Gentlemanloser Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Flamers got nerfed, Bloodcrushers are aweful now. The Skulltaker is no where near the scary powerhouse he used to be. Blood Letters are all AP3. Daemons have actual Psychic Powers now (and they can be stopped as actual Psychic Powers). But the biggest nerf is the global loss of EW. The new Dex is no where near the 'power' level of the old one. Which was bad, and only propped up by the silly over the top WD buff to Flamers/Screamers. But this is the best dex GW have ever made if you like random charts and rolls. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3319829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 My copy is all at home but aren't the points values reflective of the changes to those units? Bloodletters were AP3 anyway. The loss of toughness in Bloodcrushers is surprising mind. They should never all been EW anyway. Anyway like I said, they are comparable to Chaos Marines and Dark Angels in power, I believe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3319832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 My copy is all at home but aren't the points values reflective of the changes to those units? Bloodletters were AP3 anyway. The loss of toughness in Bloodcrushers is surprising mind. They should never all been EW anyway. Anyway like I said, they are comparable to Chaos Marines and Dark Angels in power, I believe. From what I have seen (not gone through the dex as much atm) the DA codex and CSM has more to offer in "power". Sure the Daemons have big nasty monsters. But the core units are not as scary as CSM and DA can be. And scoring units are the most important units in this game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3319836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 My copy is all at home but aren't the points values reflective of the changes to those units? Bloodletters were AP3 anyway. Yup, but an inherant downpowering (like us) from 5th. The loss of toughness in Bloodcrushers is surprising mind. The loss of thier Armour Save as well. Now they get torrented down by bolter fire. They should never all been EW anyway. Agreed! But that was part of thier old 'power'. Anyway like I said, they are comparable to Chaos Marines and Dark Angels in power, I believe. They have nothing that compares to the Helldrake, and the Dangles have the Ravenwing and Torrent Bolters (with the Power Field!). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3319843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 greater daemon stats won't matter. Every GK will strike first (psyk-out vs. no grenades) and has a force weapon that wounds on a 6+ or better (no EW, only 5++).daemon power level: fun codex (CSM is bad already, these are 1/2 the damage potential and less resilient)daemon fun level: unplayable (random rolling triples turn times) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3319844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 As I said to a mate of mine (old Daemon player quite interested in using the minis again), GK will beat the Daemons, every time. But the Dameons will roll over most others with Soul Grinders and high stat Greater Deamons. As long as you don't randomly destroy your own army. Randomly. Of course. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3319850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 so why not play rock-paper-scissors instead? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3319855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Indeed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3319863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 It does point out GK need an update. They do have the edge big time on Daemons in this edition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3319878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 same goes for SW, BT, IG. most codices that have an edge are overdue for updates. this is because the newer codices are blunt ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3319882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 They wouldn't be blunt if all of them were updated. My hope is the reason quality checking has evaporated is because they're getting so much out the door and we'll see another 2 Codex books released at least this year, with plenty more next year. Then we will can judge the Codex books more fairly. And I get my Ultramarines updated too, ahem. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3319889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Thing is, we're not really anti-daemon any more. We have Prefered Enemy (and who doesn't in some for now days...) and Daemonbane (which while nice, Instability will usually have more effect). And that's it. Well, not inlcuding the Psilencer no one uses, ever. And Dark Excommunication, which is the same. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3319893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Codex quality depends on compilation time (cut) and playtesting (cut). Sales are not about quality, but quantity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3319899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 It does point out GK need an update. They do have the edge big time on Daemons in this edition. Why should they nerf our codex? Ward wrote us a great book, the answer isn't 'make everything as bad as Daemons'. Make Daemons decent instead. I dunno why all the 6th edition books are so mediocre. CSM are very samey with a few new toys, Dangles are a bit better now but still expensive and low model count, and now Daemons are worthless trash again (hai 5th edition, we missed you). I doubt they'll make SM bad...but this doesn't bode well for Eldar, Tau or Orks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3320490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 "nerf paper, scissors are fine" said the stone ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3320509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 The 6th edition books are mediocre supposedly because that's the direction the dev team wants to take new codex books. Whether that's true or not who knows. