A possible daemon death star

[Black_Crusader]

I am reading the new codex and i find it extremly good. I like everything in the book (except maybe from Epidemius)

While reading the book i got an idea for a possible combo that on paper sounds very strong.

 

You need : Fateweaver (300 points), Herald of tzeencth with an exalted gift and disc (100 points) and 9 screamers (225 points)

 

You put the Herald with the screamers (obviously) and take the hellforged artifact grimoire of true names. (random dice here i come)

You next generate powers from the divination and hopefully (high chance, maybe put some more pcykers with access to it) get the blessing for 4+invu.

So in your first turn you cast that power on the unit (probably a primaris as well) then cast the grimoire. The Herald will not get the bonus but you can protect him with LOS. You have a 3+ chance to get your save to 2++ for the screamers or simply lose the power.

Now as i understand it most daemons of tzeencth get Ld12 when casting powers. That means you can't fail the power only take perils.

Also Fateweaver can give you a single reroll per turn that you can use at the grimoire or if that was past on a possible LOS for the Herald.

 

In short: You roll for divination powers and roll the 4++ invu and every turn you get a 3+ with reroll chance of succesfully casting the Grimoire.

And you get a unit of screamers with 2++ and reroll (daemons of tzeencth. Turbo boost in your opponent face next turn you simply kill everything and survive the worst kind of shooting and debuffs. (unless your opponent can somehow reduce your invu save the best think he can do is give you tones of saves or cansel your reroll)

Someone could say that the enemy can kill Fateweaver or you roll poorly on the above checks but still don't you think this type of setting is worth it?

[Blood Shadow]

Tzeentch Daemons would only be LD 10, you cant get higher than that, the +3 to LD that Tzeentch gives them is presumably for the Horrors as they are LD7. Nice idea though

[Black_Crusader]

right only wounds and attacks can get higher, i didin't bother to check it because i thought maybe it worked for psykic tests only. The general idea still works without to much random effect.

[Blood Shadow]

I didn't think any of the stats could go beyond 10, am i missing something? if so then perhaps i'm wrong about the Tzeentch daemon ld

[Rayray]

I do believe only attacks can go higher than a 10.

[Excessus]

Thats just as long as they arent actual stats, like daemon weapons.

[Black_Crusader]

BRB page 2 Modifiers ''Attacks and Wounds are the only characteristics that can be raised above 10.''

[Blood Shadow]

ah thanks, i hadn't noticed that

[Iron Sage]

Like the new codex too! It is however very...different and I am sure some will be very dissapointed about various changes in the book, and I confess I am not sure I exactly "love" the abusrd ammount of randomness, even though most of the randomness is alright effect-wise.

 

GUO and Bloodthirsters are tough, and can get very tough if you take 2 greater gifts (which you probably always should, given how awesome they tend to be for a mere 20 points).

T 7 GUO with Biomancy is a bit "lol"...

 

Really, really dislike Warpflame though. Horrid special rule. If it was +6 or +1 to FNP untill end of turn or untill your next turn, then no biggie, but cummulative, for :cusss sake Phil Kelly!

 

As for Soulgrinders, I can only say that my 2 defilers have finally found some use (decent counts as that i would argue).

 

I also notice that CSM with the daemon special rule (some of our more crappy units that mostly) can utilize the daemon icons and musicians to a certain extent (i.e. they will count as daemon but with the wrong "daemon of", so will still scatter, but only +d6 and not 2d6 if used with daemons).

 

As for troops, they seem decent enough in their nerfed versions due to points costs. Plaguebearers will still be a fairly solid unit due to good cover saves for instance. Daemonettes seem more than decent.

 

Unsure about Beast of N. Bloody expensive (50+) but It will not Die, shrouded, +5 daemonic invul, T5, 4W and Beast unit type for speed might make them okayish. Their special charge attack might be nifty in certain situations. I would still probably take chaos spawns out of the CSM dex though...

