Iron Warriors Question

[Maj Tom]

I was flipping through my Chaos Space Marince Codex the other day and just happened to flip over to the entry for Fabius Bile. I noted his enhanced warriors rule would be good to represent a unit of significantly modified bionically augmented Iron Warriors. I immediatly thought of all the possibilities for conversion. Then I thought to take it a step forward.

 

I was considering giving the enhanced warriors CSM squad a mark and its corresponding banner to represent a core of cyborg marines that would be the type to storm the breach after a mob of cultists goes in. Of course this would be after a huge bombardment of ordinance. I wanted to field them at 20 man strength for larger games and scale it down for smaller.

 

My dilemma is 2 fold. My first question is simple. If I were to field these heavily cybernetic IW in a tournament and have them with a mark that isn't obvious would that be a problem? Or would I just tell them these guys are cyborg space marines?

 

The second is which mark would best represent these cyborg Chaos Marines?

 

My leading contender is MoN because of the +1 T and the banner that gives fear because what is scarier than stronger, tougher space marines?

 

Second would be MoS for the improved initiative and FNP. This would represent a bionic increase to speed and resistance to damage, useful for crossing no man's land.

 

Third would be Khorne. Angry cyborgs makes since, perhaps they just want to kill now that they are just a fiew pieces of meat held together by bionics?

 

The bottom of the list is Tzeench, while the least likely it can still be explained. The invulnerable save is clearly weapons fire just bouncing off their adamantium hides and they are give special ammo to burn out those that would hide in the rubble.

 

I can think of a fluffy reason to field all of these marks to some degree, but I am leading toward MoN and their banner of despair  but MoS is really tempting  Khorne and Tzeench are kind of distant 3rd and 4th but I haven't quite ruled them out. So what do you think?

[Ethrion]

To answer your second question I would say go with the mark of Nurgle. A +1 to toughness makes sense of cyborg augmented troops. They are harder to slow down/wound because of all the metal but ultimately can still be brought down.

They *might* be made faster by bionics but from what I've read of the Iron Warriors they just become more "clockwork" and ploddy rather than speedy. I cant remember which character from the books it was now but one of them had a mechanical leg and it just sort of slowed him up a bit.

 

I don't think and extra save like FnP or a special save like an invulnerable would fit the fluff as well.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

You're thinking of Forrix in Storm of Iron my friend :)

 

Go for the MoN, +1 T is always good

[Iron_Within]

Go for Nurgle or for Plague Marines. Or both, showing increasing bionics to the point they are more machine than man.

 

You could use Robot conversions for Rubric Marines. Iron Warriors are not really devout at all to the chaos gods. The most likely ones they fall to though is Khorne and Nurgle. Two ends of the scale really, Khorne; start to enjoy the point of storming the breach a bit too much as it's there only release in otherwise bleak lives. Nurgle because they are miserable paranoid gits at the best of times and then they fight in the most brutal form of warfare in the history as the norm. Complete nihilism and despair leads straight to Nurgle.

[Nehekhare]

IW background sports strong connections to both khorne (kroeger, heart of blood, berzerkers in the IA list) and nurgle (perturabo's plague, obliterator virus, planet of iron).

[Maj Tom]

Thanks for the responses! I think I might save the points and just cut out Fabious. Plague Marines seem to be the closest to what I was looking for, I think I can give up the +1 strength since they do just about the same thing on their own and then some.

 

My next question is do you think people at tournaments would mind me using these obviously cyborg CSMs for Plague Marines? I want them to stand out enough to where it would be hard to confuse them with any of the other Marines in my force.

[happybounce]

So long as you make sure your opponent knows what the proxies are, and so long as they are consistent, they can't fault you for it or have you remove them.  GW is really clear about that stuff--wouldn't be much fun to model and convert if every time we went to a tourney you couldn't use the models!  

