Saint Celestine and Chaos Boons

[W0lfie]

Hey B&C,

 

Reading the SoB FAQ, I read that killing Celestine doesn't give you Slay the Warlord, First Blood or Killpoints unless she is dead at the end of the game.  How does this work with Chaos Boons? Say a sergeant/lord or whatever kills her in a challenge, does he not get to roll boons at all? Does he roll them, and then they are simply undone if she returns to play?  

 

Thoughts?

[Sabathiel]

Technically you still haven't killed her, thus you won't roll on the boon.

[AllistorPreist]

The sisters' rule is pretty clear, Celestine is removed as a casualty and exceptions were called out specifically. I haven't read the Chaos rule (at $50 each, buying codexes just to read is now off the table) but if it is something that applies from killing vs her staying dead, I would rule towards chaos on this one.

[Spacefrisian]

When a champ of chaos beats her she is dead at that moment and that champ roles on the chaos table, its afterwards that Celestine revives and gets back up. At least that is how i think it should be played.

[Guest Vortex]

The way I'm reading it, you'd roll for a boon each time Celestine is removed as a casualty, even if she revives later (in which case you'd still keep the boon). Just seems the most practical solution to me. I can't really imagine having to wait until the battle is over to see whether or not Celestine is on the board... and only then rolling for a boon if she did indeed stay dead.

[Fibonacci]

In the Champion of Chaos rules, there are a few phrases like "Immediatly check" and "lasts for the rest of the game."

Celestine's maraculous intervention rule from codex and FAQ mention kill points and mission objectives only.  Every time she is killed, you roll.  You may also increase the tally of pestalance with each death but that may change in the very near future.

 

When Celestine stands up, you lose first blood, slay the warlord, any victory points, she clears any lingering effects - things like squig, concussed, maldictions AND blessings - but pain tokens, boon rolls, tally points and anything else like that continue to work.

[Rommel44]

In her case, when she dies no one counts her as officially dead until the end of the game, and this is how my store has played it with no to very few complaints. If she is still on the board, then the opposing player doesn't get any points for slaying her or any boons and such, as she is not officially dead at the time. This is what makes her so worth taking, as she does a lot for a SOB army and just annoys opponents like no other, which only a few characters can pull off. One of the few bright spots of the SOB army.

[derpasaurus]

It doesn't say you refund the points if she stands up, tho. It says she "only counts" as those points if she's dead at the end of the last turn.
Still, the way Champions of Chaos reads, "Whenever a character with the Champion of Chaos special rule kills an enemy character, you must immediately check to see if the Dark Gods reward him." tells me that as soon as combat is resolved and Celestine is defeated, you roll on the boon table. And you would for each time she falls, too. 
Champion of Chaos makes no mention of characters returning to play, (I think Yarrick can, as well, for example) so you just keep on rollin'.

[Fibonacci]

In her case, when she dies no one counts her as officially dead until the end of the game, and this is how my store has played it with no to very few complaints. If she is still on the board, then the opposing player doesn't get any points for slaying her or any boons and such, as she is not officially dead at the time. This is what makes her so worth taking, as she does a lot for a SOB army and just annoys opponents like no other, which only a few characters can pull off. One of the few bright spots of the SOB army.

I bolded the part that is the highest priority.  How you and your friends agree to play it is the most important thing.  For us it makes sense that when she is removed as a casualty, the unit that removed her gets the benifit if one exists.  So does "removed as a casualty" mean the same thing as "kill?"  At my LGS, removed, killed, defeated, and all those words in the different rules all mean the same thing.  To us, the CSM boon rools are just an extension to how we have agreed to use pain tokens.  Other place may play differently.  That's fine and all, just be consistant and it wont matter.

 

Of course I will argue that she gives a boon roll every time she is removed.  But I wont argue all that hard.  It is easier to invoke the Most Important Rule, dice off and move on. 

[derpasaurus]

I agree that as long as you agree and are consistent is all that matters, in the long run. It would probably only really matter in a tourney setting anyway.

[*Furyou Miko]

No, it'd matter in a campaign setting - tournaments tend not to carry over stuff like Boons from one game to the next.

 

I'd be fine with you claiming a Boon for every time you kill Celestine. Just makes you all the more likely to get spawned or princed, at which point she can carve you apart with impunity. :p

 

Rommel44 - stop being so damn negative, the WD codex is plenty powerful enough. Did you know that the rest of this board somehow thinks it's difficult to get meltaguns into range effectively?