 

Anyway, the mis-matched PDF leak that infests the net, lacks certain pages, so its not as if I have digested the entire codex yet.

 

My overall impression is never the less: Very interesting and very strange (strange in that its a complete re-write of the daemon codex, so a lot of stuff works rather diffrently).

Although G. Daemons have worse saves than before and so arguably die easier, they generally hit a lot harder and certain gifts and psychic powers/combinations seem totally ludicriously OP.

 

Flamer nerf was much needed. However, again, Kelly, why Warplame, why?? Would have been perfect str 4, AP 4 if that blasted Warpflame rule didnt exist. Same for all the Tzeentch powers (never ever use Change powers on Plague marines!!!), although apart from the :cussed up Warpflame rule, Change powers seems otherwise quite good.

 

Screamers seem okay now. Not as OP as before, but still good for their cost, and their saves are decent with 5+ invul, re-roll 1s.

 

Chariots seems rather underwhelming.

 

Honestly I think this codex will take a few days to digest properly. As I am only ever going to use them as allies to my CSM a lot of the limitations of the daemons will be negligeble or non-existant (while at the same time I won`t get to take 4 heralds for one HQ choice as one can do if Daemons is your primary detachment).

 

Ps. Of all things, Furies seems rather nifty. 6 points only but an attrocious LD of 2. However for 6 points you get jump pack infantry with str 4 which can be upgraded to "daemon of" for 1 or 2 points.  Seems like a relativly cheap diversion.

[Azekai]

Ps. Of all things, Furies seems rather nifty. 6 points only but an

attrocious LD of 2. However for 6 points you get jump pack infantry with

str 4 which can be upgraded to "daemon of" for 1 or 2 points.  Seems

like a relativly cheap diversion.

What?! LD2? So if they have to make a morale save they fail unless they somehow roll insane heroism? What a load of crap. I mean, they are furies, I get it, they suck, but they are still daemons- why daemons lost fearless at all is beyond me. Nothing should make them run for the hills, they are pure manifestations of rage/depair/ect . . . what an idiotic idea. It almost seems like they forgot who/what daemons are- they don't even really die- why would they flee a fight?!

[Iron Sage]

 

Ps. Of all things, Furies seems rather nifty. 6 points only but an

attrocious LD of 2. However for 6 points you get jump pack infantry with

str 4 which can be upgraded to "daemon of" for 1 or 2 points.  Seems

like a relativly cheap diversion.

What?! LD2? So if they have to make a morale save they fail unless they somehow roll insane heroism? What a load of crap. I mean, they are furies, I get it, they suck, but they are still daemons- why daemons lost fearless at all is beyond me. Nothing should make them run for the hills, they are pure manifestations of rage/depair/ect . . . what an idiotic idea. It almost seems like they forgot who/what daemons are- they don't even really die- why would they flee a fight?!

Cool it cat :D

 

Its not that bad. Remember, 6 points, and flying str 4 attacks. Daemonic instabillity is only ever rolled for after a lost assault, and otherwise daemons are immune to fear, pinning, etc.

Not that LD 2 on furies are not awful, lol. But they ARE flying , do have str 4, and only cost 6 points :)

 

But yes, if your furies lose an assault, then they are indeed pretty much dead meat!

[Iron Sage]

Fleshhounds however, 16 points, Ws 5, str 4, T4, 2 W with the nifty Scout universal rule might be alright. it also has khorne collar giving them 2+ DtW.

 

Probably a lot better than furies when I come to think of it. However, regardless and despite that LD 2 on the Furies, I must say that I did find the 6 point flying fury more than a tad interesting ::)

 

 

But yeah, lot of different stuff in this codex, Wythre and there will be some dissapointments for daemon players indeed (IMO Bloodcrushers are for instance no longer worth it I despite being 3 W and cavalry due to +6 armour and T4 as well as costing +5 points).

 

This codex is pretty much a mixed bag. Some nerfing all around on daemons in general. Then some psycotich good stuff in between.

