Vehicle Weapons Arcs Issues

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Amiably tangled horns last weekend with a guy over Vehicles and Weapon Arcs.
 
So here is my position which he disagrees with:

• Weapons that can physically swivel on a model, or at least were designed to swivel if modeled correctly (aka Turret, Sponson, or Pintle Mounted):
  • Possess only the Horizontal Arc which they are able (or should have been able) to physically swivel on. This means it may be possible that the resulting Arc could be <45 degrees
  • Possess a Vertical Arc of 45 degrees Inclination AND 45 degrees Declination, creating a 90 deg total arc
• Weapons that cannot physically swivel on a model (aka Hull-Mounted):
  • Possess 45 degree Arc horizontally (Left & Right) and vertically (Inclined and Declined)
  • This means a total field of fire is a 90 degree cone

Now, some models do not have weapons specified with a location or mounting. Sometimes in a Unit Entry it will specify how the weaponry is mounted but many times it will not. This is not a problem for (most) models with well-established and available GW kits.
 
However, issues still lurk. For example:

• Vendetta/Valkyrie says they make take Heavy Bolter Sponsons, but the plastic kit is supplied with Pintle-Mounted Heavy Bolters (those Door Gunners are Pintle Mounts... no one could ever call those Sponsons). Are you allowed to kit-bash the model with actual HB Sponsons? If so, must you use IG Sponsons (90 deg Arc ala Leman Russ) or can you use SM Sponsons (180 deg Arc ala Predator)?
• A DE Raider has what appears to be a pintle-mounted Dark Lance on the front. However, the Unit entry does not specify at all how this weapon is mounted. When modeled correctly with a DE Gunner holding the triggers, the gun has about 10 degree Arc physically possible. When there is no Gunner holding the triggers, the gun can swivel up to 90 degrees. So what is the Arc? 360 for Pintle-mounted, 90 for True-swivel (gunnerless) or 10 degrees for Gunner-swivel?
• Hydra Flak Tank has no model. Are the Weapons all Hull-mounted? The FW kit has the Autocannons Turret-mounted, but does a FW model set legal precedent for home-made kitbash or scratchbuilt models?
• Can Ork weapons pretty much do whatever they'd like (except for the few weapons with specified mountings)?

So Basically:

 

3. Are weapons assumed to be Hull-Mounted if otherwise unspecified for Models which do not have official GW model kits?

4. If answer to #3 is no, then how are they handled?

 

 

I'm looking for feedback on #1, 2, 3 & 4.

[dswanick]

1. Your points are correct according to RAW on pg.72. For weapons that swivel, you must point the weapon at the target and then trace line of sight from the mount along the barrel. This will limit such weapons to an arc defined by the design of the model.

 

2. Your points are mostly correct, except the flat statement that Hull-mount weapons can not physically swivel. Many Hull mount weapons I'm familiar with on GW models can be modeled to swivel. One example is the Leman Russ. It's Hull mount weapon can be modeled to swivel, and is therefore limited to a horizontal traverse of less than 45' each side. Otherwise, you are correct.

 

3. There is no RAW for this. GW assumes you'll only play 40k with their models, modeled as designed.

 

4. As per The Most Important Rule.

 

Issues:

Valk/Vendetta : I believe the reason the Valk/Vendetta H.Bolters are called "sponson" when they look "pintle-mounted" is because their physical fire arc is more similar to a sponson-mount weapon. Look on pg.72, the pintle-mount weapon is shown as having a 360' arc from the weapon mount. The Valk/Vendetta H.Bolters would have large blind spots as defined by the body of the Flyer.

DE Raider : Unknown, as there is no RAW.

Hydra Flak Tank : I would consider the FW model the "Official" representation, not because it's Forge World but because the drawning on pg.51 is of the Forge World model for the unit.

Ork : Again, as with the DE, no RAW. I would argue in favor of this approach because Ork equipment is fluffed as being unique, custom, and kitbash so any reasonable representation would be acceptable to me(ie. no gun barels that telescope up to 18", elevate 4' above the table top, or otherwise show clear intent to gain an advantage).

 

Hope this helps.

[jeffersonian000]

"Sponson" means side-mounted, so in the case of the IC Valkyrie, the "door gunner" Heavy Bolter are indeed "sponsons".  "Pintle" is a type of weapon mounting the leaves the weapon free-standing while able to be swivalled, such as a pintle-mounted .50 machinegun on the roof of a jeep as well as a tank commander's pintle-mounted machinegun on most moedern tanks.

 

As to firing arcs of vehicle weapons, if the weapon looks like it was intended to point that way, even if the weapon is glued in place, the weapon is treated as being able to point that way.  In the case of weapons that obviously cannot pivot or swival, the weapon is treated as having a 45-degree horizontal and vertical swing allowing for a 90-degree cone of effect.

 

There can be issues with modelling weapon placement differently than the models pictures and instructions show the weapons to placed, as opponents may challenge the model as being "modeled for advantage".  Thankfully, GW removed most of their previous rules regarding models being built to take advange of rules.  Personally, I think if perfectly fine to hard-mount a Leman Russ's sponson on either side of the turret, but I'm pretty sure my opponent won't care for it

 

SJ.

[*Furyou Miko]

Don't even get us started on an aircraft's ability to pitch and yaw.

 

>< I actually had someone call me on "modelling for advantage" because I didn't glue my vendetta to its base, so I could tilt the fuselage up and down.