Brother Landrain Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I would like to start a Discussion of what seems to work best for DA in 6th edition tournaments at various point levels. 1850 seems to be the most common point level category. So I am starting there. Also, there are really three subsets of play; with/without Allies. with/without Fortifications, with/without Forgeworld. I am not looking for detailed lists, but a discussion of what people are playing as well as tactics and strategies that are working best. This discussion is to hopefully help all DA Tournament players get better and stronger. With the hopes of seeing the First Legion show strong at Major Tournaments... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 From my own experiences playing at 2k last week, Mortis Contemptor Dreadnaughts are almost default choices for what they offer along with Devastators packing at least 2 lascannons. ADLs were also effective when I came up against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelVeto Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 With the flyer meta I think it should be stated that almost any tournament list should have at least some form of anti flyer, mortis pattern, contemptor mortis pattern and to a lesser degree flyers themselves. My team of the neph with amb and TLLC mortis has given most other lists with single flyers pause, as the mortis can destroy their flyer, but the amb provides serious ground support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphilo Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 While I agree you should have anti-flyer in your list, it's just not feasible sometimes. Lets face it, our AA in our Codex is kind of lacking. So we have to rely on Forge World rules. Yes there is a growing number of tournaments allowing Forge World to be used, which is great. But not all are. So in the respect of non-Forge World tournaments this is how I handle flyers; all or nothing. Either you dominate the skies or you give it up. If you give it up and you're going against a flying spam list you have the advantage, since they will have minimal boots on the ground. Hopefully you can take them out before their air shows up. I think this is a great use of DWA. You DWA all your stuff right in their faces and since they don't have much on the board you can easily handle it. If you're really lucky you manage to wipe their board and win the game before their flyers come on. Now that is not very likely, but it can happen :) I don't have much experience with the dominate the skies version, since I don't use FW that much and like I said earlier our flyers are meh. But if you can use FW, you HAVE to bring the Contemptor-Mortis with Kheres Pattern Assault Cannon. Bring two of them. You move them to the mid board and light up the skies. Other than that I would look at other FW stuff. I've seen a few tournament lists having the Space Marine Air Defence Launcher, but I haven't really looked at their rules. As to general strategy I'm toying with a Deathwing list currently. The only thing that isn't Deathwing is the 6 man Ravenwing Black Knights that really help support the Terminators. They handle the heavy infantry with their Plasma Talons and can help mop up an assault. Also teleport homers is great as well. It has a 10 man Terminator unit designed for shooting, so I stick a lvl 2 Librarian in there for prescience and another psychic power. Belial is going with a unit of 5 Deathwing Knights. The point of this unit is to just deep strike them in the back field and cause havoc. While the 10 man Deep Strikes in front of my opponent. That leaves 2 5 man units with plasma cannons to huff it up the board. Hopefully they help the Ravenwing Black Knights take out some heavy infantry/light vehicles with it plasma. This list doesn't have any AA. But since I can't get FW items for this tournament I've accepted that. This list needs a lot more practice games to flesh it out. But so far I'm liking it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polythemus Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 This is topic ive been thinking about too, glad you started it. I think we need to define what a list is competitive against. To me this means you can win against lists that are tournament winners. When someone on here says, i won all my games yesterday, this doesnt tell us much. You need to know the quality of the opposition. Examples include Necrons triple nightscythe, and 2x6 wraiths. Tyranids triple tervigon, double flyrant, with zoanthropes. Grey knights with double storm raven. Triple helldrakes. The dreaded triple helldrake double scythe combolist. Ork boy list with 150 boyz and dakka jets. Demons with flamer/screamer spam plus demon prince. Deldar with seer coucil and beastpack. Guard plus anyone. The only list here that doesnt rely on flyers is the deldar and demons, otherwise your gonna face flyers. you really need to be able to counter these types of threats if you are building your list. Now maybe that means your alpha strike is so strong that the enemy cant survive it and loses before flyers come on the