L30n1d4s Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 We don't have the book yet, but plenty of pretty substantial rumors are out about the new Chaos Daemons dex and reading those got me thinking.... what will change for GKs once this becomes official? Now, I don't know for sure, but I have a hunch that Daemons are going to be one of the more powerful factions out there with their new rules (at least I certainly hope so.... I actually kind of miss the old days when GKs were not considered OPed by everyone and their brother... don't get me wrong, I love the current codex, I just don't like everyone automatically thinking you are playing Cheesy if you show up to a game with GKs). If it is true that Chaos Daemons get up there with Necrons, IG, etc. as one of the more powerful armies, then I expect to see a lot more Daemon armies out there (especially since they are "new and shiny" with a new codex/models). I know the changes to Flamers and Screamers already made a lot of players go over to the way of Chaos in competitive settings, but I estimate that even more will come once the book releases. So, if my prediction is correct, then GK players might actually have to adjust their lists a little to (gasp) be better at fighting Daemons... crazy, I know! ;) Based on that, I think certain items in the GK codex that are rarely employed right now might come into more common usage. A few examples: *Stern - Currently in contention for the worst Special Character in the GK book (depends on your thoughts about Crowe), I think the advent of C: CD might cause him to be used a little more, largely for his Pyschic Power Zone of Banishment... think about it, Psykout grenades causes any Daemons he charges to be Initiative 1, he is I5, so he goes first and activates his power, causing ALL units within D6" to take a strength test which, if they fail, causes them to be removed with no saves of any kind.... on top of that Daemons have to re-roll successful tests. All of those S3 Daemons like Daemonettes, Nurglings, etc. will have a 75% chance of being removed from the game, straight up.... Stern is very likely to clear almost his entire killzone, making attacks back at him minimal (which he can save with his 2+/3++ in close combat)... he is also very likely to win combat, forcing Daemonic stability tests, further depleting the unit he is engaging. *Banisher in the Inquisatorial Henchman Warband - Used by a few right now, but I expect to see many more of these.... for the price, you can't go wrong, as forcing all Daemons within range to re-roll successful Invuls is a major debuff, potentially chaning the course of entire games. *Brotherhood Champions - While some already use them, most players go with a GM, Libby, or Inquisitor if they are not going for a named character. Heroic Sacrifice is what I am looking at here. Given the C: CD potential for fielding massive, ultra-exensive, uber powerful Greater Daemons and named characters, this little guy is the antidote. If he can ge the charge, he can single out an Uber Daemon and attack him... in the likely event the Daemon kills the Brotherhood Champ, he activates his Heroic Sacrifice which should hit on a 4+, with re-roll for Herald of Titan, and he has a 75% chance of taking down that 250+ point monstrosity which is threatening your army.... a very good trade for your investment, I dare say ;) *Arcoflaggelants - Usually people only use DCAs or Cusaders, but since Daemons all have Invul saves, then lots of high Strength attacks are in order, which is exactly what the Arco brings: on the charge, they each get 5 WS5 S5 attacks, which can potentially chew up C: CD troop choices pretty well. *Dark Excommunication - Aw, the most underutilized power in the book right now. DKs and Libbys have access to it and I dare say many might reconsider using it in the near future. Nothing like making an entire unit lose all of their Daemonic Gifts with a single pyschic test.... very decisive potential against any force with C: CD or CD allies in it. *Truesilver armor - Again, almost never used on vehicles, despite its cheap cost....if Chaos Daemons turn out to be the force that I expect them to be, having this little insurance policy might make quite the differnce, as autmatic S6 hits are nothing to laugh at, especially if you are assaulting the vehicle with a horde of T3-T4 models. *Callidus Assassin - Given that a lot of Daemons appear to have low Ld (i.e. around 7), her Nueral Shredder could be particular effective. Also, given that Daemons likely don't have EW anymore (except for a few cases), her C'Tan phase sword can be quite a threat to any multi-wound Daemon units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Check out the rumoured Warp Storm table. Number 11 to be precise. *hopefully* by Psyker it's a single Psyker, and not our entire GK army (bar henchmen). But a Randon roll killing our dudes (with seemingly no save/resistence) and granting them new units. And we have Mordrak... I'm hoping these rumours are baseless. I know GW think RANDOM == FUN, but I'm tired of it with the little amount of randomness we already have. Edit: What's the betting Dark Excomunnication remains rubbish... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3315985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Don't worry. Have a look at the rumor threads in chaos ascendent and liber maleficorum. You'll notice that anything previously considered overpowered about daemons was neutered and replaced with random tables ranging from "hit your own daemon units" (warpstorm table 3,5,6,8,9) to "all daemons roll LD or die" (2), while the 3 positive results (on 2d6) are: +1 saves this turn (10), a single random enemy psyker may die (11), get 2d6+3 troops (12). Expect big units of ~10pt daemons, some beasts and some monstrous creatures that your ranged weapons and characters will easily defeat, after which the rest dies from instability. The army will pose no thread to any codex out there, daemon players are quitting already. You GK players may be at a disadvantage, though, paying for anti-daemon-abilities that are mostly overkill/not even needed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3315987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Daemons are losing EW, have to take tons of tests to stay on the board and are constantly rolling on the table or randomness to see if they hurt themselves. GK will roll over them like they're nothing most likely. Thank Kelly once again for doing a great job with a faction he obviously doesn't care about. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3315993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 oh yeah, right! All your force weapons will now actually vanquish greater daemons! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3316004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 So, if my prediction is correct, then GK players might actually have to adjust their lists a little to (gasp) be better at fighting Daemons... crazy, I know! yeah . well at least they can battlebrother in csm for more brutalistic power in the form of a single helldrake . who may have thought that one day a single unit entry will carry two dex , not one . since the time of rhino rush such things didnt happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3316016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Pfft. CSM primary, with three Heldrakes. Chaos Daemons secondary. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3316026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Be waaaaay better off just keeping C:CSM with three hellturkies and not even taking any daemons. Better yet ally with guard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3316031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Anti-Daemon technology will be useless against SW+IG Chaos Legions or GK counts-as Thousand Sons! Run for the hills! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3316066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 From what I've seen about new Daemons, the dominant themes seem to be - Flamers are terrible again - Everything is still pricey and fragile - Lots of random tables to roll random stuff on at random times, randomly, at random - Soulgrinders got an upgrade to kill Flyers, and make their harvester relevant against transports, so now they are even more auto-include - Loss of all Deepstrike, all day So overall, do we even care? - Storm bolter and psycannon still annihilates their infantry handily, even without the re-rolls on 1's from 'Preferred Enemy' - Halberds still kill everything in melee, only big stuff and Daemonettes can match speed, no one has frags either. 'Quicksilver' is also an option, again they have no psyker hard-counters except 'Deny' (which doesn't proc on buff powers anyway), and one terrible lolsorandum!!!! wargear item to snipe him with. - Between Daemonbane and 'Preferred Enemy', we have to try to lose melee battles - Purifiers laugh at your 5++ with 'Cleansing Flame'. - Dreadknight will be key for murdering 'Grinders, as PsyDreads can't do it reliably (AV13, urgh), as will good 'ol Vindicare - Dark Excommunition is still worthless trash Not seeing much we'll change. Maybe sub in a DK for the usual pair of PsyDreads, but otherwise largely unchanged. Castle up, shoot them to death, assault the remnants. 'Prescience' is a little redundant, might actually try out another Discipline. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3316829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 While points costs have gone down for daemon troops, the rest stays expensive. They all keep deepstrike (although max. 50% and from turn 2+ as per the normal rules, icons act as beacons and instruments allow to reserve in pairs like the storm talon for daemons of the same god). Some khorne options grant deny the witch on 4+ (lol a daemon denying the "witch" aka grey knight). Apart from that, if anything, your main difficulty will be actually finding people who still play daemon armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3316841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piousservant Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Sadly, the days of Grey Knights battling Daemonic incursions in something of a David vs. Goliath style confrontation are long gone (both on the tabletop and, worse, in the fluff). Nowadays it seems Grey Knights just go around taking out Daemons like they're playing some kind of inter-galactic wac-a-mole. Hearing all that’s been said about the new Codex you really don’t have anything to worry about, except maybe getting the chance to play a GK vs Daemon game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3316931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 It is kinda amusing, our chosen prey are already hamstrung by a bad codex, we can't even get a good match out of them. At least Marines and IG have the excuse of 'we fight all the Emperor's enemies'. Knights are supposed to be necessary because of daemonic incursions...and yet, we'll never really be tested by them. Allying Chaos Marines doesn't count. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3316938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Worse still, GK themselves offer some of the best rules for certain counts-as traitor Legions ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3316954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Nehekhare, on 28 Feb 2013 - 10:13, said: Worse still, GK themselves offer some of the best rules for certain counts-as traitor Legions Out of curiosity, which legions? I've heard some people say thousand sons, but only a few of them are actually psykers. The rest are just rubric marines, nothing more than mindless automatons really. Now if it was pre-heresy or even post-heresy, pre-rubrik of ahriman, I'd say GKs would work well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3317620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 exactly. Also Word Bearers, radical Inquisitors, heretical cults and Dark Mechanicum. After all, there are no rules to distinguish psionics from sorcery. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3317648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Sadly, the days of Grey Knights battling Daemonic incursions in something of a David vs. Goliath style confrontation are long gone (both on the tabletop and, worse, in the fluff). Nowadays it seems Grey Knights just go around taking out Daemons like they're playing some kind of inter-galactic wac-a-mole. Hearing all that’s been said about the new Codex you really don’t have anything to worry about, except maybe getting the chance to play a GK vs Daemon game. Ha ha! Made me laugh :) but it feels like that really. I don't expect to see many fights against Daemons. There might be some now with the new dex excitement. But that will cool down really fast, from what I have read in the dex. So... I will try to make good use of the little time I have now, and battle daemons as much as possible. Heck I might even try to lose to keep the spirit up for the daemon players. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3318012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 Grey Knight are functionally pre-Heresy Thousand Sons in their outlook and function, and are a great way to model that once great Legion. GKs use sorcery, as they see no difference between psionics and the sorcerous arts practiced by their enemies. GKs use technology based on sorcery, to better defeat their enemies. GKs study the Warp and any Warp entities they encounter, to better combat daemonic incursions. All in all, Grey Knights are what the Thousand Sons were supposed to be when they were loyal to the Emperor, and can be seen as a still loyal founding of the Thousand Sons legion traditions. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3318696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Shadow Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Sadly, the days of Grey Knights battling Daemonic incursions in something of a David vs. Goliath style confrontation are long gone (both on the tabletop and, worse, in the fluff). Nowadays it seems Grey Knights just go around taking out Daemons like they're playing some kind of inter-galactic wac-a-mole. Hearing all that’s been said about the new Codex you really don’t have anything to worry about, except maybe getting the chance to play a GK vs Daemon game. There is a nice little story in the Daemon book about the changeling causing trouble as usual, but all so a seed is planted in a newly ordained grey knight who is uncomfortable with the knights methods, which are basically destroying hundreds of thousands of innocent people trying to escape just so they can catch the changeling. it says no knight has ever fallen to chaos and only time will tell if the new knight (brother Brutus) will be the same but a seed has been planted. I like this as, even though i like the grey knights, i dont think anyone but the Emperor should be totally immune to the lure of chaos Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3319040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Oh dear God. Let's hope Brother Brutus isn't an incorruptible among the incorruptible, that then becomes corrupted... Possibly after being gifted the most powerful Daemon Weapon in the history of the universe (after Crowe takes a Lascannon to the face), and then he turns to Chaos. Or worse yet, goes Renegade... After bathing in the Blood of other In/corruptable Grey Kngihts to shield himself from thier Sorcery. /sigh Edit: Oh my. This 'dex is simultaniously OP and nerfed to hell. I can't quite imagine how GW has managed this... Oh and expect a FAQ asap, otherwise look out for potential 1+ FnP *enemy* units. LoL. Daemons, even with the shocking good statline they have seeming have *no* chance versus GK. Bloodcrushers, T4 with a 6+ Save. LoL. Daemonic Instability coupled with Psyk-out Grenades will ruin any Daemon unit in CC. Flamers nerfed, and from a first casual glance, anything *not* a Greater Deamon (and maybe Skulltaker) or Soul Grinders is pathetic. Too many random tables. You like Random? This is for you! Every shooting phase, have a random chance to lose your army/the game. Most 'wargear' options are random tables. I suppose shooty T stuff can be nasty, but as it's Psychic Powers, bring a Farseer or RP (and don't worry about your own Powers, don't even need Force Weapons. nd if you do, use a Banner...) to shut all that down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3319232 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 imagine that for an imperial codex: for 20pts, your character gets: 0: a power weapon 1: a chainsword 2: a power fist 3: a jump pack 4: terminator armor 5: a stormshield 6: explodes Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3319552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I feel genuinely sorry for the daemons. If the codex is as bad as we think it is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3319693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I've only done a once over through the codex, but this is the first codex that nothing made me say wow. It was just so underwhelmingly unimpressive. I'm going to need to read it more to see if it's as bad as all that, but I'm not holding out any hope. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3319707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Well the G Daemon stat lines are impressive. The rest. Well I do like WS3 minis with no wargear for 6 points, with a Ld of 2. Yup, Ld2. And they'r enot fearless with. And Instability in CC is a Ld test. And snake eyes on the Warpstorm makes you take an Instability test. But at least they are 6 points... Not like they cost as much as a Warrior Accolyte. Oh wait... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3319755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I really don't think the Codex is that bad in power. It's certainly too early to let theory hammer dictate our position. (and yes, I have access to a copy of it) I certainly think, compared to other 6th edition Codex books this one fits right in regarding power. If GW are resetting the system then it's a good thing. Better to have a couple years of imbalance waiting for stuff to catch up, than stuff which is just down right broken and kills hthe enjoyment of the game just because it's trying to fit in with existing products that are out of date anyway. You have to break the cycle somehow. My biggest gripe is the level of book keeping needed will see players getting things wrong and opponents not having a clue, and just generally slow the game down. ***edit*** Oh tell a lie, I don't like the way Chaos Marines are so bland compared to the other new Codex books. They feel an edition behind. Sure it's because they're stuck with a clumsy and bloated boom when they should be split at least into 2, but the fact remains Chaos Marines are the test dummy of 6th and suffer for it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/#findComment-3319811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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