Daemons.... a shift in the GK paradigm (?)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Had a read of the codex itself. 

 

HQ:

 

A gorillion options. All the MC's are dead killy and have insane statlines...but none of them have assault grenades, so sadface if you are in an Aegis line or area terrain. Oh, and you can spam 4 Heralds per HQ slot, which is kinda neat. Greater Daemon+4 Heralds is gonna be normal I think. 

 

The only 'get out of jail' cards for negating difficult terrain I1 charges are as follows;

- Skullcannon puts out counters after it fires, if you charge a unit hit by it, you ignore difficult terrain penalty to your Initiative

- Soporific Musk is -5, but our halberds (or 'Quicksilver') put us back up to I3/I5, so it only works on units without either buff

- The 1-2 power from Slannesh's psychic table replicates 'Soporific Musk', but also shuts down 'Counter-Attack' and Overwatch shooting, which is pretty good if you roll it

 

Elites:

 

Bloodcrushers confirmed to have 6+ armour. My sides shattered instantly. 

Flamers confirmed to have AP4 on flames. Ah well...

Fiends are largely the same, see Soporific Musk though, no more assault grenades...

 

Loss of EW means they're all PsyDread bait anyway. That and a single allied Russ will squish a whole unit with one blast. Sad really...

 

Troops:

 

Bloodletters lost T4, because...yeah...well they are cheaper now, Servitor price but still derpy AP3 melee, so our TDA units roll over them just fine, and no grenades of course, BS5 for some reason, but they have no guns...GW design ethos at its finest. 

Horrors...they have to cast their gun as a psychic power, and the smaller they get, the less Warp Charges. Ld10 for psychic tests, and their shooty power can potentially grant FNP if you pass the Toughness test, lolwut. Just bad...

Daemonettes remain awful, shock and/or horror

Plaguebearers retain T4, but lose FNP (wut), have to get it back via powers or Herald stuff...they have Shrouded, but template weapons and 'Ignore Cover' still purge them. Incinerators are probably best if you know you'll be up against them, the Trogdor Purgator build works great and is cheap enough to fit most lists. 

 

Fast Attack:

 

Screamers go down to 1 attack with AP2, or normal boring attacks. Still have their flyover attack, but again, no AP, so we don't care

Plague Drones cost more than Terminators to begin with...they have cool options, but way too expensive for what they do. PsyDread bait if ever I saw it. 

 

Heavy Support:

 

Soulgrinders continue being the best option by far. The only Skyfire (aside from token quad-gun/Icarus), and its still only a 3-shot autocannon. Still retains the reduced range battle cannon for squishing our power armoured squads, so a DK is a good investment to quickly kill him off. 

Princes (provided they have same God) become Heavy choices if you have one of the four GD flavours as a HQ. 

Skullcannon is AP5, so only Henchmen and Allied stuff care about it. S8 though, so it does wound reliably. As I mentioned earlier, it has a proc to ignore the I1 penalty for melee, so kill it off early to deny this option. 

 

 

Troops are their real liability, once again Plaguebearer spam seems to be the only valid choice in a pure list (CSM of course bring excellent Troops options as an Ally). At least Plaguebearers are cheaper now, so if you leave off the upgrades, you can field blobs and play the waiting game. 

My prediction is the GD's and Princes will give us the most trouble. They'll pull apart the poor ol' Dreadknight with little trouble (GUO excepted, as DK goes at I4 and will kill him first), and the Daemon player will likely stuff his list full of random anti-psyker gear to screw with our casting of force weapons. Bro Banner is very much clutch in this matchup, he has to send in a GD or Prince to kill Terminators, nothing else can touch them at range or melee (except the random lascannon power, which will be rare). 'Quicksilver' is also going to be pretty handy for getting out of 'Soporific Musk', combined with halberds you'll still swing ahead of plenty of stuff. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Soporific Musk is -5, but our halberds (or 'Quicksilver') put us back up to I3/I5, so it only works on units without either buff

Be careful there.

As the Halberd are additions, it's down to the owning players turn to decide order. And when the Daemons charge it will be Halberds first, Musk second.

Quicksilver will leave us at 10, as as a 'set' value, it comes after any additions/subtractions.