board but this is tough to do. For my money this rules out deathwing. Deathwing as indigojack and i kind of predicted is out as a monobuild. Its too reliant on armor saves, doesnt do great vs mech before assault, and isnt mobile enough. Your best bet is going to be a mixed wing approach. Now when it comes to air defense bryan blaire made a great post about codex pure vs nonpure options that are worth considering. Now lets assume your TO is a geemer and hates dark angels and forge world. What is your flyer approach going to be? The best codex pure option i have come up with is this combonation Demi tact with flak ML on quad gun Dread with TLLC and TLAC (the double TLLC isnt codex pure) Nephillim This gives you the chance to take down two av 11 flyers per turn, and to kill one av 12 and glance a few more times. It comes to 515 for this combonation and gives you some degree of protection. Triple hell drakes and triple vendettas are the problem here because if you only had to plan for av 11 the nephillim is pretty good, but av 12 ruins its day. As triple drakes come in at 510 and triple dettas come in at 390 its going to be hard to compete. There are no really great solutions other than the nonpure variety, eg gaurd allies and FW. Really the best i think we are gonna do is gunline marines with some ravenwing and maybe DWK to taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmaarrkk Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I have a 1750 tourny this weekend and have done a list I hope will do ok Libby with power field gen pa command squad with salvo banner 10 tac marines, melta gun melta bombs 10 tac marines melta gun melta bombs 10 tac marines melta gun plasma cannon melta bombs 3 hyperios 3 hyperios land raider crusader with pintle multi metla and dozer blade land raider crusader with pintle multi metla and dozer blade land raider crusader with pintle multi metla and dozer blade So I have 3 10 man scoring units, 6 if I combat squad, plus 3 more for big guns and 2 more for scourging, the FA and HS are pretty hard to kill as well. Relic, well the relic can go into a land raider and slowly move away.... objective missins, depending on the amount of objectives I would like to go second, why? so then I can park the LR on the objective and jump out turn 5 and hope it ends. For kill points I have 10 kill points, but the 2 squads of hyperios are quite hard to kill (except against DE poision or something!) the LR's are hard to kill espically with a 4 plus invul and you cant get to the troops until you kill off the land raiders Libby goes with command squad in one LR and gives off a 4 plus invul save and the salvo banner to the other LR's, two tac squads can combat squad and still get in the same LR, other tac squad sits back or combat squads and one goes in reserve depending on the mission. Hyperios are anti light tank and anti air, anti heavy armour will have to be the mutli meltas. This laughs at helldrake spam but will be a issue if they have a few oblits to back them up though!, nightscyches go down quite easy to the hyperios and I have enough shots to take out 6 wraiths a turn I reckon Demons will hurt, but will console myself its the last time they will do for a while..... but at least my juciy troops will be bubble wrapped Orks, still below, i have plently of dakka to trade with them Eldar, DE, I played a very good eldar player the other day with a slightly different list, (4 lr's, 20 scouts!!) and he only won on a secondary, first blood, forgot no one had it yet and wasted a squad of scouts, at the end of the game he had farseer x2 left (1 on 1 wound 1 on 2 wounds) and a warlock and that was it, I had 3 land raiders, DW command squad libby and 5 scouts left, best I have ever done against him, he was running 2 jet seer councils, one with baron in as well, plus 3 fire prisms (think it was list tailored abit!!) in a perfect setting theres 124 normal bolter shots, 72 twin linked bolter shots, 3 melta guns, 3 mutli meltas, 1 plasma cannon, 12 TL assault cannon shots, 6 TL krak missile and a force axe and 3 melta bombs!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I really dont see C:DA producing anything on par with those tier 1 lists mentioned above, although tournament rules and scenarios obviously effect the viability of each strategy. Deathwing is really no more competitive than it was before. Great against certain specific armies but not against the field. DW units will likely be relegated to a support role at best. I think DW is pretty much out of this discussion, if strictly speaking from the highest levels of competitive play. Pure Ravenwing otoh could be a serious contender, if not for the existence of dragons. RW doesnt care much about most other flyers due to T5 and jink but baleflamers wreck the entire strategy. Of the 3, Mixedwing seems the most viable, possibly from an infantry heavy approach similar to early 6th edition space wolves, but also with mech. The infantry build is probably done better by wolves or even other codices so lets look at the other. The first I would suggest is one I built early into the release of C:DA, mostly