[derpasaurus]

Wow. I play tested a 6 strong dominion squad in a MM immolator last weekend and absolutely CRUSHED a guard army. 
then I did 1k against Tau and handily bashed them, too. (it was a much closer game by model count but I had more points by the end)
While it would be nice to have a sexy new book on my shelf and maybe some new units to pick from, our dex is plenty awesome as is. lol

[W0lfie]

@Derpasaurus

 

From Wikipedia (disambiguation for "killing")

Causing the death of a living organism

From Wikipedia (page for "Death")

Death is the permanent cessation of all biological functions that sustain a living organism

 

This may be reading pretty deeply into it, but the champion of Chaos does not "kill" her, because there is no permanent disruption of functions in Celestine.

[Rayray]

I think going to Wikipedia for some GW word interpretation may be ever so slightly out of context. LMAO. If it is that big of a deal, I as the chaos player simply wouldn't roll.

[Hanska]

Almost sayd what Rayray said.

I just hope that whole wiki-thing was a joke.

 

For the topic: I'm all for fair play. Give the heretics their boons-or-what-not

 

Boons just make them burn more bright in absolution...

[derpasaurus]

@Derpasaurus

 

From Wikipedia (disambiguation for "killing")

Causing the death of a living organism

From Wikipedia (page for "Death")

Death is the permanent cessation of all biological functions that sustain a living organism

 

This may be reading pretty deeply into it, but the champion of Chaos does not "kill" her, because there is no permanent disruption of functions in Celestine.

WE NEED TO GO DEEPER.

 

But seriously. lol

 

I take the wording to mean "If the Champion wins the challenge and isn't simultaneously killed."

Because by the very same logic a Daemon will never truly die. However, if my warlord kills a Herald in combat and the Daemon just goes back to the warp, I get to roll on the boon table. 

[Fibonacci]

@Derpasaurus

From Wikipedia (disambiguation for "killing")

Causing the death of a living organism

From Wikipedia (page for "Death")

Death is the permanent cessation of all biological functions that sustain a living organism

This may be reading pretty deeply into it, but the champion of Chaos does not "kill" her, because there is no permanent disruption of functions in Celestine.

WE NEED TO GO DEEPER.

But seriously. lol

I take the wording to mean "If the Champion wins the challenge and isn't simultaneously killed."

Because by the very same logic a Daemon will never truly die. However, if my warlord kills a Herald in combat and the Daemon just goes back to the warp, I get to roll on the boon table.

Being little more tham a lump of plastic and metal, no model is actually alive so they can not be killed. But that's taking things way past absurdity.

[thade]

The topic of death and dying in 40K is a weird one indeed.

Demons don't truly die, they're banished. I think the lesser ones can be destroyed (and maybe that's "dying" in a way) but most of them just get shoved back into the warp.

Celestine doesn't truly die...but then again, most of your models don't either. When a Sister fails an armor save, she's taken "Casualty" per the rules, and Casualty does not mean Dead. It means unable to continue fighting, so wounded or hurt or out of ammo or whatever. I mean, in 40k it might mean "Her arm got vaporized by a stray melta shot," but in 40k that's not End Game...they can stick some cybernetics on there and she'll be fit for duty and just as angry as ever a Sister could be.

It's also not entirely clear to me that Celestine is actually alive. A topic for another time, though. <3

[W0lfie]

For the record, yes, the wikipedia thing was a joke!

 

The way we have taken to playing it at my local club is that the first time she is knocked down, a chaos boon is achieved.  After that though, nothing happens (the Chaos Gods do not repeat their mistake!)

 

Before we came to that solution, we actually went with boons being undone when she stands up, with spawns and princes attained through a temp role being removed entirely when it's undone (the chaos gods don't like being toyed with, after all).  We decided to stop using this system after Celestine killed a Chaos Lord with the Axe of Blind fury, a juggernaut of khorne, sigil of corruption and a plasma pistol by him getting rewarded for killing her.

[Inquisitor Fox]

The way I see it, when Celestine is reduced to 0 wounds she is "killed" for purposes of that rule.  She is then, according to her rules, removed from the table and a marker placed where she died.  This backs up the fact the other player gets to roll as she was reduced to 0 wounds and removed from the table.  Now you get to roll to see if she comes back with d3 wounds restored.  The fact she does come back doesn't change the fact she was previously reduced to zero wounds and removed from the table as a casualty.

 

Because she is removed from the table as a casualty, it seems that the Chaos player does get to roll.  For all we know it's a clone Saint Ceelestine that comes back, then if she dies we might be dealing with Saint Ceeelistine on the third go round ;)

 

In truth, I'm with Thade.  I'd rather take the hit, and just get a chance to play a game.  Better to be the good sport that has fun and makes for a fun experience, rather than the cut throat that no one likes.