Bloodletters lost T4, because...yeah...well they are cheaper now, Servitor price but still derpy AP3 melee, so our TDA units roll over them just fine, and no grenades of course, BS5 for some reason, but they have no guns...GW design ethos at its finest.

Khorne is the shooty God now. ;)

What with Shouts and Lashes.

[Seahawk]

Yep.

 

When Fiends charge, you'll be at I1, tops. 4+2-5=1. No other way about it, because it only affects the first round of combat. Dunno how you ever got to I3/5...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Be careful there.

As the Halberd are additions, it's down to the owning players turn to decide order. And when the Daemons charge it will be Halberds first, Musk second.

Quicksilver will leave us at 10, as as a 'set' value, it comes after any additions/subtractions.

Urgh. I hate this stuff. Why can't GW just state 'modifiers always apply in this order, forever'. Making it player's discretion just means shenanigans by both sides. At least 'Quicksilver' still works...

Kinda moot point anyway, if you think about it. Our shooting phase+Overwatch will cause plenty of casualties (Preferred Enemy does that), and 'Cleansing Flame'/2+ armour means Purifiers/Terminators trade pretty well in melee. Strikes and Purgators are dead in melee, but that is nothing new.

Khorne is the shooty God now.

What with Shouts and Lashes.

I guess. Still kinda dumb when most Khorne units are all about hacky, not shooty. Bloodletters with guns would probably make Horrors completely irrelevant though, so yeah.

Yep.

When Fiends charge, you'll be at I1, tops. 4+2-5=1. No other way about it, because it only affects the first round of combat. Dunno how you ever got to I3/5...

I was assuming 'Musk' gets applied first (taking you down to I1, as you can't go lower than I1 in melee), then halberd +2 bonus applies, bringing you up to I3.

With ''Quicksilver', I again assumed we cast it first, then they apply 'Musk', thus I5. Although as Gentlemanloser pointed out, its actually a set modifier, like Banshee Mask, so I10 always if it gets cast.

[thade]

Urgh. I hate this stuff. Why can't GW just state 'modifiers always apply in this order, forever'. Making it player's discretion just means shenanigans by both sides.

This is only true if one or both players involved are disregarding The Most Important Rule and The Spirit of the Game rule.

 

I will concede that Warhammer 40k is poorly suited for competitive play, as balancing shenanigans when both players are purely out to win is basically an impossible task.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm sorry Thade, but even holding on the Golden Rule tightly, when the rules say "in your turn, play to your advantage", then doing so isn't disregarding anything.

 

Otherwise we might just as well not record Victory Points, lest we upset the narative by getting more than our opponents...

 

In which case, go play Deathwatch (which while having small failings is an otherwise awesome narative game) which you can also use your minis and boards with.

[Seahawk]

I was assuming 'Musk' gets applied first (taking you down to I1, as you can't go lower than I1 in melee), then halberd +2 bonus applies, bringing you up to I3. 

 

Actually, you'd go down to Initiative 0, then come back up to 2, but that's besides the point. ;)

[thade]

I'm sorry Thade, but even holding on the Golden Rule tightly, when the rules say "in your turn, play to your advantage", then doing so isn't disregarding anything.

 

Otherwise we might just as well not record Victory Points, lest we upset the narative by getting more than our opponents...

 

In which case, go play Deathwatch (which while having small failings is an otherwise awesome narative game) which you can also use your minis and boards with.

Jumping from one extreme to the other is a very easy way to bulk up a strawman. You can both play to your advantage and yet still adhere to the 'polite style of play' rules. Simply put, if a rule interpretation could either serve to make your models/army stronger or weaker, and it's not definitively clear which, make them weaker. If both players at the table stick to this interpretation, there's never a reason for a temper to flare and the game turns out to be very fun.

 

"Playing to your advantage" does not mean "Interpreting the rules to your advantage."

[Gentlemanloser]

I never said that, nor was that implied anywhere.

 

The situation with addition/subtraction from stats isn't an interpretation.  And with the current ruleset encounters with identicle units in play chance turn by turn as the order of important buffs/debuffs is decided entirely in the favour of the player whos turn it is.

 

Which is frankly a bizare decision for game balance.