as a joke, similar to the list posted above.This build is DW crusaders + SoD + PFGs. Its mobile, denies VPs/FB like a champ and laughs off flyers and in fact pretty much all damage barring massive melta spam and gauss. The downside is it relies heavily on the emphasis each tournament puts on secondary wincons over objectives. Heres an example of this type of list: DARK ANGELS CRUSADES.. HQ librarian, tda, axe/sb, pfg- 125 (psychic shriek) librarian, tda, axe/sb, pfg- 125 (psychic shriek) techmarine, pfg, mb's- 85 5 deathwing cmd, std of devastation, 5 th/ss- 310 (techmarine) TROOPS 10 tactical marines mg, mm, mb's- 165 (libby) 10 tactical marines mg, mb's- 155 (libby) HS deathwing crusader, mm, dozerblade- 295 deathwing crusader, mm, dozerblade- 295 deathwing crusader, mm, dozerblade- 295 TOTAL- 1850 Each LRC is independent although obviously better while in range of the SoD. The contents are all fearless (the tacs too if the libby disembarks with them). th/ss over other options in case the TM goes down and because durability trumps stormbolters here. Gauss and melta would be the main and even only concerns although it takes roughly 73 gauss shots to wither a single LRC or 21 melta shots... The other option that may warrant pursuing IMO would probably start with azrael inside 5 tacs/devs on an ADL icarus, PFG libbys/techys in black knight units, mortis las contemptors, and likely include the std of dakka. Havent theory hammered that one yet but id enjoy the exercise on either if someone would like to indulge. Edit- I should add this is from the viewpoint of pure DAs, not allies. Also this editor always messes with my posts!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 Ok and now just a little more food for thought taking forgeword and fortifications into consideration.. The previous concept attempts to completely ignore flyers. However iIf we do decide we want to deal with flyers we might as well try to dominate the air space. Say something like this as the core of this type of approach: Azrael 3 x mortis contemptors, 2 TL las, CML (skyfire & intercept) 5 devastators, 3 MLs, flakks (alternately tacs could replace these) Aegis DL- icarus (manned by azrael + devs) This shell comes to 1105 pts, which isnt cheap but it brings no less than 4 intercepting units with 16 S7-9 shots. Crons will cry. Dragons will too. From here 745 pts buys anything scoring from deathwing to ravenwing to greenwing. Command squads are probably out due to cost but plasma tac squads sound like a good starting point. Thoughts on either concept? Also keep in mind that daemons rotate tomorrow so theres a decent chance that those broken ass flamer/screamer spam lists are nerfed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmaarrkk Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Contempators only gain skyfire interceptor for their turn, you cant use them to interceptor during the opponents turn on units coming in from reserves sadly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Hmm... Well, it really depends... I like the idea of being able to focus 100% of your points in one time and place to destroy the critical element in an enemy's list. Toward that end, my default 1850 tourney list consists of two crusaders, one with eight knights, the other with belial and an assaulty squad, plus two tactical terminator squads. With only two models on the board, and those AV14 venerable, 90% of the enemy's force is sitting there with its thumb up its collective butt while a couple of melta-equipped units (that you should try to sideline by deploying second, and away from them, to the extent possible) try to stop your two tanks (and they will be popping smoke on turn one) before your turn 2 DWA. Then it's four hurri-bolters, eight stormbolters, and four ass cannons, all twinlinked, followed by fourteen charging terminators. But there's a lot of neat stuff in the list. Ravenwing got boosted to the stratosphere. Lascannon devastators are a no-brainer in any green list. Zeke's the #$%& man. Whirlwinds were great before, now they're great AND cheap. four lascannon devs plus a pair of WWs is a fantastic start to a list. To be honest, we have an embarrassment of riches in every FOC slot except elites. Not that we don't have good elites, it's just that there's less competition there. Tactical squads and scouts are kinda "meh," so you'll want to unlock bikes or termies, or both, as troops. But fast attack, heavy, and (assuming bikes or termies) troops, as well as named HQ choices...too many excellent options, not enough points to spend on them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polythemus Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Contempators only gain skyfire interceptor for their turn, you cant use them to interceptor during the opponents turn on units coming in from reserves sadly ah you may want to reread the section on interceptor. if a dread doesnt move it gains interceptor/skyfire. ergo if you did dont move and then your opponent goes you can intercept anything that comes in, so long as its in line of sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlauG Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Our Elites would be a harder competition if we couldn't take Deathwing as Troops. ;) My own suggestion for pure Ravenwing is run two large blobs with PFG Techmarines. Pricy, but since Tau and Baleflamers will be your main concern it might well be worth it. Plus, for laughs, you can stick a squad of Servitors with heavy weapons in cover somewhere fairly cheap and hope they don't mindlock. Also, if you run the Standard of Fortitude, the Baleflamer won't deny your FNP. I'm not sure I will ever bother with another tournament after my experiences in 5E (I have a horrible habit of destroying my first two opponents then getting crushed into a very mediocre ranking by the guy who goes on to win overall!) but my local meta occasionally sees some horrible beardy lists for pickup games so having something solid to oppose them with is a viable concern for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted March 3, 2013 Author Share Posted March 3, 2013 Here is what I am thinking of Starting out with are a core... Command Squad + Banner of Destruction 10 Man Tactical with ML+flakk 10 Man Tactical with ML+flakk 5 Man Scout, 4xSnipers with ML+flakk 5 Man Devastator with 2x ML+flakk + 2xLC 5 Man Devastator with 2x ML+flakk + 2xLC That clocks in at 905pts, with 7 flak and 4 lascannon, able to target 5 different targets as needed. As well as having Salvo fire for the 23 bolters. Most likely Putting them into a fortification. Thoughts as a base? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polythemus Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 if you can put two groups of devs on top of a bastion i would suggest that. you could also just take the ADL with icarus and have one of the flak missle guys shooting it, which is probably better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Here is what I am thinking of Starting out with are a core... Command Squad + Banner of Destruction 10 Man Tactical with ML+flakk 10 Man Tactical with ML+flakk 5 Man Scout, 4xSnipers with ML+flakk 5 Man Devastator with 2x ML+flakk + 2xLC 5 Man Devastator with 2x ML+flakk + 2xLC That clocks in at 905pts, with 7 flak and 4 lascannon, able to target 5 different targets as needed. As well as having Salvo fire for the 23 bolters. Most likely Putting them into a fortification. Thoughts as a base? Why the hell would you want seven flakk missile launchers in your list? Is your only opponent a valkyrie spam player??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlauG Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Don't forget Scythes. This is designed for beardy Tournament armies, presumably! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Meh...if you design your list to take on flier spam, you'll end up not facing any fliers. Fliers are expensive and non-scoring. The more your opponent takes (with the exception of scythes and vendettas), the less stuff he has that matters. Sell out to air defense, and you're screwed when you face deathroller spam, drop pod spam, nine pieplates, or 200 guardsmen instead. Besides, the list in question is NOT tournament-hard. It's a mediocre list for casual play...with max flak missiles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Contempators only gain skyfire interceptor for their turn, you cant use them to interceptor during the opponents turn on units coming in from reserves sadly ah you may want to reread the section on interceptor. if a dread doesnt move it gains interceptor/skyfire. ergo if you did dont move and then your opponent goes you can intercept anything that comes in, so long as its in line of sight. Polythemus, you might want to re-read the Imperial Armour 6th ed update. The stationary mortis dreadnoughts gain skyfire and interceptor for that turn. As per the rulebook, "turn" = player turn not game turn. By the time your opponent's movement phase comes round the dreadnought no longer has the skyfire and interceptor rules. :( I've been meaning to canvas opinions in the Offical Rules sub-forum for a while now but I'm quite lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polythemus Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Contempators only gain skyfire interceptor for their turn, you cant use them to interceptor during the opponents turn on units coming in from reserves sadly ah you may want to reread the section on interceptor. if a dread doesnt move it gains interceptor/skyfire. ergo if you did dont move and then your opponent goes you can intercept anything that comes in, so long as its in line of sight. Polythemus, you might want to re-read the Imperial Armour 6th ed update. The stationary mortis dreadnoughts gain skyfire and interceptor for that turn. As per the rulebook, "turn" = player turn not game turn. By the time your opponent's movement phase comes round the dreadnought no longer has the skyfire and interceptor rules. :( I've been meaning to canvas opinions in the Offical Rules sub-forum for a while now but I'm quite lazy. You sir are incredibly right, i am incredibly wrong, and that is incredibly lame. My apologies mark. That is kind of