Anti-air without Forge World

[Upstartes]

I know there have been other topics on this, but most of them were shortly after the codex came out, and I am curious to hear from folks who have played a decent number of games since then. I'd like to know how fellow DA players have been doing when facing enemy flyers and using only codex-legal (i.e. not Forge World) units. What have you been using? How has it been working out?

 

[Tiger9gamer]

Flakk missiles are a waste if the enemy brings no flyers :/

[EPK]

The obvious and cheapest choice is a defense line with quad gun and also not a waste as Tiger above put it.

 

However, just some decent volume of fire can help. 6s are bound to come up. I've seen poeple write about success with Black Knights for instance - rapid firing those plasma talons on rear armor.

[Vash]

I dont see the issue with flyers really. 

How many do you guys see on a regular basis? From the complaints on the forum, it looks like you guys are fighting atleast 3 flyers in every list you face. Remember, that internet lists are out there, but it doesnt mean that they exist in real life. Very few young players can afford flyer heavy lists, and older players usually go for balanced lists and play for fun. So I would say, expect 1-2 flyers in average. 

 

And that number is pretty decent and can be dealt with. 

As EPK said, many players have had great success with taking them down with plasma weapons, rear shots etc. I am one of them, but with my Grey Knights. I gasp every time I see a flyer enter the table... but then I shoot at it with prescience psychic power and my psycannons, and down it goes. 

Just imagine twin-linked plasma guns, and what they will do to a flyer, specially from behind, which Black knights can get very easily. 

 

Some numbers. a six man unit Black knights (a normal unit size from what I have seen), that means 5 plasma talons (1 grenade launcher). 

10 shots twin-linked gives us around 3 hits. A rear shot against AV10 will give us a decent chance for a penetrating hit. 

 

But, if your local meta fields a lot of flyers, this suggestion of ignoring the anti-flyer units isnt good advice at all :D . 

If you want to counter them with only DA codex things, well, the Black knights are ok. Nephlim is not great, but not worthless either. It's special rule of making vehicles immobilised helps a a lot against flyers (locked velocity). 

 

Othervice I would say we have some problems with flyer heavy lists. Example Air Cav IG, Necron flying circus etc. But, against lists like that I would focus on dealing with the ground units. Only ground units can claim objectives and usually only troops. So... your opponent my have air superiority, but you will most likely have ground superiority... and thats where the objectives are, right?

[Shiodome]

the old fashioned mortis dread is still fine...  not the FW one with skyfire/interceptor (though i'm not sure why you're limiting to none FW?), just a plain dread with 2x TL-AC.  is always going to be useful/fun whether there's fliers or not and it looks cool.  though imo they're one of the things that should be run in pairs, a solo dread won't get you far.  on the plus side the elites slot isn't terribly competitive for most lists, so you're not missing out on something to take them.

 

other than that both our devastators and librarians are cheap.  4 lascannons with prescience on them, and a librarian in TDA tanking at the front (only 100pts) is ok too... and certainly not wasted if there's no fliers.

[Brother Immolator]

Same thing can be said about fortifications, not anyone has them or wants them (though the LGS might allow to use theirs if you manage to time it)

I myself go for flakk missiles. I get two tac and one scout squad so since i have the launchers I might as well make them more versatile. It is a waste of bolter shots (snipers are another matter entirely) but it gets the job done or I am lucky with my rolls.

 

Now a dev squad with the sarge using the signum would be pretty effective as well.  But to me missiles in devs dont cut it. I need them to have a heavier punch.

[Brother dean]

My local meta has several 2 valk lists and dragons are becoming a problem, just not to my Deathwing

I am planning on trying out the Nephilim soon.

[John_f]

Vendetta or storm raven. Allies are there to help you

[Vash]

Vendetta or storm raven. Allies are there to help you

Yah, Vendetta is probably one of the best ones out there atm. 

Thing is, to get it one needs to get a HQ and TROOP from IG too. Don't want to waste the points, so better make good use of the allies. 

[Thedead]

If I was going down the path of Vendetta then I would also make sure I take a officer of the fleet.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Commisar Lord, plasma or melta Vets, Vendetta, Hydra, done @ less than 400 points.

[Herocide]

I like Devastators with a Prescience Librarian with 2 Las/2 Flakk if I'm not taking a Defense Line. Twin-Linking your Lascannons gives you more rolls for those sixes and you're still adaptable enough to just shoot ground armor if you end up not facing any flyers. However if air is common in your local meta, an Aegis w/ Quad-cannon's probably your best bet.

[elphilo]

Commisar Lord, plasma or melta Vets, Vendetta, Hydra, done @ less than 400 points.

This. Add a Demo Charge to those Plasma Vets and you have a great unit that will pop on the board with the Vendetta and clear an Objective in no time flat.

 

Other than allies and not using Forge World, our AA is kind of meh :(

[Tiger9gamer]

Only problem is, for me at least, the Devastator squad is really squishy X-X most games they get blasted 1st turn!

[Brom MKIV]

I dont play in an ultra competitive environment so I just adjust my strategy and try to build lists that include twin linked weaponry. Im with Vash, how many people face things like 9 cron air and such on a regular basis anyway? 1-2 flyers can be annoying but manageable although 2 heldrakes not so much for many lists.

 

Anyway for options I like a mixture of prescience devs (7 missile LFs for my wolves), and then 4-5 TL asscan razorbacks and a couple rifleman dreads.

Now if people want to get ugly then the contemptors can come out but if thats not an option the other choices are still pretty good at multi tasking. Also ya flakks could be better but 3 S7 skyfire for 145 is still enough to cause problems especially behind an aegis.