[the jeske]

Cant wait for eldar to kill w40k . :D but jokes aside [well the part about killing the eldar dex is going to be AWESOME] , the demon dex is too random for non casual play and that is it . there is just too much stuff that makes it hurt itself . and it doesnt matter that technicly you have the same chance to get something awesome[unit goes puff vs unit regains all wounds] , no one wants an army that has a 25% chance to lose 25% to win and 50% chance to be meh random. Demons a horde army was  a good idea [although trying to do it was like doing nid codex 2.0] , nerfing of power units happens[well not for chaos . we have third edition of oblits being king and second of pms rocking , even if both were nerfed] , new units being the bomb [ok that doesnt realy happen ,unless one counts the grinder as new and the flys are only kind of a good] all stuff that should happen . But making stuff random xX ? not realy. Now I understand that in a world when JJ rolls everything all the time being more random is being more awesome . That can even be true if you plan to play a game per month [probably at 2k+size] . But for regular play , I need w40k the way Chambers did it or H-man , I can deal with Ward[i dont have to read fluff to play] , that is my w40k . But in the end kelly is going to make eldar the same way he always makes them and we can have fun in the second part of 6th ed.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

@ Thade: I'd much rather GW came out with a clear, exact wording for how modifiers are supposed to interact. That means the rules are consistently applied, regardless of codex differences and relative advantages. That to me is preferable than 'my turn its X, your turn its Y'. The problem with your system is everyone will play to their advantage. This is a competitive wargame, its implied in the fact there is a winner and a loser by the end (usually). It's an unrealistic expectation that people won't do exactly that, try to win. Not because people are WAAC power-gamers, just that we're all in it to win it. 

 

On the other hand, I think it is fine for both parties to house-rule stuff. I agree GW fail to make things clear sometimes, and players have to interpret it as best they can. The difference is, I'd have both players agree to ONE interpretation, preferably before the game starts. That may not be the 'weaker' interpretation, but the important thing is that a consistent rule is agreed to by both sides. 

[thade]

@ Thade: I'd much rather GW came out with a clear, exact wording for how modifiers are supposed to interact.

We all would, my friend. I certainly would.

That means the rules are consistently applied, regardless of codex differences and relative advantages. That to me is preferable than 'my turn its X, your turn its Y'. The problem with your system is everyone will play to their advantage. This is a competitive wargame, its implied in the fact there is a winner and a loser by the end (usually). It's an unrealistic expectation that people won't do exactly that, try to win. Not because people are WAAC power-gamers, just that we're all in it to win it.

I've never played in a game where it's been that black-and-white; we're not strict heuristic machines...we're people. So, when I say "Assume whatever makes my troops weaker" I mean "in all cases" and I also mean "consistent no matter whose turn it is." If you ever find yourself flip-flopping on a rule interpretation because one way gives you an advantage on your turn and the other way gives you an advantage on your opponents turn, that's a lil dodgy.

Of course, you might find yourself in a situation where Interpretation A benefits you on your turn and Intepretation B benefits your opponent on their turn. Personally in those cases I recommend we invert that and both take disadvantages. But if nobody is suffering, does it matter? Only in a tournie, I guess.

On the other hand, I think it is fine for both parties to house-rule stuff. I agree GW fail to make things clear sometimes, and players have to interpret it as best they can. The difference is, I'd have both players agree to ONE interpretation, preferably before the game starts. That may not be the 'weaker' interpretation, but the important thing is that a consistent rule is agreed to by both sides.

On that we certainly agree.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I've never played in a game where it's been that black-and-white; we're not strict heuristic machines...we're people. So, when I say "Assume whatever makes my troops weaker" I mean "in all cases" and I also mean "consistent no matter whose turn it is." If you ever find yourself flip-flopping on a rule interpretation because one way gives you an advantage on your turn and the other way gives you an advantage on your opponents turn, that's a lil dodgy.

Not dodgy really. 40k is all about finding synergies or rule interactions that stack/proc together/benefit. I'm not saying I like all the loopholes in 40k, or that I even use them, but its a realistic expectation that people can and will use the exploits that legally exist. Mind you, GW are getting better at thinking ahead with rule interactions, but we can all recite stupid oversights that still exist and are readily used in-game. That's pretty much the meta-game of 40k, making the rules work to your advantage.

