Gentlemanloser Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Nerf rock! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/8/#findComment-3391631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Just stumbled over the #2 list from WGC 2013 and it's not even a flying circus ;) http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/06/40k-wgc2013-unstoppable-lists.html Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/8/#findComment-3392210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Number #4 was though. The reason the dog-spam list worked is he still brought a tonne of scoring to augment it. The list is basically just two dog blobs, the LoC, Plaguebearers and Grinders. Heralds are just there for re-rolls on the charge and challenges. Not surprised the Necron+Ork list smashed it, dogs do pretty much zip to Meganobz or Scythes. If you get rid of the Plaguebearers the list falls apart in objective games. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/8/#findComment-3404420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 My point being that you were straight up wrong when you stated: As a pure list? Not even top 10. With CSM (either as primary), I think they'll place, but they won't win. I told you back then that you stuck your neck out too far by judging the codex by your own subjective standards that early. I think that keeping an open mind is a much more effective way to assess the meta and get a feeling for the overall strenght of a codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/8/#findComment-3404968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 RNG is RNG. Who knows, that list could have rolled nothing but 6's, and his opponents 1's. I think we'll need a larger sample size before proclaiming that the Daemon dex is anything but rubbish. Hopefully a tournament that gets rid of the Rock - Paper - Scissors design of current 40k that most find 'competitive'. Which is something I just cannot understand. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/8/#findComment-3405169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 RNG is RNG. Who knows, that list could have rolled nothing but 6's, and his opponents 1's. I think we'll need a larger sample size before proclaiming that the Daemon dex is anything but rubbish. Hopefully a tournament that gets rid of the Rock - Paper - Scissors design of current 40k that most find 'competitive'. Which is something I just cannot understand. I kinda figured that even tournament results won't be enough to convince some people here. Kudos to you for beeing so steadfast in your personal opinion but let me ask you: What else would be indicative for you that Daemons actually are not only a very decent codex but actually a very strong and competitive one too? I'm also curious what you meant exactly with you last - the rock-paper-scissors design - statement. Would you mind explaining what you meant? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/8/#findComment-3405253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Not a lot really. The basic design of the army list is rubbish. You can still win with it sure, but I've been over the design flaws in it (no shooting phase in a shooting game, no transports, etc) I really don't want to do that again. I would just be very, cautious, to let a single result sway the fundamental design issues this army has. Especially in a Tournament that allows Forgeworld units. My hatred of the balance of Loth, Arcanthrites and Sabre's should be well known as well. ;) Now, if (like SW were doing back at the end of 5th, pre Flamer uber buff) Dameons won every single event that the 40k playerbase hosted, *without* relying on Helldrakes and Cultists, then I'd probably revise my opinion. Maybe. As that would also depend on the opponent, and rules of each tournament. Which is really why I try to avoid subjective conjecture. Objectively, the army has massive design flaws. That makes it a poor army. As for R-P-S, I'm not sure that needs clarification. You bring a Flyer heavy army, the army that lacks Fliers/Flyier defense is *hugely* disadvantaged. (which is also impacted by some armies having very little Flyer/Anti flier options themselves. Hi Space Wolves...). You bring your Flyer heavy army to a three round knock out tournament, and face three opponents who don't have Fliers/Anti Fliers of their own, and you're going to have a disproportionately easy route to victory. You bring a 5 Flying MC army and face three opponents that don't have access to ID and you're have the same. I wouldn't say that 40k only has three prominent 'types', it's not Flyer - Horde - Mech. But it's close. I use R-P-S to represent the trumping nature, and how the inbalance between lists types can effect outcomes just as much, if not more, than random dice rolls. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/8/#findComment-3405263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Not a lot really. The basic design of the army list is rubbish. You can still win with it sure, but I've been over the design flaws in it (no shooting phase in a shooting game, no transports, etc) I really don't want to do that again. No sense in that anyway as I will always see it as a deliberate design decision (pretty much no shooting, no transport) that is balanced by other factors. I know you'll disagree with me on that so let's move on. I would just be very, cautious, to let a single result sway the fundamental design issues this army has. Especially in a Tournament that allows Forgeworld units. My hatred of the balance of Loth, Arcanthrites and Sabre's should be well known as well. You bring a Flyer heavy army, the army that lacks Fliers/Flyier defense is *hugely* disadvantaged. (which is also impacted by some armies having very little Flyer/Anti flier options themselves. Hi Space Wolves...). You bring your Flyer heavy army to a three round knock out tournament, and face three opponents who don't have Fliers/Anti Fliers of their own, and you're going to have a disproportionately easy route to victory. You bring a 5 Flying MC army and face three opponents that don't have access to ID and you're have the same. I wouldn't say that 40k only has three prominent 'types', it's not Flyer - Horde - Mech. But it's close. I use R-P-S to represent the trumping nature, and how the inbalance between lists types can effect outcomes just as much, if