land.

Hitler never wanted to wipe inferior races. He wanted to wipe SOME of the inferior races. He was fine with most non-aryan western "types", and he quite liked the arabs and the asians who were both his allies. For example, I live in France, the french people isn't part of the great germanic aryan race, yet Hitler was fine about us being alive (same goes with the eastern european/slavic people). It was more about getting rid of some "parasitic" races that "fed from the aryan race glory/genius".

The siege (not the battle... It lasted ten years...) of Troy was all about the booty and honor. Read the Iliad.

The Hundred Year War between England and France (a subject that I know quite well, in fact), is all about people not agreeing about who's the French king / What's the more profitable (for the Burgundian).

09/11 is about striking a symbol, and begin the war of terror. It's politics. Pretty much like the NATO wars that followed. Interests, retribution and influence.

The massacre of the Templars by the Church (not the Inquisition, the Pope was involved) AND THE FRENCH KING is all about power and money. And the witches were burned out of fear of the devil. It's a question of faith and superstition.

Nobody ever made war for fun and the pleasure to spill blood. It's war that makes the warrior, not the other way around.

[Kol Saresk]

But ultimately the purpose was to kill. That is the definition of a war. To beat the other guy. With the Templars, as you say it was politics. It was politics that could have been handled a number of ways. But it ended in a massacre because the perpetrators chose a massacre.

 

Troy. Did it not end in the deaths of many people? Some of whom were civilians? Was that not avoidable? And yet, that is what happened. People other than soldiers were killed.

 

The Crusades, how many innocent Arabs died by "Christian" hands? How many the other way around?

 

And 9/11 was about Osama bin Laden. The War on Terror was simply the U.S. saying to the World "We're fed up with it." The irony is that most American citizens thought it was pointless and the moment we lower national security, bomb threats galore and public shootings. Not to mention there was that kid back in '11 I think it was who tried to blow a city Christmas festival.

 

Hitler may have been fine, but his doctrine of Nazism did preach that the Aryans were supreme. The irony is that if he had tolerated the Jews, Albert Einstein would not have urged the Manhattan Project to be created.

 

Being from France, I believe you are also familiar with Jeanna d'Arc and her false trial by the English Bishop as well as the subsequent burning at the stake. Could there have been another way to deal with that? Yes. Could not have France or England had surrendered to each or reached some sort of agreement? Yes, they could have. But what did they do? They fought a war. They continued to fight a war. And why? Because Edward III of England did not pay homage to the King of France who then tried to seize his(Edward's) land that was in France. And then came the "I'm the rightful heir to the throne because I am the closest male relative of Charles IV." A war over land. One hundred and sixteen years of bloodshed fought over dirt.

 

But killing always has a motive. Even serial killers have a motive. It is usually a case of self-therapy gone extremely wrong. But all wars involve killing. Killing may not be the purpose, but it is a side effect.

 

Killing is everywhere and all around us. Even in 40k, Humanity is considered one of the more violent races alongside the Orks, with the greenskins being considered the more primitive. But Humanity was born in bloodshed, it lives in bloodshed and it will die in bloodshed. It is only natural that we be responsible for the creation of a beast like Khorne.

 

But as I said, it is not war that created Khorne, it was hate, anger, wrath and everything in between. War is simply an aspect that was brought by his followers. And as history points out, war and killing go hand in hand. Killing may not be the motivation, but eventual hatred becomes the driving factor that continues it and when hatred ensues, killing is not far behind.

[Wade Garrett]

Kol-

 

What Vesper is saying, and I'm not sure you're getting, is that war is a means to an end, not the end itself.

 

Wars are fought for all kinds of reasons, but it is used as a tool for whoever is in charge to attain his ends, whether that is reclaiming an ancestral homeland, taking a blue water port, unifying the city states of a land into an empire, so on, and so forth.

 

The Crusades were fought to take back the Holy Land from the infidel (Crusader's words, not mine personally) and since the infidel would not hand it over when asked nicely...DEUS VULT! And it's off to fight Saladin. But fighting Saladin was never the end all be all, it was the tool by which to claim Jersualem and the surrounding environments.

[Kol Saresk]

No, I got that. Originally I was being facetious. However, every war gets to the point that it is just "Kill them and let's be done with it." The war may be a side effect, not the purpose. The motivation for the war might be something totally different. But eventually it becomes nothing more than "Kill, kill, kill."

 

And if you notice, that is also why the entire time, I have been saying that Khorne is a god of hate, not war. His followers are killers not because it is a necessary component, but because it is the easiest and purest way for them to express their devotion. Killing is the means to the end, not the end itself, to use your own words.

 

Although in the case of the Third Crusade, it was to reconquer Jerusalem from Saladin. There was no "nice asking." The Second Crusade had no "nice asking" involved. The First Crusade also had no "nice asking." All three Crusades were to reclaim Jerusalem after it had been taken/retaken by the Muslims. There was no spreading of Christianity. There was no "nice asking." The First Crusade very nicely demonstrates the purpose and methods of the Crusades when the European Knights attacked Jerusalem, conquered it and then massacred the civilians inside.

[Lagbenektelse]

A quick aside Kol Saresk because I greatly enjoyed your meta analysis of honour and perception in regards to Angron but your history especially regarding the crusades is a bit muddled.

That out of the way I had one point to add vis a vis the Emperor's whole willful suffering for the glory of mankind.

 

It seems to me that they put his body in a machine that had already been designed and basically turned him into a lamp.  Not to say that he isnt suffering because I'm sure that is horrid but with the psyker sacrifice basically on beauracratic autopilot is there not reason to believe that he no longer has a say in the matter?  And incidentally how tragic would that be that the human race is "sorta" functioning due to the perpetual torture of its former saviour.

[Kol Saresk]

I will admit my specifics of history aren't very... well, specific. History was a weak point not because I didn't learn about it but because I'm usually more worried about my immediate surroundings. However, history always has more than one view and very few are ever "right." Accurate, maybe. it would depend on how unbiased the historian is. Although I still believe and maintain that you cannot spread religion by the sword especially when it was a religion that denounced such methods and taught only to fight in the defense of yourself and/or others. The Crusades are far from being "Christian" and as such, could not have had a purpose of spreading a religion it did not follow. It would be like the Dalai Lama returning to Tibet at the head of an army. So yes, I may ignore the "religious" aspect simply because there is no true religious aspect. It was a political maneuver by the Papacy to control the Middle East and the ultimate purpose of more than a few Crusades were to "reclaim Jerusalem from the Muslims."

 

IIRC the original purpose of the Golden Throne was to simply act as a cartographer/air control tower/defense system for the Human Webway that the Emperor wanted to build. Magnus was the intended recipient of this "honor." But when he opened the webway breach even bigger than it was and destroyed the warding seals on Terra, the Golden Throne lost all viability except as a defense mechanism against the daemonic incursion through that one specific point of entry.<br /><br />As a result, since Magnus the intended recipient could not be used, the Emperor substituted himself since apparently he was the only candidate left. Or at least the only candidate who can sustain it for as long as he has while virtually being dead.<br /><br />But good point. It would indeed be tragic for Humanity's savior to pay the "ultimate price" and to continue paying it through his own personal, self-induced hell.