Case in point; Vindicare 'Deadeye' not procing through 'Look Out Sir!'. Would've been very relevant and contentious prior to the FAQ ruling, as obviously I want my super-sniper taking out Priests, powerfists, heavy/special weapons etc. Having it work on my turn, but not during Overwatch in the enemy turn would've been silly and just lead to arguments. Now of course, Vindicare works as intended (although no shooting into combat :( ), but you can see what I mean.

Of course, you might find yourself in a situation where Interpretation A benefits you on your turn and Intepretation B benefits your opponent on their turn. Personally in those cases I recommend we invert that and both take disadvantages. But if nobody is suffering, does it matter? Only in a tournie, I guess.

It matters in pick-up games too, or even with friends. Consistent rules (insofar as 40k allows such things) make the game faster and more enjoyable. Every army in 40k has shenanigans they can pull which you don't like as an opponent, so you plan in advance. Having specific shenanigans change depending on the mood of your opponent or you is annoying and just leads to conflict. Like I said, gentleman's agreement prior to the match. It's how I handle terrain disputes, we just make everything not a building 5+, buildings 4+, bunkers 3+.

On that we certainly agree.

Gah, you're way ahead of me. Disregard the above lol

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Moving back to the OP:

 

I gave a wide rundown of the codex previously. Now I wanna talk the power build (singular, as I really don't think you can vary much from it) that Knights may need to worry about.

 

HQ:

 

GD (all of them have insane statlines, BT and LoC are probably the best though)

Four Heralds (Nurgle mostl likely, to hide with the Troops)

Allied CSM Prince (Black Mace, wings, standard stuff)

 

Elites:

 

Lol no

 

Troops:

 

Plaguebearers (3-4)

Token Cultists for unlock

 

Fast Attack:

 

Heldrake (tee hee)

 

Heavy Support:

 

Grinder

Grinder

Prince

 

 

That's basically how its going to look, in the worst case scenario. Plaguebearers do what they did last edition, GtG on objectives and be annoying to remove. Everything else runs at you and tries to get through your Shooting phase.

 

GD: BT is obvious, you need a melee hero to deal with him. Grandmaster with halberd is faster, and he's a great utility hero anyway. Libby with warding stave can also tie him up in a challenge and ID him with double 'Hammerhand' (Libby cast+squad cast).

Taking out the LoC is different. He'll likely hang back and use his wings to reposition, handing out Divination to key pieces (like the other monsters). He has to go a different Lore for shooting now though. Given his speed, a Raven delivering a combat squad of Termies/Pallies is a good way to get rid of him. Failing that, a DK with sword+teleporter is fast enough to catch him. You're unlikely to die to the LoC's attacks if you charge him, and provided you turn on force weapon you'll break that 3++ with all your re-rolled attacks/wounds.

 

Princes: Similar stuff. If they're hacky, bait them with your Warlord. If they're shooty, tie them down with a fast asset.

 

Grinders: A real headache for our usual firepower. A Raven can weather their flak mode and multi-melta+lascannon them to death. Ideally though, I'd have multiple Ravens. PsyDreads just won't cut it, these things have 4HP and AV13. Failing that, you can trade a melee unit provided you have enough hammer attacks boosted by 'Hammerhand'. Even with the charge putting him down to I1 (due to psyk-out), you'll still probably lose most of the squad.

 

Heldrake: Raven is the best solution, as the Heldrake can't kill it and your multi-melta+lascannon should remove it fairly quickly. Failing that, an Icarus or massed psycannon with 'Divination' re-rolls should kill it. It's a real problem though, basically means you can't have power armour on the board while its alive. It'll roast our poor Strikes and Purifiers with every bombing run.

 

 

The Plaguebearers we can remove with plasma servitors or regular massed firepower. Melee will also get rid of them, they're just as woeful as last edition.

[Aethernitas]

Thank god - after over a month we've finally found the one definite power build to model our armys after :P

I don't think one can classify daemons after such a short time or even in near future as the meta keeps changing due to the new codex releases every 2 month or so. I've played three games against daemons so far. Two with Imps+GK and one with Nids. I won the Imp+GK games (the first one with the loss of only a terminator and a a crippled dreadnought - poor daemons ) and managed a draw with Nids but I wouldn`t really count any of those as my opponent was testing out nearly every single unit in the dex and hasn't even begun to think about an all comers list to get more familiar with.

