the emperor really saved angron?

[Captain Semper]

So Crusades, the meaning of war and Joan of Arc... This has gone off topic.

 

 

Bring it back.

[Vesper]

So Crusades, the meaning of war and Joan of Arc... This has gone off topic.

 

 

Bring it back.

Oh, too bad, I had a LOT to say about Kol's perception of the Crusade and how he's wrong thinking what he thinks about them. I would've told him that the Papaucy wasn't after the Middle East, but only the Holy Land. Then, about asking nicely, I would've said that the Cassus belli came from the muslim rulers who decided to forbid the access to pilgrims. I would also tell him about how Christianity was the center of the Western life, by then, and how something like this mattered, and that war is more about deafeating an opponent than killing him and everyone he ever knew. I would surely end up telling him about the fact that war and atrocious genocidal acts are all about politics, influence and interests more than KILL KILL KILL BURN MAIM SQUEEZE.

But to come back on topic, Angron is cool.

[Onisuzume]

But ultimately the purpose was to kill. That is the definition of a war.

To beat the other guy. With the Templars, as you say it was politics.

It was politics that could have been handled a number of ways. But it

ended in a massacre because the perpetrators chose a massacre.

I disagree.

War is an act of violence to compel our opponent to fulfill our will.

Additionally: War is merely the continuation of politics by other means.

 

And sorry. ^_^

Already posted before I reached page 5.

[Legionator]

But ultimately the purpose was to kill. That is the definition of a war.

To beat the other guy. With the Templars, as you say it was politics.

It was politics that could have been handled a number of ways. But it

ended in a massacre because the perpetrators chose a massacre.

I disagree.

War is an act of violence to compel our opponent to fulfill our will.

Additionally: War is merely the continuation of politics by other means.

And sorry.

Already posted before I reached page 5.

Politics is the continuation of war by other means

Back to the topic, I still think that Angron is the main responsible for his fall. IMO, if I could say "O.K. these guys turned traitor but they were right", I wouldn't be a loyalist. Arguing about justification of treachery is meaningless.

[Erasmus of Baal]

Back to the topic, I still think that Angron is the main responsible for his fall. IMO, if I could say "O.K. these guys turned traitor but they were right", I wouldn't be a loyalist. Arguing about justification of treachery is meaningless.

All that does is loop the discussion back to the beginning of the thread, as most of this thread has been revolving around whether or not the Emperor actually betrayed Angron (in Angron's eyes, at least) when the E teleported Angron away from his battle-brothers and allowed those gladiators to be slaughtered.

[Kol Saresk]

Angron is responsible for his own fall, yes. Most of the Traitor Primarchs are. However, his motivation comes from the Emperor's actions in saving Angron. It is cause and effect. The Emperor "dishonors" Angron. Angron as a result plays Primarch, but is never loyal. And when offered to settle his matter of "dishonor", he takes it.

[Noctis]

To weigh in on the original point; Angron was clearly willing to lay down his life for his beliefs and the freedome he had fought tooth and Butchers Nail for. The Emperor wasnt going to let that happen. Would Angron have survived with no intervention? I don't think he believed he would from what we know and despite the Nails in his head he is still a Primarch and could probably weigh the odds of the battle.

I think it is one of the great unanswered questions of the Heresy; why the Emperor did what he did to Angron.

Angron even says so much in Betrayer when he tells Lorgar that when they reach Terra he will ask his Father that very question.

The War Hounds were there to be unleashed... send in the Custodes... Save all of his Gladiator brothers... Hell go down there in person and just tell the Nobles "...No, stop it... Stop it" (read in Peter Griffin's voice )

I think like alot of the Heresy, what sounded good in a few throw-away lines in an IA article now has to be fleshed out in a way that makes sense in the context of the series.

Was it that the Emperor knew that the Gladiators were lost to the Nails and would be more trouble than they were worth? Could He sense Khornes bloody gauntlet already clutching the lot of them?

The irony being that in wanting to be as close with their Primarch as the other legions (Khans words) the Hounds eventually become the very thing the Emperor might have been trying to leave on Nuceria.

[yhta]

I think this says it all:

‘Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honour, courage and honour, courage and honour. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom that enslaves you, no matter that their armies overshadow yours by ten thousand to one. You know nothing of courage. Honour is resisting a tyrant when all others suckle and grow fat on the hypocrisy he feeds them. You know nothing of honour.’

-Angron to Guilliman when he kicks his ass in Betrayer

Yeah yeah. We know his courage and honour from Istvaan III and Istvaan V. The way he dealed with his sons and Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Salamanders was so courageous and honourable.

"Loyalty is its own reward." - Lion El'Jonson. Now come and see the meaning of "honour" ye traitors

yeah, said the primarch who kill his chaplain because he told him that psyker power are a big no,

lion and russ are two big example of loyalty, they pretty much do wharever the hell they want, because they dont break the law of the emperor(or in this case, the emperor never know) they are good

for me angron was the first who saw the emperor like the pragmatic tyrant that reward loyalty to him more thant anything

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

I think this says it all:

‘Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honour, courage and honour, courage and honour. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom that enslaves you, no matter that their armies overshadow yours by ten thousand to one. You know nothing of courage. Honour is resisting a tyrant when all others suckle and grow fat on the hypocrisy he feeds them. You know nothing of honour.’