 

But yeah...Greater daemons with psyk. Some of the Greater daemon combos available in this dex made me go "golly gee!?!?".  A GUO with T 9- 10 will not be ultra rare at all....

[Black_Crusader]

If you buff properly the Bloodcrushers with psyk and add one or two Heralds to pass the insta deaths between them and bring AP2 weapons they can become a very strong unit i believe. It is all a matter of combos. If you pay something like 400 points for a deathstar (two Heralds and 3 or 4 crushers) unit that you can buff with FNP, 4+invu it will not die and who knows what else (Grimoire for 3++, probably need the Fateweaver for the reroll so only at double force but you get where i am going) maybe they won't be just descent.

 

Edit: double force organisation isn't needed just put the grimoire on a Herald, i think i will try this unit first chance i get, combined with the first i wrote!!)

[Black_Crusader]

Also Greater Daemons may start weaker than before but for a very small point icrease they can become extremly more powerful. 20 or 30 points more than you used to pay for them.

 

A Bloodthirster if you get some specific gifts, traits and blessings can get something like 12 attacks with reroll at WS 10, Str 8, AP2, Init 10... It kills everything!!! of cource you must get realy lucky to get that combination but it is there.

[Iron Sage]

If you buff properly the Bloodcrushers with psyk and add one or two Heralds to pass the insta deaths between them and bring AP2 weapons they can become a very strong unit i believe. It is all a matter of combos. If you pay something like 400 points for a deathstar (two Heralds and 3 or 4 crushers) unit that you can buff with FNP, 4+invu it will not die and who knows what else (Grimoire for 3++, probably need the Fateweaver for the reroll so only at double force but you get where i am going) maybe they won't be just descent.

 

my first impression of the codex makes me certainly agree with you. Seems like one can do a lot of stuff with this dex.

 

Still damn happy that I will use my daemons as allies though, as I would hate using the time consuming warp table every turn :P

 

And hehe, as of now, I am officially over joyed that I own a Great Unclean One, a KOS and a Bloodthirster, hehe.

 

Some might whine about the saves on the Greater daemons. However....If you actually sit down and read the dex, stats and costs (very much the options, lol), then it becomes pretty damn clear that although slightly more "glass", they are horrifyingly more awesome now compared to before ^^

 

Example: For under 300 points you get a HQ that just CANNOT (`scuse the capitals here :P ) get killed. If you fear giving Slay the Warlord to the enemy, then you cannot go wrong with an upgraded GUO...Unkillable....Just unkillable...

 

Also Greater Daemons may start weaker than before but for a very small point icrease they can become extremly more powerful. 20 or 30 points more than you used to pay for them.

 

A Bloodthirster if you get some specific gifts, traits and blessings can get something like 12 attacks with reroll at WS 10, Str 8, AP2, Init 10... It kills everything!!! of cource you must get realy like to get that combination but it is there.

Indeed. i just touched upon that, albeit I used the ludicrous GUO as my favoured example :)

[the jeske]

For under 300 points you get a HQ that just CANNOT (`scuse the capitals here

) get killed. If you fear giving Slay the Warlord to the enemy, then

you cannot go wrong with an upgraded GUO...Unkillable....Just

unkillable...

eldar runes. psychic IG battle squad . anything with poison in their army en mass. + he if miss roll , he wont kill himself but may make the killing for your opponent so much easier.

list is too random for an effective list.

one can build an extrem version of a tyfus tar pit list[lots of fast moving units tar pit , ignore what my random rolls do , what my opponent is doing , generaly sit on the objectives and not give up firstblood/slay the warlords too soon/at all].

as ally they have some interesting stuff. cheap nurgle herald , ze fly cavalery some plaguies for a tyfus build ? awesome fast moving zombis that can actualy kill stuff sometimes.

karnak+hounds + praying opponent doesnt run a RP in his IG list . nice blob stoper .

2x16 netts herald in a huron army also runing terminators , chaos version of deathwing assault .

but truth be told IG are still better ally for everyone who can have them .