I guess GK won't have to worry much about Daemons anyways as we get unfair advantages like daemonbane and preferred enemy (which is huge) for practically free. I REALLY hope for an early 6th dex for Daemonhunters (instead of just GKs) to even the odds a little and to give us the option to diversify a little more.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Thank god - after over a month we've finally found the one definite power build to model our armys after

It's the template that I keep seeing pop up on the net. And quite honestly, I've gone through the book, and its basically all they have. Their infantry evaporate to any decent anti-infantry pressure, their Elite mainstays (Crushers, Flamers, Fiends) got nerfed into oblivion. FA has some interesting stuff but it just dies too easily (shrug). It's like with Nids, the big guys get the job done and can live through more shooting+melee. Seeing as the only worthwhile Ally for Daemons (CSM) is a known entity, newer releases won't really change the picture much. If anything, Tau being good at shooting will make Daemons cry even more.

I don't think one can classify daemons after such a short time or even in near future as the meta keeps changing due to the new codex releases every 2 month or so. I've played three games against daemons so far. Two with Imps+GK and one with Nids. I won the Imp+GK games (the first one with the loss of only a terminator and a a crippled dreadnought - poor daemons ) and managed a draw with Nids but I wouldn`t really count any of those as my opponent was testing out nearly every single unit in the dex and hasn't even begun to think about an all comers list to get more familiar with.

Read the statlines and special rules. Then read the point costs. GW have totally screwed this up. I'm not being alarmist, just read the book. Unless they majorly FAQ, and I'm talking total rules overhaul/re-costing of things (which is very unlikely), Daemons are back to being worst army in 40k.

I guess GK won't have to worry much about Daemons anyways as we get unfair advantages like daemonbane and preferred enemy (which is huge) for practically free. I REALLY hope for an early 6th dex for Daemonhunters (instead of just GKs) to even the odds a little and to give us the option to diversify a little more.

Unfair? Lol, we're the daemon slayers. Of course we do well against them.

In any case, I don't think its that cut and dry. There are ways to negate our halberds, or wipe out our power armoured squads before they can contribute (Grinders, Allied Heldrakes, Princes eating Strikes/Purgators). As I said, with the power build I mentioned, Daemons can actually cause problems for an unprepared player. Slanneshi stuff in particular is a real concern, as massed Rending or the big monster AP2 in melee will rip through our handful of infantry quite fast.

We already have plenty of diversity. Henchmen are great, we have excellent Ally options (IG, Space Wolves, Necrons, Orks, maybe new Tau if they're good), and even with just pure Knights there are plenty of variants (standard, Knightwing, Draigowing, Purifier army, Raven lists, DK lists, hybrids thereof, etc). I'm sure we'll get nerfed a bit in our update, but that won't be till the end of 6th (if that). Quite honestly, we don't need any changes for the foreseeable future.

[Aethernitas]

It's the template that I keep seeing pop up on the net. And quite honestly, I've gone through the book, and its basically all they have. Their infantry evaporate to any decent anti-infantry pressure, their Elite mainstays (Crushers, Flamers, Fiends) got nerfed into oblivion. FA has some interesting stuff but it just dies too easily (shrug). It's like with Nids, the big guys get the job done and can live through more shooting+melee. Seeing as the only worthwhile Ally for Daemons (CSM) is a known entity, newer releases won't really change the picture much. If anything, Tau being good at shooting will make Daemons cry even more.

So what you are saying is: What you found on the WH40K sites of your choice and what you could think of when reading the book is all there is? Thats quite the attitude you've got. I wouldn't dare to say that I thought of all the things daemons are potentially capable of, leave alone grasping their full potential. Sure units got "nerfed" but "getting nerfed" is not an indicator for the absolute effectiveness of the unit in it's new state - it only means that something gets weakened in order to balance the overall game.

Crushers are cavalry now which is BIG but lost toughness and their armoursave. Add a herald on a juggernaut and some rewards and play the wound allocation game. Simultaniously charge with multiply units to mess up their target priority. Use Grimoire on Fateweaver to give them a 3+ invul save...

Flamers are now actually balanced: S4 AP4 Flamer on a 2 wounds jump unit? Yes please! It's not like the old version which imo was obviously op but it still destroys all GEQs and friends. Against MEQ and TEQ it's still better than normal flamers as warpflame has the potential to kill 1 to 3 MEQ/TEQs regardless of armour. Also a nice unit to put your Tzeentch heralds with bolt even though I would prefer screamers.