 

Just make sure that if you run a different set of Chaos Marines, there is enough of a difference for them to tell them apart.  Otherwise, you can go crazy.  The idea of Nurgle representing Iron Warriors and them being famously resilient does make a lot of sense; for the plague swords, you can always say they are coated in bio-acid, or sharpened to a mono-filament.

 

Of course the obvious answer to "how do I make them the best?" is to say they have frenzon and go all Khorne ; )

 

Honestly though I like Fabius Bile a lot, and you get almost as much mileage out of MoN chaos marines as you do Plauge Marines.  Go with your heart!  Or, you know, whichever you like the most.

[Warsmith Aznable]

You could take the Chaos symbols from a Chaos Vehicle sprue, glue them to bases, and paint them. Then, whenever you have a unit you want to give a Mark to that wouldn't be immediately obvious from modeling, place your new Mark of Chaos token next to them on the table.

[chillin]

fluffwize u could justify any of the marks w bionics, implants, better armor, force fields etc. As far as what to take if u were to take fabulous bill, MoN giving you str 5 / T 5 would be prettty brutal. MoK wld b pretty good , str 5 w rage and counter attack. I've tried slanny a few times, and the +1 int really didnt make the difference I thought it would, granted I didnt have str 5 to go w the int 5. MoT is right out, inv save of 6 really isnt worth much.

I also agree that you could do just fine w out fabulous bill, he's not and has never been a popular SC choice.

The best represent of bionic or cyborg csm's would be MoN or PM's IMO. IW's can use brzrkrs anyway, they have them in a couple of BL books and used to be able to take them in C:csm 3.5 when we had legion rules (sigh ). Dont take the nurgle banner tho, its not worth much, ur probably not going to be playing many armys that would be failing many fear test. If you model them up to look all cyborgified, you should hav no problem using them in tourneys. Necromunda figs used to hav great bits to use as bionics, but I bet those are VERY hard to find now. I think some ppl use necron bits and whatever else. To model my non-PM PM's for my BL army, I gave them all the xtra high shoulder guards w the neck/face protecting ridge and "storm" shields from old WHFB chaos warriors. every time I pull them out ppl like them (oh, I tell my opponent right off the bat , that they represent PM's of course). So as long as u model them up different, and tell your opponent what they are u shouldnt have a problem.

[Maj Tom]

One more question, if you all will entertain it. Should I arm my 35 man blob of cultists with CCW and autopistols? Or autoguns? I know the flamers are a must.

 

Either way you guys have been a big help in my decent to madness that is Chaos. I want to thank you all for your feed back it has all be helpful! The 31st Grand Company thanks you as we gather our strength to continue the Long War.

[chillin]

I dont kmow that it matters what u give them, like u said they are just a blob, an objective holder (unless someone takes it from them). I guess a better , more helpful, answer would be, it depends on how u want to use them. If u want to have them stay back and try and hold a home objective or man an aegis defence line then give them auto rifles and hvy stubbers. if u want to send them forward and try to contest an objective or  ur opponent deal with something else then give them pistols & ccw's and flamers. Since GW got rid of that retarded wysiwyg rule, just model some up each way, that way u can change them up in different games if u want.

[happybounce]

Since GW got rid of that retarded wysiwyg rule, just model some up each way, that way u can change them up in different games if u want.

Wait.  What you see is what you get is "retarded"?  I don't think that requiring people playing a hobby game to have their models showing mostly correct wargear is unreasonable.  

 

@Maj, mixing some non-specific equimpent in the unit is fine, but don't go 50/50 then expect you can just switch whenever it suits your needs--it'll get confusing (for you and your friends!) and could get you in trouble if you go to a tournament.

 

Other than that I agree with chillin; identifying what role they will have in the army will help you use them.  As you are playing Iron Warriors, maybe put em with autoguns?  I wouldn't use the unit to just hide and claim an objective, like a lot of Chaos players do--you want to make sure everything you are running has a purpose, and you are using them to their best ability each turn.  Of course, if you drop the auto guns and a few guys you could give the cultists a mark--I played against a Nurgle list that ran a lot of Nurgle-marked cultists a while back and they were kind of a pain.