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3320579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Why should they nerf our codex? Ward wrote us a great book, the answer isn't 'make everything as bad as Daemons'. Make Daemons decent instead. Indeed. One of the largest gripes about our 'dex is that you can literally choose units at random, and still get a great, competitive army out of it. Nearly all the units are worthwhile and strong. Isn't that the way all dexes should be? If it was, I know there'd be a lot less GK hate. Look at the Daemon 'dex. There is a wealth of 'worthless' sub-par units (worthless, as they compete for space with other, better units). Fix them. But on top of that, Daemons are hamgstrung overall by restrictive global special rules, or lack of them (like transports or viable Psychic defense). That's just design flaws, nothing to do with our 'dex, or how good it is. (Caveat: all subjective nouns are just that, subjective. Your point of reference for good, bad, competitive, fun, worthless and powerful might be totally different to everyone elses.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3320661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamv6 Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 The new codexes are all about driving model sales, nothing more, nothing less. GW sells models, the codexes are a sideline which help to drive model sales. Hence the CSM FAQ. You can just imagine how the sales / marketing meeting went. "Analysis of the sales of the Helldrake show we are 50% down on prediction. Any suggestions on how to resolve this? Reduce price? Special offers?" "How about we release an FAQ that makes it able to shoot at anything in any direction? It will be so OP people will flock from every corner of the earth to buy them!" On first impressions, nothing in the new Daemon codex is that concerning for GKs, but like others have alluded too, it looks like a great codex for fun games. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3320679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 You can just imagine how the sales / marketing meeting went. Was that in the GW HQ battlebunker beneath the tower of London, where they regularly meet with Doctor Doom, the Grinch and a representative of the Republican party to have seal pubs for dinner and summon the spirit of Hitler? Naa, I think it's just lazyness. White dwarf rules updates are the real moneygrab. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3320733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Why should they nerf our codex? Ward wrote us a great book, the answer isn't 'make everything as bad as Daemons'. Make Daemons decent instead. Indeed. One of the largest gripes about our 'dex is that you can literally choose units at random, and still get a great, competitive army out of it. Nearly all the units are worthwhile and strong. Isn't that the way all dexes should be? If it was, I know there'd be a lot less GK hate. Look at the Daemon 'dex. There is a wealth of 'worthless' sub-par units (worthless, as they compete for space with other, better units). Fix them. But on top of that, Daemons are hamgstrung overall by restrictive global special rules, or lack of them (like transports or viable Psychic defense). That's just design flaws, nothing to do with our 'dex, or how good it is. (Caveat: all subjective nouns are just that, subjective. Your point of reference for good, bad, competitive, fun, worthless and powerful might be totally different to everyone elses.) Would those same "sub par" units still be so terrible if all the Codex books were updated to be along the same lines? Do we really want to oppose change just because we want our Codex to maintain what it has now? And we have to remember that change doesn't have to be bland and boring. Except for Chaos Marines who seem to lose out on the level of detail and depth all the other Codex books are enjoying in 6th. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3320755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Yes. You still wouldn't choose them, as there are better choices competing for the same slots, in the same army codex. We don't want to oppose change. But rather have the *right* change. Make all dexes as good as the 'edge' ones, not make all equally bad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3320808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 i dont think anyone but the Emperor should be totally immune to the lure of chaos Well, considering he is being corrupted in the warp too... I really don't think the Codex is that bad in power. It's certainly tooearly to let theory hammer dictate our position. (and yes, I have access to a copy of it) I certainly think, compared to other 6th edition Codex books this one fits right in regarding power. If GW are resetting the system then it's a good thing. Better to have a couple years of imbalance waiting for stuff to catch up, than stuff which is just down right broken and kills hthe enjoyment of the game just because it's trying to fit in with existing products that are out of date anyway. You have to break the cycle somehow. My biggest