Fiends got nerfed? I would say they have been given another role. Instead of thoughtlessly charging them into units they are now a assault support unit to let even your slowest possible units strike first or at least at the same time as pretty much everything. Oh look, they even got another wound to increase your chances of getting them into cc.

Yeah I'm sure Tau will have a real blast facing deeptstriking Horrors, Flamers, Warptstorms, Skull cannons and stuff. Actually I'm REALLY curious how those dexes would fare against each other

Read the statlines and special rules. Then read the point costs. GW have totally screwed this up. I'm not being alarmist, just read the book. Unless they majorly FAQ, and I'm talking total rules overhaul/re-costing of things (which is very unlikely), Daemons are back to being worst army in 40k.

I did. I noticed that most units got cheaper - others got more expensive. The word on the street says thats what happens if there is a new codex and units, unit roles, codex theme/focus and synergies change.

Unfair? Lol, we're the daemon slayers. Of course we do well against them.

Indeed we are daemon slayers. Back in the old Daemonhunter times we slew daemons too. I really like how the new rules reflect the fluff even better nowadays but right now it's a free bonus versus one (maybe two armys when considering alliies) specific army for which we pay no points at all. The old Daemonhunter dex had daemonic infestation so why not bring that back to allow the daemon player to - for example - "recycle" his troops on a set roll a little like endless swarm or 'send the next wave' in the guard dex? That would help balance things from a mechanics pov and would make the classic Ordo Malleus vs Daemons even fluffier!

In any case, I don't think its that cut and dry. There are ways to negate our halberds, or wipe out our power armoured squads before they can contribute (Grinders, Allied Heldrakes, Princes eating Strikes/Purgators). As I said, with the power build I mentioned, Daemons can actually cause problems for an unprepared player. Slanneshi stuff in particular is a real concern, as massed Rending or the big monster AP2 in melee will rip through our handful of infantry quite fast.

We already have plenty of diversity. Henchmen are great, we have excellent Ally options (IG, Space Wolves, Necrons, Orks, maybe new Tau if they're good), and even with just pure Knights there are plenty of variants (standard, Knightwing, Draigowing, Purifier army, Raven lists, DK lists, hybrids thereof, etc). I'm sure we'll get nerfed a bit in our update, but that won't be till the end of 6th (if that). Quite honestly, we don't need any changes for the foreseeable future.

Exactly - it's not cut and dry but one still has to acknowledge that GKs were balanced without considering the immense advantage when playing against daemons and daemons only. One could also argue that this was exactly what they did with the old Daemonhunters: Balancing it exclusively versus daemons even though that was one of their hardest match-ups still

The diversity you are talking about comes solely from taking Cotaez to open the possibilty of henchman armies (without considering allies - otherwise pretty much every single codex except for Nids could be called diverse). Without Cotaez practically every single one of our units uses the same weapons, has the same profile, can take the same special weapons (cc and shooting) and are equally versatile. 'Of course' you say - those are Grey Knights and they mostly specialize killing them godamn daemons' and you are of course right BUT I really wish they would have expanded a little more on the many options a Inquisition-army provides.

Instead they predicate pretty much all the options for representing a more 'realistic' Inquisition army on one overly cheap named model. Some people I know don't even play named characters at all and some others (like me) hate the idea of basing a whole army on a a named model. I'm aware that IG can help present inducted troops but it's not the same in any way and building a authentic Inquisition list for under 2000 points is a real pain in the ass.

... ok thats a little longer than intended and contains some minor rants

[Gentlemanloser]

Sure units got "nerfed" but "getting nerfed" is not an indicator for the

absolute effectiveness of the unit in it's new state - it only means

that something gets weakened in order to balance the overall game.

There's balance or rebalance. And there there's lol nerfed into the ground baby!

'crushers got hit with the second. As did Flamers.

Overall, the *entire* army got hit with 'to the ground'. Loss of EW and changing all 'powers' to be actual Psychic Powers this time were massive nerfs that were not recompensed in any way.

And let's not mention Instability.

Indeed we are daemon slayers. Back in the old Daemonhunter times we slew

daemons too. I really like how the new rules reflect the fluff even

better nowadays but right now it's a free bonus versus one (maybe two

armys when considering alliies) specific army for which we pay no points

at all.

