yhta Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 so, i ask this, did you think the emperor really follow this of the imperial truth? or just is lying to everytone, i mean ¿how the emperor look the chaos gods and chaos in general? he seen to know more than everyone else so is aproach of saying that the deamons are just warp xenos is truth, just that underated the way deamos act so what did you think about? he know the truth but is lying to everyone and himseft like lorgar said? is just a fool who is outsmart by chaos or he think of chaos in every diferent level? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Oh, he knew the truth. There's no doubt about that. The interactions between him and Magnus concerning the nature of the warp made that apparent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3315615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 The "Imperial truth" is just a fancy term the new Horus Heresy stories made up. The purpose of the Emperor's plan most immediately was to liberate and re-unite the human worlds that had been scattered and lost during the Age of Strife. The more long term purpose was to find a way to counter the influence of Chaos. In earlier editions that plan had mainly been to defeat the forces of Chaos in battle, or to counter indoctrinate with the Imperial Cult. The Imperial Cult has now been removed, and replaced instead with a message of atheism. So, essentially, the "Imperial Truth" is but a ploy to counter the influence of Chaos. It was by no means the core agenda of the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3315679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 to be honest you start getting into life of Brian territory with the debate about whether the emperor knew the truth (monty python if anyone doesn't know what i mean by that) random imperial citizen: "it's the messiah!!" emperor: "no im not the messiah im just a really powerful dude with awesome powers" citizen: "only the true messiah would deny his divinity!" emperor: "alright i am the bloody messiah then!" citizen: "he is the messiah!!" no matter what people will always think he is a god even if he denies it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3315768 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darog Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 The Emperor was right, there are no gods in the warp, just emanations, before his accession to the throne, was not drugh gods to men, so that technically he's right. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3315772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 However, he also didn't tell anyone that there were creatures in the warp either. Only the Primarchs and "privileged individuals" knew and they weren't supposed to tell anyone. It's not a matter of whether or gods exist, its a matter of there being a danger to humanity that he thought would be better left alone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3315925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_Dew Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 The writers or/and the big E may have missed or are playing to the fact that humans as a species need a "faith" and the more something is hidden the more we try to uncover it, so either the writers are trying to make him so far from human in the way he thinks that he is missing what makes him human or the big e knew exactly what he was doing... i for one don't know whats worse that he is so callous to plan to see the universe burn for 10K+ years or that he's so intelligent he is in fact stupid to the point of arrogance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3315974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 No gods in the Warp? What does one call a transcendent being that touches the soul of every sentient being in the galaxy, that reshapes reality at a whim, that can grant eternal bliss and power or condemn to eternal torment with a thought? "Really powerful xenos wizard" seems a bit inadequate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3316036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saul Invictus Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 to be honest you start getting into life of Brian territory with the debate about whether the emperor knew the truth (monty python if anyone doesn't know what i mean by that) random imperial citizen: "it's the messiah!!" emperor: "no im not the messiah im just a really powerful dude with awesome powers" citizen: "only the true messiah would deny his divinity!" emperor: "alright i am the bloody messiah then!" citizen: "he is the messiah!!" no matter what people will always think he is a god even if he denies it He's not the messiah... ...He's a very naughty boy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3316057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 No gods in the Warp? What does one call a transcendent being that touches the soul of every sentient being in the galaxy, that reshapes reality at a whim, that can grant eternal bliss and power or condemn to eternal torment with a thought? "Really powerful xenos wizard" seems a bit inadequate. They are not gods in modern sense, because 1) They were born. 2) They need to feed. 3) They are afraid of a dude who is not even a god. 4) They are not pretty. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3316677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 You do realize that many gods of modern and ancient polytheistic religions are believed to have been born right? And that they eat. And they ha problems with mortals and demi-gods and that more than a few of them(like Hephaestus) were not pleasing to the eye. And the Chaos Gods have more powers than the Greek, Roman and Egyptian pantheons. So if those are the guidelines for being a "god," I think they got it covered. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3316690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 god is just a label that was put on them, personally i think they are just a race of xenos that lives in the warp, their connection to the warp gives them some awesome freaky powers, but they are not gods Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3316697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 No gods in the Warp? What does one call a transcendent being that touches the soul of every sentient being in the galaxy, that reshapes reality at a whim, that can grant eternal bliss and power or condemn to eternal torment with a thought? "Really powerful xenos wizard" seems a bit inadequate. And that is my issue with Lorgar's definition of "God(s)" since it seems to be largely based on power devoid of other criteria. By that standard, all the Necrons are Gods as are the Eldar. Do they not live beyond the scheme of mortal men? Are they not able to reshap the cosmos to their will? Can they not breath life to the inanimate? TRULY THEY AR GODS! I deny divinity, or at the least the value of something as an object of veneration and worship, should be based solely on the criterion of greater relative power. Take a human's relation to a fish. Compared to a fish, a man is the comlete master of it's fate, living night unto forever, capable of overturning its life at a momen't notice and for reasons beyond the ken of the fish., granting it life through maginificent and magnanimous bounty, or ending the sushi-platter-to-be's life on a whim. Yet we do not often attribute divinity to mankind. Perhaps we should, but not due to simple power capabilities and one certainly should not attribute power/divinity with an equal level of deservedness of adulation....Unless said "God" is threatening you with wicked powerful smiting. Then standard policy switches to "Hail X! And how many sacrifices do you require today?" I believe "Capricious Pyschic Entities" would do just fine, which, according to some of the statements of the Heresy series, is how the 30K Imperium approached such things. It was acknowledged that the Warp contained entities of some kind or other, but they were largely regarded as just another bit of Xenos or Matter/Energy transferrance not yet catalogue by good hard science. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3316973 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I think you mean the C'Tan, not the entire Necron race. And yes, by Lorgar's measurements they are deities (and they were venerated as such by the Oldcrons.) "Is he a magical sky spirit dwelling inside a mythical Paradise? No. I am not a fool. He is not a God as primitive cultures once understood the concept. The Emperor is a God in all but name, Magnus. He is psychic power incarnated within a physical shell. When he speaks, his lips never move and his throat makes no sound. His face is a thousand visages at once. The only aspect of humanity he possses is the facade he uses to interact with mortals." Lorgar Aurelian, The First Heretic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3316999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 The Imperial Truth seems to me to be nothing more than the Emperor's weapon against the Warp. Whether it's an effective weapon is certainly debatable, but it seems to be used as such. The Chaos Gods may be representations of certain aspects of humanity that could never be truly excised, but they seem to primarily gain strength from it being done in their name, as a form of worship. All blood shed may be nectar to Khorne, but it is the blood shed in his name that actually means anything. Same for the others. Otherwise, everyone would be a cultist. Either you desire to experience life, and are a Slaaneshi, or you rage at it and are a Khornate, or you are defeated by it and are a Nurglite, or you seek to turn it to your advantage and are a Tzeentchian. There would be no other type of living being, only cultists. The fact that there are in 40k means that, despite them being manifestations of ever-present traits, it is only those done as a form of worship to them that makes them what they are. Like unto Gods. So while you could never take away bloodshed in this universe, you could prevent Khorne from gaining any true sustenance from Humanity by shutting any worshipful bloodletting down. Since the Gods seem to be very intricately linked to our species, taking away their worship would be an intensely crippling blow, if not a fatal one. That's what Imperial Truth was for. By attempting to stamp out all forms of worship, it was intending to starve the Gods. And perhaps it doesn't matter that the Emperor knew the true nature of the Warp. To his belief, they might not have been Gods, no matter their power. After all, he didn't think of himself as a God, and yet he felt he was equal to the task of killing them. Since the Imperial Truth itself is a belief, as it is essentially enforced atheism, it doesn't really matter what the actual facts were. Just what was needed to be believed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3317296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I have to disagree with you about a couple of things, Cormac. Here's how I see, as an example, Khorne's nature. He does indeed gain power from ALL bloodletting rage, but "normal" beings don't exist in an extreme state of bloodthirsty rage. Whereas when you begin to seek Khorne's touch, to walk the path of the Cultist, as you become more and more devout you spend more and more time wallowing in whatever state empowers your chosen deity the most, which in Khorne's case is hate, anger, and wrath. So while Khorne will derive X amount of power from Joe Smuckatelli Human over the course of his life, if Joe becomes a Khornate cultist he will derive X x 2, X x 3, or so on amounts of power from him, even though as a Khorne cultist his overall life will be shortened, the overall amount of time he'll spend in a murderous frenzy will expand a great deal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3317337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherAtrox Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Assuming your theory is correct, even then it would still be understandable that someone wishing to combat the Chaos entities would propagate something akin to the Imperial Truth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3317903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Not really. Khorne thrives off of hate and violence, and not always together. Those two items still existed in abundance when the Imperial Truth was being propagated. There was still disease and pleasure clubs. Just look at the pleasure club that was on Terra in "Nemesis." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3317943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Wade, I made that point in that post. What I'm suggesting is something I've come to believe of the source material. It doesn't ever outright say this, but it seemed to suggest it to me. So I'm definitely not declaring my point as proven in canon, just something I've come to believe is. And that point is that, regardless of the spheres of influence and particular interests of the Dark Gods, their primary form of sustenance is that which is done in their name. And Wade Garrett might be right in the reason why, that those who would worship these beings would be more likely to act on those things on a nigh permanent basis. If the Imperial Truth's aim is to be rid of such worship, creating a human species that may act on those urges as humans will, then its true purpose may be to rid the Chaos Gods of their greatest source of nourishment/empowerment. It's fitting with the theme of the Emperor, that of an indirect combatant against the Warp. Starve the Gods, or at least stagnate them, then allow humanity to travel through their realm without impediment or threat. All while not directly "assaulting" them. Since the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy is a war of pawns after all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3317974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Chaos gods are not GODS- THEY are very powerful beings who exsist only because negative/chaotic emotions exist, also they aren't omnipotent- just check Magnus, who even after his demise doesn't belive in their god status, and mocks Lorgar for his worshiping.... Old Perturabo said it best in AE: Their gods were real. Very real.’ ‘Gods?’ Fulgrim waved away thepejorative associations. ‘Entities so powerful they might as well becalled gods. They are to mankind as we are to microbes: towering andimmortal, magnificent and all-powerful.’ ‘A microbe can still kill in great enough numbers,’ pointed out Perturabo, but Fulgrim ignored him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3318007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 They are gods in the purest sense. raw emotion given form trough belief and identity by a name given to them by sentient creatures that in their infinite mass-stupidity have decided to worship certain aspects of life, like victory in battle, healing of wounds and diseases, any progress in science, and of course pleasure. or fatherly/motherly love. you know, something basic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3318027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 They are gods in the purest sense. Gods have always been something indefinable. That's the very nature of deities. To us, outside of the 40k universe, they are definable and thus not gods but to those in-universe it all depends upon definability. As the vast majority of beings in the 40k universe are of a much more limited scope and have but a fleeting grasp of the nature of the dark powers, it's only natural for them (the 'gods') to be known simply as such. Of course one of those beings that might not have that aforementioned limited scope, I would think, is the Emperor. Perhaps to him they aren't to be considered gods at all but as malevolent psychic beings, amalgams of emotions and souls. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3318061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 Cormac: That wasn't intended to come across as a "You are wrong! Kneel before my being rightness!" merely a statement of my view of the Ruinous Powers, which differs from yours. As for what Magnus believes about the Hidden Gods, the Crimson King saw strings stretching between himself and the Warp and believed he was the puppeteer. One would think ripping open a Warp Rift on Terra and the scouring of Prospero would have brought him some humility. Lorgar willingly serves the Octed because he believes in their divine nature, the Cyclops is a leashed dog that has yet to realize it's collared. Who is really more deserving of mockery? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3318220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 Magnus is definitely more deserving. But in the case of Lorgar, it isn't just a belief in the divine. He has spent his whole life preaching what he thought was the Truth. But it was a lie. To him, the real truth is that not only are there gods, but they are also very cruel creatures. Problem is, he has sworn himself to serving the Truth of the Universe. As such, he has no choice but to swear allegiance to them and follow their will. At least, that's my opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3318237 Share on other sites More sharing options...
yhta Posted March 7, 2013 Author Share Posted March 7, 2013 for me religion in 40k is more a conection with the god i all the senses of the world, the more faithfull or more time you pass you become more like your god, the daemon princes are pretty much that, a mortal who become a piece of the god(or entity) that is why a khorne ocultist can star with some kind of honor more the more time began he become just another berzerket, become pure emotion with some inteligent, just like the big four now the problem with the imperial truth is not his atheism, is the fact that it fail to explain a few thing about chaos and the fact that the emperor see to think that he is the only one who can really face them(i seen that magnus have the arrogance of his father), look the interex: the know about chaos and they don`t really see really in deny or fanatical zeal, and the fact that even with faith, the imperiun still hide information about everything, Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271978-the-empror-and-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3322996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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