gripe is the level of book keeping needed will see players getting things wrong and opponents not having a clue, and just generally slow the game down. ***edit*** Oh tell a lie, I don't like the way Chaos Marines are so bland compared to the other new Codex books. They feel an edition behind. Sure it's because they're stuck with a clumsy and bloated boom when they should be split at least into 2, but the fact remains Chaos Marines are the test dummy of 6th and suffer for it. Back then, the DA and CSM were the most atrocious codices and were released just before the "Let's go overkill" new codex policy. Now, they are the first to experiment the "No more overkill, slightly underpowered and very VERY bland !" policy. I don't really think it's purely innocent from GW. Bah, it's not like if the chaos community really mattered anymore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3320815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 It does point out GK need an update. They do have the edge big time on Daemons in this edition. Why should they nerf our codex? Ward wrote us a great book, the answer isn't 'make everything as bad as Daemons'. Make Daemons decent instead. I dunno why all the 6th edition books are so mediocre. CSM are very samey with a few new toys, Dangles are a bit better now but still expensive and low model count, and now Daemons are worthless trash again (hai 5th edition, we missed you). I doubt they'll make SM bad...but this doesn't bode well for Eldar, Tau or Orks. LOL! Grey Knights, Necrons, Imp Guard, Blood Angels and Space wolves, those books are in dire need of updates (and much nerfing). This comment made my day: "Ward wrote us a great book". He wrote you a piece of :cuss so bad that people didnt like to play against it back then, and while the now balanced and good 6ed codices are comming it (notice how equal daemons, Da and CSM are in power lv as opposed to the Power creep :cusse in 5ed whichyou obviously preferred since it makes it easier for you to win), it becomes clearer and clearer how horrifyingly God-awful these Ward dexes actually are. For your info, its not daemons that are "worthless", its Grey Knights that are obscene, just like many of those horrible 5ed books. Blah, sometimes I loose faith in the world when I read stuff written by obvious powergamers who care nothing, nothing at all for balance, and only want an instant-win army (i.e. one of those outrageous Ward dexes). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3320908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Why should they nerf our codex? Ward wrote us a great book, the answer isn't 'make everything as bad as Daemons'. Make Daemons decent instead. Indeed. One of the largest gripes about our 'dex is that you can literally choose units at random, and still get a great, competitive army out of it. Nearly all the units are worthwhile and strong. Isn't that the way all dexes should be? If it was, I know there'd be a lot less GK hate. Look at the Daemon 'dex. There is a wealth of 'worthless' sub-par units (worthless, as they compete for space with other, better units). Fix them. But on top of that, Daemons are hamgstrung overall by restrictive global special rules, or lack of them (like transports or viable Psychic defense). That's just design flaws, nothing to do with our 'dex, or how good it is. (Caveat: all subjective nouns are just that, subjective. Your point of reference for good, bad, competitive, fun, worthless and powerful might be totally different to everyone elses.) Would those same "sub par" units still be so terrible if all the Codex books were updated to be along the same lines? Do we really want to oppose change just because we want our Codex to maintain what it has now? And we have to remember that change doesn't have to be bland and boring. Except for Chaos Marines who seem to lose out on the level of detail and depth all the other Codex books are enjoying in 6th. 100% sensible and logical post. And yes, while CSM is hardly "weak", it does suffer from being the first 6ed and yes, it is a bit "bland". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3320911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Seriously, the new Daemon is is far from good... The major thing wrong with the GK dex is that nearly every unit is 'good', which utterly highlights the poor design of other dexes. Where units compete versus each other. Take the new DA Dex for an example. (Points could be off a point of two, but I hope you get the gist...) Why *ever* choose DA Scouts, when DA Tacticals are a point more per man, with better stats and options. Do we want to go *backwards* in design? And have codexes with 1 or two shine out examples of 'good'/'must have' units, while the rest is dross you only ever take if you absolutley have to? Or do we want GW to get things right, and make each individual unit desirable to take? I know which I'd prefer... LOL! Grey Knights, Necrons, Imp Guard, Blood Angels and Space wolves, those books are in dire need of updates (and much nerfing). Bangles need nerfing? The only thing, unbalanced about 'crons are the night scythes. Which is *no* fault of the 'dex, but rather the ham fisted Flyer rules themsevels. Balanced Fliers, and you see 'cons instantly move down to balanced to /meh in the overall scheme of things. Only thing IG really need sorting is the 50 man blob. Og and their, you guessed it, Flyer. Sort Flyer rules. These are skewing peoples perceptions of what's good/bad with 40k. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/2/#findComment-3320922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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