It's more than that. I had forgotten that 'Daemonbane' actually effects Psykers as well.

The only purely anti Daemon things we get (bar PE ofcourse) are Dark Excommunication and the Psilencer. And no one uses those.

[Aethernitas]

There's balance or rebalance. And there there's lol nerfed into the ground baby!

'crushers got hit with the second. As did Flamers.

Overall, the *entire* army got hit with 'to the ground'. Loss of EW and changing all 'powers' to be actual Psychic Powers this time were massive nerfs that were not recompensed in any way.

And let's not mention Instability.

So your plan is to just ignore whatever argument I bring up and throw some "lol nerfed to the ground baby" at me while sticking to your point even if it seems quite obvious that you haven't paid much thought apart from reading through the codex once or twice and judging units in a vacuum. Considering that all this comes from a guy who not long ago hasn't even played a 6th edition game, leave alone played some matches with or against daemons. It's like we are playing tug-of-war only that you lashed your end to a goddamn tree

It's more than that. I had forgotten that 'Daemonbane' actually effects Psykers as well.

The only purely anti Daemon things we get (bar PE ofcourse) are Dark Excommunication and the Psilencer. And no one uses those.

Saying it's "the only purely anti daemon thing we get" kind of misses the point that PE daemons is a quasi free armywide buff and extremely strong by itself. Every DA, GK or Nids player can assure you that having PE on multiple units against their chosen foe (everyone in case of the tyranids ) is HUGE. Dark Excommunication and Psilencers are just sad examples of missed chances for fluffy AND useful equipment..

[Azekai]

So your plan is to just ignore whatever argument I bring up and throw some "lol nerfed to the ground baby" at me while sticking to your point even if it seems quite obvious that you haven't paid much thought apart from reading through the codex once or twice and judging units in a vacuum. Considering that all this comes from a guy who not long ago hasn't even played a 6th edition game, leave alone played some matches with or against daemons.

 

I have played several games of 6th, and as a daemon and GK player I can tell you that I will be leaving my warpspawn in their case. This iteration of the rules is far too iffy.

As a mono-Nurgle player, losing Epidemius and having my plaguebearers lose T5 is terrible. Nurglings are pointless (what good is tons of wounds on a low S, low T unit with instability??). There are some decent Nurgle options left, but I am not going to gamble with them every round.

Designing armies with in-built glass jaws is a terrible idea. It sucked for Necrons when they had 'phase out' and it sucks for daemons now. Actually, at least the old 'cron players could prepare for phase out; daemon players will win or lose games simply due to vagaries of the dice.

[Aethernitas]

I have played several games of 6th, and as a daemon and GK player I can tell you that I will be leaving my warpspawn in their case. This iteration of the rules is far too iffy.

As a mono-Nurgle player, losing Epidemius and having my plaguebearers lose T5 is terrible. Nurglings are pointless (what good is tons of wounds on a low S, low T unit with instability??). There are some decent Nurgle options left, but I am not going to gamble with them every round.

Designing armies with in-built glass jaws is a terrible idea. It sucked for Necrons when they had 'phase out' and it sucks for daemons now. Actually, at least the old 'cron players could prepare for phase out; daemon players will win or lose games simply due to vagaries of the dice.

You realize I was adressing GL? Just checking...

Anyhow - Plaguebearers are the go to scoring unit of approximately 70% of all Daemon players nowadays cuz they are nigh impossible to completely remove when camping objectives with GtG and Shroud. Nurglings are not a real thread to most MEQ armies but GEQ and Co can't really ignore them when threatening flanks by ifiltrating. Nurglings can also be used to keep them with plaguebearers at objectives and in cover to overwhelm charging opponents with a truckload of attacks. Nurgle Heralds can use biomancy and loci to buff themself and their unit to get very tough. Same with the GUO which is nigh unkillable with a little luck with his biomancy and reward rolls. Nurgle baleswords are generally awesome and daemon princes of nurgle rock hard. Wings + shrouded + jink + balesword equals fun is over for your opponent Beasts of Nurgle are the big winners when it comes to buffed units. They predict will be picked up by a lot of Nurgle players in the near future. Last but not least - the plague drones of Nurgle I haven't played/seen played yet but on paper they look amazing. I'm very curious to see how they will be used.