a glaring oversight on FWs part. Having interceptor makes 0 amount of sense if that is the case. I suppose now i understand how people with flamers feel, realizing your model just lost a rule that helped make it great isnt fun. Well at least now theres no reason not to move a contemptor unless the flyer in question is already on the table. Thanks for setting me straight Cactus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlauG Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Unless the most recent IA Book phrases it differently, the PDF version of the IA 6th Ed Update just states "When stationary gains the Skyfire and Interceptor special rule". Since it doesn't specify turns, and is stationary until your next movement phase, surely it has both rules in your opponent's Movement Phase still? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGumbo Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Unless the most recent IA Book phrases it differently, the PDF version of the IA 6th Ed Update just states "When stationary gains the Skyfire and Interceptor special rule". Since it doesn't specify turns, and is stationary until your next movement phase, surely it has both rules in your opponent's Movement Phase still? IA Aeronautica has it "for that turn". When I first read it, I assumed it would mean game turn, but I think the player turn interpretation is correct. Interceptor does still benefit when combined with Skyfire since without it a stationary Contemptor-Mortis would only be able to shoot at flyers with full BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmaarrkk Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Having interceptor AND skyfire, means you can chose to fire at ground or air targets for that turn, if you didnt have interceptor and just skyfire you would be snap shoting at ground targets, I think player turn is correct. I ended up going 3 2 1 at the 1750 tourny, tabled two grey knight players, nearly tabled a MC spam nid list and drew two games against the winner who was using a 50 man blob with azreal and sabers (t7, 3 plus saves!) with termies, libby and psyker and detta, both games were dead draws. The 24inch ability of my army I posted above is harsh, very harsh, hence why i tabled both GK players, I should have been in the final but messed the results up for game one (didnt relise fast attack kill in scourging was a primary objective, I put it down as a secondary, for some reason if the 5th game was a draw the winner would be the winner of the first game which again was a dead draw I went 17- nil in the second game so I should have gone through. oh well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Unless the most recent IA Book phrases it differently, the PDF version of the IA 6th Ed Update just states "When stationary gains the Skyfire and Interceptor special rule". Since it doesn't specify turns, and is stationary until your next movement phase, surely it has both rules in your opponent's Movement Phase still? I'm home now and have checked my pdf (ah, the perils of posting from memory) and I think you're right GlauG. I appear to have confused the original Helical Targeting Array rule with the update and got it dead wrong. Polythemus, I retract my comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmaarrkk Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Unless the most recent IA Book phrases it differently, the PDF version of the IA 6th Ed Update just states "When stationary gains the Skyfire and Interceptor special rule". Since it doesn't specify turns, and is stationary until your next movement phase, surely it has both rules in your opponent's Movement Phase still? I'm home now and have checked my pdf (ah, the perils of posting from memory) and I think you're right GlauG. I appear to have confused the original Helical Targeting Array rule with the update and got it dead wrong. Polythemus, I retract my comment. AS big gumbo said, it is explained in IA aeronautica, the latest IA book with the comteptor and it is for the 'turn' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted March 4, 2013 Author Share Posted March 4, 2013 Meh...if you design your list to take on flier spam, you'll end up not facing any fliers. Fliers are expensive and non-scoring. The more your opponent takes (with the exception of scythes and vendettas), the less stuff he has that matters. Sell out to air defense, and you're screwed when you face deathroller spam, drop pod spam, nine pieplates, or 200 guardsmen instead. Besides, the list in question is NOT tournament-hard. It's a mediocre list for casual play...with max flak missiles. It is only half of a List, The gunline section. As such it is designed to hit multiple targets as needed, with either ML/Lascannons. Most everything will have a 4++ cover or be in an AV 14 building with a 24"Salvo Buffer around it. I would think its a very strong defensive position to consolidate your home objectives. The other 900 points or so would be dedicated to DW/RW to attack and score objectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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