 

Honestly one of the best options when you see multiple flyers (often plus other units) in reserve is just to move to a more aggressive strategy and try to swing the board state in your favor before they arrive. Of the worthwhile flyers really only the storm raven and heldrake are capable of serious damage, and against more than a single unit. My ravenwing could care less about 3 las from a turn 2-3 vendetta or two, meanwhile nightscythes are more expensive more fragile versions of the more broken anni barges. 

[Omega-Plus]

I don't know about the Cronies fliers being little threat. The first game I played against one it came onboard turn three (if I remember correctly) and used that retarded death ray or whatever to all but destroy my LRC, predator, dreadnought, and a fortification that a Dev sqd was in. It was nasty.

[Brom MKIV]

The doom scythe is nasty, better against mech than infantry. However many cron players wont opt for it though since it takes a HS slot has no transport capacity and costs the same as 2 anni barges. 2 barges are straight better. Coming in T2+ also contributes.

 

Anyway im not saying flyers arent good but armies that bring them do pay for what they do, not just in pts but in random arrival and at times limited impact too. Would a tri las pred coming on from reserve actually be that much different than a vendetta if you couldnt reach it or you had more pressing concerns? I think not.

 

Now the dragon is a bit too good, 2-3 is broken I admit. It ignores nearly all of the inherent liability that most flyers have as mentioned above. It can damage 2 seperate units in 2 phases, ignores cover and has 360 threat radius, plus it doesnt need to evade. I wouldnt expect anything less from a space dragon.

The only saving grace is it does have an av10 ass and skyfire and twin linked weaponry can and has dropped it or blown the baleflamer off at which point its a 170 pt annoyance with random attacks. IMO it makes up for CSMs sorry lack of transports so power to them.

 

Lastly note that nemesor can no longer deep strike entire cron air forces in response to your reserves as of the latest FAQ and daemons rotated as of today so 2 of those broken lists need redesigning because at least one and maybe/hopefully both have lost significant power.

[Vash]

I don't know about the Cronies fliers being little threat. The first game I played against one it came onboard turn three (if I remember correctly) and used that retarded death ray or whatever to all but destroy my LRC, predator, dreadnought, and a fortification that a Dev sqd was in. It was nasty.

Well your list includes a lot of armour it seems. And of course, the Doom Scythe is made for taking out armour. Same thing with Vendetta, triple TL-lascannons is really deadly. 

Now the thing is, even if you had anti-air in the form of your own flyers, there is no stopping the Doom Scythe taking out your vehicles really. 

 

Against the Doom Scythe an ADL with quad auto-cannons will be enough to take it down for sure. But against a Stormraven, Vendetta, Helldrake, it wont do as much good. Also you need to man the quad gun, so its 100+ pts against something you might not face, and against AV10-11 to secure air safety. 

 

We need to face it, Flyers are there to kill our ground units. Vendettas, Doom Scythe and Stormraven will tear our vehicles apart. I wont argue about that. But work around this. Focus on objectives, go for his ground units (scoring ones) and so on. Remember, in 6th edition you win the game by claiming objectives, not by flying around killing stuff. So my advice is to get tough and preferably large units. Heck even mass IG units will do. A Doom Scythe can't kill 10 or more IG scoring units. Sure the Helldrake will kill IG with ease, heck even SMs. But spam out scoring units and what not, and trust me... that flyer can't handle it all. It will hurt you, YES, but it is made for killing us and not much more. 

 

How I counter Flyers with an army with no anti-air or flyers of my own, is to push forward (against helldrakes) so they have to enter hover mode to be able to fire at me, or get really tough units, such as terminators, so I wont care that much. 

Atm I play Grey Knights and DA Ravenwing. 

With Grey Knights (atm) I play with a solid core of Terminators, supported by deadly but fragile henchmen. No vehicles what so ever. The enemy is pretty much forced to deal with the henchmen first, as they are scoring, and pack the deadliest fire power in my army. This leaves my terminators and other units free to get into position (objectives, flanks, etc). Henchmen usually die in turn 3 or 4, Helldrak or other nasty things usually beats them. But I end up winning as the henchmen has done enough damage, terminators grabbed objectives and not moving. 

 

With Ravenwing, I push forward like there is no tomorrow if there is a Helldrake or something that threatens my bikes in a similar way from flyers. Forcing them to either go into hover mode or just fly by them. I take the fight to the enemy deployment zone to avoid those pesky flyers. 

 

Now I know this doesnt work for everyone. Standard greenwing won't be able to push forward like this, nor is it a part of their tactic. 

[Brother Immolator]

A helldrake begs to be slaughtered by black knights. A fast move to pass underneath it and then fire at its back armor is not a laughing perspective for it. You are ditching 8-12 twin linked plasma shots at it.

[Vash]

And if we are afraid of the Helldrake and face them constantly, we can buy a power field generator. It will give us some basic protection. Better than nothing, better than what other SMs get. 

[Brom MKIV]

So I took a minute to build a pure codex DAs AA list. No forgeworld. No allies. Just guns. If anything less than cron air spam causes this list a problem ill eat my shorts.. (please dont hold me to that)

 

libby, bike, pfg, auspex, infravisor (prescience)

 

rifleman dread, 2 tlac

rifleman dread, 2 tlac

 

5 tacs, flamer, razorback- tlac

5 tacs, flamer, razorback- tlac

5 tacs, flamer, razorback- tlac

5 tacs, flamer, razorback- tlac

 

4 black knights, mbs

4 black knights, mbs

4 black knights, mbs

 

5 devastators, 4 lc's

aegis dl, icarus

whirlwind

whirlwind

 

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