-Angron to Guilliman when he kicks his ass in Betrayer

Yeah yeah. We know his courage and honour from Istvaan III and Istvaan V. The way he dealed with his sons and Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Salamanders was so courageous and honourable.

"Loyalty is its own reward." - Lion El'Jonson. Now come and see the meaning of "honour" ye traitors

yeah, said the primarch who kill his chaplain because he told him that psyker power are a big no,

lion and russ are two big example of loyalty, they pretty much do wharever the hell they want, because they dont break the law of the emperor(or in this case, the emperor never know) they are good

for me angron was the first who saw the emperor like the pragmatic tyrant that reward loyalty to him more thant anything

And considering future Astartes Chapters would come to rely on Librarians after the Heresy, that makes the Lion a pragmatic visionary and his chaplain a pig-headed fool.

[yhta]

I think this says it all:

‘Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honour, courage and honour, courage and honour. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom that enslaves you, no matter that their armies overshadow yours by ten thousand to one. You know nothing of courage. Honour is resisting a tyrant when all others suckle and grow fat on the hypocrisy he feeds them. You know nothing of honour.’

-Angron to Guilliman when he kicks his ass in Betrayer

Yeah yeah. We know his courage and honour from Istvaan III and Istvaan V. The way he dealed with his sons and Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Salamanders was so courageous and honourable.

"Loyalty is its own reward." - Lion El'Jonson. Now come and see the meaning of "honour" ye traitors

yeah, said the primarch who kill his chaplain because he told him that psyker power are a big no,

lion and russ are two big example of loyalty, they pretty much do wharever the hell they want, because they dont break the law of the emperor(or in this case, the emperor never know) they are good

for me angron was the first who saw the emperor like the pragmatic tyrant that reward loyalty to him more thant anything

And considering future Astartes Chapters would come to rely on Librarians after the Heresy, that makes the Lion a pragmatic visionary and his chaplain a pig-headed fool.

and the quote of lion become meanless in the end because the chaplain obey the edit of the emperor and lion kill him, so it seen that is more "loyalty to me is your own reward" more than anything

also. by that way of thinking, the emperor is a fool by not trust magnus waring because horus was in fact a traitor?

[Lagbenektelse]

Another reason for thinking the Emperor just wanted Angron might be it never actually occured to the Emperor that he wouldnt be able to "cure" him.  THis is after all the guy who created the primarchs and in addition to being an incredibly potent psyker was also considered the omnissiah by the adeptus mechanicus.  And there is almost certainly an argument that the gladiators were lost to Khorne and wouldnt be able to have their nails removed.

[Kol Saresk]

Being lost to the nails wouldn't necessarily equate being lost to Khorne. Otherwise anyone lost to madness would be Khornate. Including the members of the various Death Companies among the Blood Angels and their successors as well as certain Wulfen. The Dark Eldar said the buthcer's Nails opened the path to the Skull Throne, not that they had already taken him there.

 

But all in all, if the Emperor had been a true father, he would have gone down, stopped the fighting and then put down Angron himself. But what he did instead shows more of his pragmatism(could be considered a compliment or an insult) by instead looking at what was supposed to be his general and still telling him to lead his army because even as a mass murderer, Angron could achieve the Emperor's goal of spreading his Imperium across the stars against all opposition, human or otherwise. At least until Lorgar found out about Chaos and threw a monkey wrench into the plan.

[Wade Garrett]

The fact that Isstvan 3 had to happen at all suggests that "Implanted with Butcher's Nails" does not make "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!" a sure thing.

 

As for the Lion...for someone who rants and raves about Guilliman supplanting the Emperor, it's instructive to note that when Rob encounters daemons his first response is "We must get the Edict of Nikea repealed so we can use the Librarians." Johnson? "I'm the First Primarch, I do what I want and I want Librarians!" then beheads the poor sap who considers following the Emperor's orders to take precedence over the Primarchs. (Fulgrim, Mortarion, Horus, and Angron: "We know that feel, bro!")

[Wolf Lord Loki]

I read a great quote that said "i dont have anger management issues, i just prefer to solve all my problens with violence!" i think that sums up Angron nicely.

 

As for the issues between guiliman and lorgar, my impression is that guiliman found what he was ordered to do distasteful thats why he was so emotionless. But he was a good soldier and followed the big E's orders regardless.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Was it that the Emperor knew that the Gladiators were lost to the Nails and would be more trouble than they were worth?

I've spoken to this in the past.  Ultimately, the government of the planet was functional and had a place in the Imperium.  Angron's place was as Primarch, leading his legion of Space Marines.  His gladiators had no place in that scenario, and the Imperium no place to put them.