On another note - I find it a little strange that daemon players now complain about randomness (that can be circumvented in case of primaris powers, rewards or with fateweaver) or actually works in their favour in 7 of 12 cases when in the last edition their whole deployment was completely randomized. Even their whole method of deployment - deepstriking - is random by nature.

[Gentlemanloser]

While you're correct I've not faced Daemons in 6th, I don't expect to.  None of the guys I play with will touch the dex with a barge pole.

 

It's easy to look over the dex, in total, not a vaccum, and see how the army weighs up.

 

Daemon troops suck.  They are only good, and are designed to be good, if run with an attached Herald.  Problem is, there aren't enough herald slots to go round.

 

Thier HQ slots have ludicrously powerful stat lines, and will *murder* anyone that doesn't pack some form of ID.  If you have ID, then the HQ slots are overpirced punchbags.

 

What I mentioned are global nerfs to the entire army that have outright pulled the ground out from beneath them, even before we look at the 'balancing' individual units have received.  And the Warpstorm table does nothing to compensate.

 

Near non existant shooting, that in the majority can be shut down entirely by Psychic Defense.  No Psychic defenses in return.  Being able to ally in a Helldrake doesn't make Daemons a good army...

 

 

Crushers

 

Why would you waste a Herald slot on a Khorne Herlad?

 

 

Flamers

 

Flamer are rubbish versus MEQ.  They need to close to be of any use, and leave themselves open to be shut down from charges now.

 

 

Fiends

 

Expensive Lash Whips that also take a FoC slot.

 

 

Bottom line is if your army brings at the very least, ID capable attacks and Psyhcic Defense, the entire Daemon army is going to face an uphill battle.  regardless of what 'power build' you devise.

 

Add to that a lousy shooting phase, and a general reduciton in the durability of the majority of the units and you have a Codex that really
has little to no strength to play with.

 

You will be outshot, you will be out CCed (especially due to Instability).  And FMCs will be grounded, jink saves or not.

 

(This is all from a MEQ PoV)

 

 

Even their whole method of deployment - deepstriking - is random by nature.

 

That used to be simultaneously a blessing and a curse.

 

One of our players was a hardcore Daemon player when the dex was origianlly released.  And he slaughtered us.  Most of the time.

 

Bad half roll, and bad DS rolls, we just packed up and started again.  Wasn't worth carying on.

 

But when the rolls went well, you had half his army in your DZ turn one.  With the rest coming in off of Icons.  It was too much, to close, to deal with.

 

Now, they *can't* do that.  And we corral then in thier DZ with Skulls and take them apart at our leasure.

 

It's a totally different play style, and another weakness they have picked up.

[Aethernitas]

I guess we won't really get anywhere like this. If you are ready to do a little research on the current "state of daemons" you are welcome to browse several WH40K forums and their daemon and batrep subforums. I guess you will be surprised what you'll find.

 

On the other hand we could just wait and see how the new daemon codex will fare in the near future and the next few tournaments and then pick up the discussion again? Seems like a wise thing to do.

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't agree with everything Stelek posts, but to drop in a non B&C website devoted to 'competitive' play, check out his opinion on the Daemon Codex.

 

I do look at more than just the B&C. ;)

[Aethernitas]

Didn't know Stelek at all but I just read through his last few blogg-posts and comments on daemons. Wow - for me he is one angry, mean and dislikeable fellow. Tim and greasybastard actually bring up some very good points and he brushes over them by beeing extremely offensive and disrespectful.

Your math on the horrors is quite good but for me it just shows that horrors with flickering fire are not meant to hunt MEQs. For that daemons have better options with Khorne, Slaanesh, Heralds, Soulgrinder and MCs. Sadly it's overlooked again how mighty PE armywide is and that it get's better the higher the WS, BS and S stats of an army are as the chance to reroll is always 1 in 6 but the chance for a successful reroll depends on those stats.

When I was talking about research I didn't mean to hang on the lips of one egomaniac who is considered an authority for some obscure reason. I meant to browse many different daemon-related forums and threads to get a feeling for the general view on daemons from people who actually played with or against them. Don't take the word of one full-of-himself individual as an absolute fact. Thats just so wrong