not more, than random dice rolls. So how do you explain that between the Top 4 lists of a major tournament only one even kinda qualifies for you R-P-S theory (the Daemon flying-circus'ish list)? Why are there no OMG IMBA FW units in there? The one list that made use of FW units (about 800 points of FW in there) made 3rd place despite making heavy use of Thudd Guns and Sabre platforms. The Necron list even used a good chunk of Orkish awesomeness and not just endless mobs of tarpitting +2. If anything those 4 lists look like very decent TAC lists to me. Now, if (like SW were doing back at the end of 5th, pre Flamer uber buff) Dameons won every single event that the 40k playerbase hosted, *without* relying on Helldrakes and Cultists, then I'd probably revise my opinion. Maybe. As that would also depend on the opponent, and rules of each tournament. So what you are saying is that you would only *maybe* change your opinion if Daemons were broken? Thats so adult. Just FYI there was not a single Helldrake in any of the Daemon-Lists and the only unit both Daemon lists had in common were plaguebearers... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/8/#findComment-3405534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 So how do you explain that between the Top 4 lists of a major tournament only one even kinda qualifies for you R-P-S theory (the Daemon flying-circus'ish list)? Why are there no OMG IMBA FW units in there? The one list that made use of FW units (about 800 points of FW in there) made 3rd place despite making heavy use of Thudd Guns and Sabre platforms. The Necron list even used a good chunk of Orkish awesomeness and not just endless mobs of tarpitting +2. No idea. People don't own the minis? Tournament disallowed those with experimental rules? I don't really care. Those units are undeniably broken. Why people don't use them could be a myriad of reasons. Ask hose players why they didn't, I can't answer for them. So what you are saying is that you would only *maybe* change your opinion if Daemons were broken? Thats so adult. Just FYI there was not a single Helldrake in any of the Daemon-Lists and the only unit both Daemon lists had in common were plaguebearers... Eh? Are you implying that SW were 'broken', as they dominated the tournament scene for the majority of 5th. As for being 'adult', please explain how I'm being childish. My mathematics, knowledge of 40k in general and internal logic inform me that by design, the Daemon army is bad. We'll agree to disagree that this is balanced by other factors. As an adult, I'm willing to change my opinion, I'm not steadfast. I do it all the time, and have no problem being wrong. But it's going to take a lot of evidence to sway my own reasoning. And the results of a single tournament, that I don't personally find to be balanced nor 'competitive' isn't going to do that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/8/#findComment-3405739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Don't bother arguing. I gave up on this thread a while ago man. He's got stars in his eyes about the dog-spam+MC build, thinks it redeems everything else wrong with the army. Suffice to say though, Daemons still didn't take it out. Necrons beat them to it. I was surprised they got so high, I'll admit, but they still didn't win it. As GL has pointed out, if Daemons start pulling consistent tourney wins, then something is going on. For now, a handful of results does not a trend make. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/8/#findComment-3409061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Folks, please refrain from directed comments and stick to the topic at hand, lest I be forced to melta this thread. The thread is already a bit old as it is. <3 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/8/#findComment-3409355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmoor Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Don't bother arguing. I gave up on this thread a while ago man. He's got stars in his eyes about the dog-spam+MC build, thinks it redeems everything else wrong with the army. Suffice to say though, Daemons still didn't take it out. Necrons beat them to it. I was surprised they got so high, I'll admit, but they still didn't win it. As GL has pointed out, if Daemons start pulling consistent tourney wins, then something is going on. For now, a handful of results does not a trend make. First off, Wargames Con is 7 rounds, so if you think they just got lucky in a couple of rounds you are wrong. Second, demons just won a GT event in Los Angeles http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/07/40k-anime-expo-tourney-recap.html And at Adepticon Goatboy was beating everyone and was going through Necon armies without a problem. The only game he lost was to my Paladins in round #5. Demons are a very good army. If you do not know that I don't know that to tell you, You can't make the blind see. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/8/#findComment-3411298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 4, 2013 Share Posted August 4, 2013 My previous reply to this topic got removed. Weird... CBF retyping. Daemons have like two builds that work, and even then they fall apart in certain matchups. Daemons are a terrible codex with terrible internal balance, random effects that hinder more than help, and a mis-match between their MC's and infantry choices (ie MC's are better in every measurable way, if people could take scoring Princes in the same way that Nids can bring Troop Tervigons, you wouldn't even see Plaguebearers in a Daemon list). Mods, if you're still bothering to read this topic, I suggest you archive it. We're going in circles here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/8/#findComment-3412004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 A lot of posts went when the B&C had equipment Failure. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/8/#findComment-3427933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Yeah, kinda annoying. I wrote my usual short essay response, and then it all went into the warp :( ah well, better luck next time Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271991-daemons-a-shift-in-the-gk-paradigm/page/8/#findComment-3428495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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