How important is anti flyer?

[Brother B]

As a dark angel player using predominantly ravenwing I don't have many options for this (the new flyers are a bit crappy). Other than using speed to get up behind them and bolter glance the rear armour. The advantage of this is twin-linkage.

 

My question is generally how much anti-flyer should someone take and what is the best option(s)?

 

I'm open to all ideas and frequently consider having a tactical with flakk or and aegis with gun.

[Balthamal]

It depends on  what you generally might face. If you're certain to be facing 1/2 then an ADL with quad gun is a solid choice, flakk missiles don't really cut if for the extra cost. Nephilims are not all that bad at smacking down fliers just at 180 points are broken cost wise. 

 

If you weren't playing ravenwing I'd have recommended a Mortis Contemptor Pattern dreadnaught, they're excellent at putting down multiple fliers. 

 

You could consider allying some blood angels or grey knights for access to the storm raven/storm talon

 

Hyperios pattern whirlwinds from Forgeworld are another effective anti air unit.

 

A lot boils down to how many fliers you'd play against on a regular basis on the scale of 1/2 through to vendetta/cron air spam and your own personal preference. Forgeworld has some great toys in contemptors or even storm eagles

[march10k]

Answer:  Not very.  Enemy fliers are expensive, non-scoring, and don't kill much.  The worst they can do is allow him to charge you at the time and place of his choosing.  If they have an assault ramp, they're marginally more useful than a drop pod...for 5 times the price.

 

Sell out to air defense, and you may not even get the chance to stop him from doing so.  Best to just ignore them and focus on killing the stuff that matters.  Maybe take a ADL with quad gun...at least that's got the redeeming quality that you can stash a lascannon devastator squad behind it, and the quad gun is as effective against ground targets as it is air targets.  But anything beyond that, and you're wasting points on stuff that doesn't win games.

[elphilo]

Sell out to air defense, and you may not even get the chance to stop him from doing so.  Best to just ignore them and focus on killing the stuff that matters.  Maybe take a ADL with quad gun...at least that's got the redeeming quality that you can stash a lascannon devastator squad behind it, and the quad gun is as effective against ground targets as it is air targets.  But anything beyond that, and you're wasting points on stuff that doesn't win games.

This. I go by the philosophy of all or nothing with flyers. Either I own the sky or I don't. And since our codex is kind of meh on AA, I usually forgo it.

[Brother Immolator]

I make a habit of purchasing flakk for all my missile launchers. Stormravens with bloodstrikes loaded with deathcompany and dread are not a sight you will ignore. The enemy has given you potential to destroy or seriously remove 1/3 of his army. Plus if they manage to land them its gonna get ugly.

 

The most effective though appears to be RWKs shooting at rear armor,

[Finn]

Enemy fliers are expensive, non-scoring, and don't kill much.

 

I am comforted that the Heldrake does not kill much. I was afraid of it before, but now I know it doesn't do much during the match.

[Brother Immolator]

 

Enemy fliers are expensive, non-scoring, and don't kill much.

 

I am comforted that the Heldrake does not kill much. I was afraid of it before, but now I know it doesn't do much during the match.

Depends on load out/what it targets/enemy generals mental state. Not too many variables and possibilities to screw up. Not the airborne death it sounds but on occasion it might burn down an entire squad.

[Vash]

Flyers are dangerous... but as most people here have said, they pay a price for it, and are not scoring. Furthermore, they are not on the battle field that much really. 2-3 turns is what I usually experience when facing flyers. Arrives at turn 2-3. Shots in turn 3-4, then flies off the table. Re-arrives in turn 5 and after that the game pretty much ends. 

 

Ravenwing can in most cases take down a flyer with Black knights TL-Talons from the rear. Great speed/outflank gives us that upperhand against flyers if they now are so threatening. Its not a sure thing... but its something atleast. 

[march10k]

 

Enemy fliers are expensive, non-scoring, and don't kill much.

 

I am comforted that the Heldrake does not kill much. I was afraid of it before, but now I know it doesn't do much during the match.

Sarcasm fail!

 

It doesn't kill much!  And if you waste points on dedicated air defense units just in case a heldrake shows its ugly face, you've done more damage to yourself than the heldrake ever could!

[tiberius183]

As I've told people before, if you're running pure or predominantly RW, just ignore them.  Hit his ground units fast and hard enough and all he'll have left are his flyers.  And at that point, you've won.

[FarFromSam]

How do yall keep the BK alive after the drake comes in? Usually the Helldrakes first target are the knights and they fold like lawn chairs against ap3 flamer.  Even with 2 squads the knights seem to draw priority fire.  Enough so that they lose their effectiveness.  Is there a deployment option I'm missing, or a way of spacing them?