[zyl-]

I think the two best uses of cultists I've seen thus far is either zombies or a 35 man khorn blob (even better with Kahrn in the middle).

[Dar'kir]

I agree with happybounce, model them one way of the other as to avoid any issuses with your oppenents. As for marks, the MoN is the most useful IMO, and the easiest to explain with bionics.

[Maj Tom]

Thanks a lot guys! You're input has been really helpful! Look out for the pics in the not too distant future.

[chillin]

yes that is my opinion, and I guess not only mine since it is no longer a rule. Requiring him to buy, model and paint 60 cultist, 30 w bp & ccw and 30 w auto guns so he couyld change how he used them from battle to battle is a waste of his time and $. Cultist would be an unrulely mob fighting w whatever they could get there hands on. If he, before the game pointed to his blob of mixed weapon cultist and told me "these guys all have autoguns" I would have no issue w it, (yeah , model the stubber or flamers or whatever so I can see where they are in the unit, but other then that ...) . If some one had a squad of csm's some w only bolters and some w only bp & ccw's and told me before the game " this csm's all have bolters and bp & ccw's" I would have no problem w it. I think requiring ppl to model bp & ccw csm's w removable bolters that could be slung across their backs is retarded . if someone had an issue w that, I guess that would be their issue. If u guys do have a prob w that kind of stuff, I hope u are kool to your opponents who dont want to / cant spend all their time and $ modeling every little thing or buying doubles of everything so he can arm them in different ways in different games.

[happybounce]

WYSIWYG was never about making it so you had to model a bolt pistol and krak grenades on every single marine.  Rules that restrictive diminish the game, and forcing everyone to buy extra copies of models just so they can try different stuff would dry up the customer base pretty quickly.  But a lack of similar rules is also bad for the game.  If most of the models don't have the right weapons, why not just use different models?  Hell why use models at all?  Look, I have a Chaos army, but most of the dudes are made of Legos!  Making it so that you need to have something that grants a special rule modeled not only makes the game less confusing for others, it's what MAKES the game.  

 

And of course we're not talking about super casual games, or trying stuff out for fun, or proxies--WYSIWYG was designed from a tournament standpoint to ensure a small amount of standardization in a very complex and creative wargame.  It was always pretty clear that you didn't need EVERY dude modeled with EVERY upgrade.  I get what you're saying, but that's not what I'm arguing.  And maybe I'm too sensitive about WYSIWYG.  Maybe I've seen too many people running milk jugs as Monoliths, or deciding to let me know half way through a game that their 30-strong squads of gaunts didn't actually have THOSE upgrades, sorry bout that, they were modeled before the new book, etc.

 

Maj, if you're thinking about Cultists but don't want 60 of two different types, consider getting 20 of each.  That way if you run one squad, you can have 20 of one upgrade type and 10 of another, and you've only got to get 10 extra models.  It won't be confusing as the majority of the models will have the weapons they are upgraded with, it'll add a nice variety to the unit (very Chaos, chillin is right about that) and won't break the bank.

[chronosvulcan597]

I have to agree with if the Iron Warriors have minor bionics, use just the mark of nurgle.  If you make the marines like have two arms, half a torso,  a leg and arm, ect, lots of bionics, the Plague marines work better I think.  The plague marine version would more likely be the elite Iron Warriors that are not Terminators or chosen I think. 

 

The plague blades I think could be enhanced blades with circuitry along them that triggers the nerve and pain reaction when they strike. 

 

As for the cultist, Iron Warriors would more likely give them autoguns.  If they just charged out of the factory/forge, they might just have an autopistol and some wrench or something they grabbed on the way out.  I really think of Iron Warrior cultist as factory/forge workers.