 

While in retrospect it looks like an awful idea for the Emperor to have abandoned Angron's army to its fate, there was no alternate solution.  Angron's warriors had no place alongside the War Hounds, and they had no place on their own planet as they had rebelled.  On top of that, they were savages.  Sure, that might not have been of their own choosing or fault, but it was still the reality. 

 

The Emperor simply made the choice on practicality and expediency.  He needed Angron.  He wanted the planet.  Relocating a few thousand bloodlusted savages wasn't of any use.  The Imperium was marching forward to a grand design.  A bunch of irreparably damaged gladiators were of no consequence to him.  He made a mistake in terms of how important they were to Angron.  Maybe he just made a mistake of about how much Angron would appreciate the privilege of being a Primarch and leading a legion of the most vicious killers the galaxy had yet seen. 

 

Either way, he should have ripped out Angron's Nails, lol.  The worst that happens is Angron becomes emo and sulks like Lorgar did.  Instead, he was further damaged, and then irreparably damaged his Legion too.  Really, the second part is worse.  The damage the Nails did to the World Eaters made them probably the most costly and ineffecient of the Legions, and the side effect of them being excellent shock troops probably wasn't that great of an offsetting benefit.

[Lagbenektelse]

He probably should have herded the whole lot off to a death world...they might even have appreciated it.

[Octavulg]

Angron's warriors had no place alongside the War Hounds

Why? Many of Luther's knights accompanied the Dark Angels, even though they were too old to technically become Space Marines.

 

Also, Angron being willing to forget his gladiators in exchange for shiny rewards is exactly the sort of trait you don't want in the guy in charge of your legion of bloodthirsty killers. Otherwise it's even easier to corrupt him.

[Captain Idaho]

Although it's speculative I'm fairly convinced, given what I know about Angron and his nature, when the Emperor spoke with him on his home planet he made an offer and out of bloody mindedness Angron refused. I imagine it would be an offer to save the slave army as long as they bent their knee and Angron being Angron saw this as tyranny and made the choice for his "free" slaves.

 

Alternatively they weren a bunch of genocidal maniacs and couldn't be saved. Remember how they were said to carve path to freedom?

 

I just don't buy Angron being a victim. His conversation with Russ convinced me of that. Statements about forced genocide were justifications of a guilty man rather than truth.

[Legionator]

 

 

Alternatively they were a bunch of genocidal maniacs and couldn't be saved. Remember how they were said to carve path to freedom?

 

I just don't buy Angron being a victim. His conversation with Russ convinced me of that. Statements about forced genocide were justifications of a guilty man rather than truth.

 

Also, we know those half Astartes (Luther, Kor Phaeron) mean trouble. Angron's brothers would be very dangerous with butcher nails and genetic enchantments.

[randian]

Either way, he should have ripped out Angron's Nails, lol.  The worst that happens is Angron becomes emo and sulks like Lorgar did.  Instead, he was further damaged, and then irreparably damaged his Legion too. 

Ironically, had the Emperor saved Angron's gladiators he would have had hundreds of copies of the Butcher's Nails to examine and experiment with, possibly giving him the vital clue needed to remove them from Angron. The gladiators themselves would no doubt have volunteered for it. Instead, the only copy he has is Angron's, and the necessary experimentation would likely have killed him before divining enough information to remove them, so he doesn't.

[Captain Idaho]

The Nails aren't a lobo-chip, rather they are like a spider/face hugger with it's tendrils infiltrating through the brain in such a way you can't just turn them off or remove them or they'll kill the host. Sadly, the Emperor realised this before trying.

[randian]

The Nails aren't a lobo-chip, rather they are like a spider/face hugger with it's tendrils infiltrating through the brain in such a way you can't just turn them off or remove them or they'll kill the host. Sadly, the Emperor realised this before trying.

In Betrayer, Angron's body is described as being in a perpetual (but losing) fight with the Nails. In addition, the Nails weren't designed for a Primarch's brain, so it should be less effective at making itself permanently disabling. A human would probably die if you simply turned them off, but Angron would almost certainly get better because he has regenerative powers a human doesn't. That's why I don't understand why they couldn't be turned off, even if they couldn't be removed.

 

Interestingly, the Nails couldn't have provided much entertainment per gladiator because sleep deprivation by itself kills humans in a few weeks at best. Adrenaline overload and exhaustion would have shortened that considerably. The turnover would have been incredible, which makes me wonder whether the Nucerians had some sort of "off" or "reduced effect" switch. Or, perhaps, they just didn't care that new gladiators spontaneously die a week or two after being inducted.

[Octavulg]

The gladiators can't die in a few weeks, though, or Angron wouldn't have been able to fight a guerilla war...

[Legionator]

The gladiators can't die in a few weeks, though, or Angron wouldn't have been able to fight a guerilla war...

 

And death in the arena was not so common in the Roman Empire, because losing a well trained gladiator is bad for the business.

[randian]

The gladiators can't die in a few weeks, though, or Angron wouldn't have been able to fight a guerilla war...

Then the described effects of the nails can't be true, or they're unique to Primarchs and Astartes. Sleep deprivation is lethal.