[Vash]

How do yall keep the BK alive after the drake comes in? Usually the Helldrakes first target are the knights and they fold like lawn chairs against ap3 flamer.  Even with 2 squads the knights seem to draw priority fire.  Enough so that they lose their effectiveness.  Is there a deployment option I'm missing, or a way of spacing them?

I field a Librarian with a power field generator on bike. He usually joins the Ravenwing command squad, but if I know there is a Helldrake, I'll let him join the Black knights. That will give them some protection. Also, outflanking your black knights will increase their survivability. Heck, I think I will outflank almost every time with these guys. 

[FarFromSam]

 

How do yall keep the BK alive after the drake comes in? Usually the Helldrakes first target are the knights and they fold like lawn chairs against ap3 flamer.  Even with 2 squads the knights seem to draw priority fire.  Enough so that they lose their effectiveness.  Is there a deployment option I'm missing, or a way of spacing them?

I field a Librarian with a power field generator on bike. He usually joins the Ravenwing command squad, but if I know there is a Helldrake, I'll let him join the Black knights. That will give them some protection. Also, outflanking your black knights will increase their survivability. Heck, I think I will outflank almost every time with these guys. 

I Hadn't considered the PFG, It's a shame Azrael can't take a Bike :P.  Outflanking is my tactic as well, and I cross my fingers that I go 2nd.  That extra twelve inches from the model for the flamer as well as vector strikes are a bummer.

[Brother Immolator]

You dont need the PFG, it gives saves to them as well. You need to jink ;)

[elphilo]

You dont need the PFG, it gives saves to them as well. You need to jink

Jink doesn't help against AP3 flamer though

[Brother Immolator]

You dont need the PFG, it gives saves to them as well. You need to jink

Jink doesn't help against AP3 flamer though

Right fast tracked, its a cover save.

[Cypher 102]

The jink save doesn't work against the Heldrake's baleflamer.

[Brom MKIV]

Speaking mainly from a RW standpoint, heldrakes are the main issue for RW but also infantry heavy armies in general especially now that it gained 360 LoS from the latest FAQs. Outflanking as mentioned is a fine game plan for fast armies liike bikes if you go second so you have a decent chance of coming in after the dragon, and if your outflanking units can threaten the drake. If not its probably better to just play aggressive.

 

Either way I feel it basically boils down to saturation of potential threats to flyers. In a diverse meta this can be hard to address all types of flyers and mech suffers worse overall due to the nature of most flyers being geared towards AT rather than AI with the dragon being the exception.

 

If we evaluate flyers we find the turn a flyer arrives is actually when its most powerful because you can't predict where its gonna be. After that you have a turn (more if it doesnt leave CAS) when it becomes predictable. This is the pivotal turn especially if they have multiple flyers plus reserves manipulation like comms relay. Again speaking from a RW standpoint, bailing into combat against non combat specialist units to hide from flyers for a turn is also a completely viable option with hit and run since units like devs/havocs, tacs/csm (some builds), cron warriors/immortals etc wont do much damage to a RAS unit and visa versa. If you win and they fail moral cool they may get swept. If not disengage at the end of their CC phase.

 

Anyway IMO and in the context of pure DAs (not FW/allies), building an army for a specific strategy while attempting to limit the effects of flyers is the best option, then try to impose your will first. One thing ive learned, two armies with no strategy's comes down to luck. Two armies where one has a specific strategy and imposes it usually results in that army winning.

 

To me trying to address potential threats just ends up watering down your gameplan. Obviously now if everyone you play rolls with at least 2+ flyers then its no longer potential threats and they need to be addressed.

 

That said though if your environment is diverse with a smattering of flyer armies and those without you can still build dual purpose units than can, in a pinch, function as AA. This is my environment and these units include: black knights, rifleman dreads, TLAC razorbacks, prescience devs, flakk devs, anything with the words assault cannon and so on. Hell the dakka banner makes even nilla RAS into a serious threat against vendettas heldrakes and storm talons. Lastly combat squading does run the risk of giving up easier VPs but against weapons like the baleflamer its well worth dividing your units to save resources so this is another option I use.

 

Anyway thats my approach.

[march10k]

That's pretty much the right answer...except the bit about taking flak dreads, lol...I might try to hurri-bolter an enemy flier's rear armor to death with a dark talon, though...average should be two glances...so bringing one down isn't THAT unlikely...and it'll certainly ring his bell, and raise the percieved threat level of the dark talon dramatically...which is definitely a good thing, if you've already dropped the bomb.  At that point, any attention the enemy pays your talon is a major victory, cause it's essentially shot its wad and is just tooling around looking to spray some gratuitous bolter fire at random targets.