[Iron Sage]

For under 300 points you get a HQ that just CANNOT (`scuse the capitals here

) get killed. If you fear giving Slay the Warlord to the enemy, then

you cannot go wrong with an upgraded GUO...Unkillable....Just

unkillable...

eldar runes. psychic IG battle squad . anything with poison in their army en mass. + he if miss roll , he wont kill himself but may make the killing for your opponent so much easier.

list is too random for an effective list.

one can build an extrem version of a tyfus tar pit list[lots of fast moving units tar pit , ignore what my random rolls do , what my opponent is doing , generaly sit on the objectives and not give up firstblood/slay the warlords too soon/at all].

as ally they have some interesting stuff. cheap nurgle herald , ze fly cavalery some plaguies for a tyfus build ? awesome fast moving zombis that can actualy kill stuff sometimes.

karnak+hounds + praying opponent doesnt run a RP in his IG list . nice blob stoper .

2x16 netts herald in a huron army also runing terminators , chaos version of deathwing assault .

but truth be told IG are still better ally for everyone who can have them .

Yupp, massed poison will eventually work agains the GUO. I reckon its good that it actually has at least one weakness.

However, one cannot argue against the fact that a GUO with biomancy and 2 greater gifts is going to be tough

[Rayray]

For under 300 points you get a HQ that just CANNOT (`scuse the capitals here

) get killed. If you fear giving Slay the Warlord to the enemy, then

you cannot go wrong with an upgraded GUO...Unkillable....Just

unkillable...

eldar runes. psychic IG battle squad . anything with poison in their army en mass. + he if miss roll , he wont kill himself but may make the killing for your opponent so much easier.

list is too random for an effective list.

one can build an extrem version of a tyfus tar pit list[lots of fast moving units tar pit , ignore what my random rolls do , what my opponent is doing , generaly sit on the objectives and not give up firstblood/slay the warlords too soon/at all].

as ally they have some interesting stuff. cheap nurgle herald , ze fly cavalery some plaguies for a tyfus build ? awesome fast moving zombis that can actualy kill stuff sometimes.

karnak+hounds + praying opponent doesnt run a RP in his IG list . nice blob stoper .

2x16 netts herald in a huron army also runing terminators , chaos version of deathwing assault .

but truth be told IG are still better ally for everyone who can have them .

jeske, it would be nice if you stopped reminding people of SW and IG combo. you repeat it everyday i n every place that you post. Do you even play chaos?

[Iron Sage]

For under 300 points you get a HQ that just CANNOT (`scuse the capitals here

) get killed. If you fear giving Slay the Warlord to the enemy, then

you cannot go wrong with an upgraded GUO...Unkillable....Just

unkillable...

eldar runes. psychic IG battle squad . anything with poison in their army en mass. + he if miss roll , he wont kill himself but may make the killing for your opponent so much easier.

list is too random for an effective list.

one can build an extrem version of a tyfus tar pit list[lots of fast moving units tar pit , ignore what my random rolls do , what my opponent is doing , generaly sit on the objectives and not give up firstblood/slay the warlords too soon/at all].

as ally they have some interesting stuff. cheap nurgle herald , ze fly cavalery some plaguies for a tyfus build ? awesome fast moving zombis that can actualy kill stuff sometimes.

karnak+hounds + praying opponent doesnt run a RP in his IG list . nice blob stoper .

2x16 netts herald in a huron army also runing terminators , chaos version of deathwing assault .

but truth be told IG are still better ally for everyone who can have them .

jeske, it would be nice if you stopped reminding people of SW and IG combo. you repeat it everyday i n every place that you post. Do you even play chaos?

LOL!

To be fair, he was far more positive above than he usually is ;)

I for one value his input, despite the usual negative flair in which he posts, as he obviously knows what he is talking about. Honestly, I used to lurk in this forum for many, many years and I learned a thing or two (probably more) reading his posts way back.

He doesn\t lie you know. He just tells it like he thinks it is and he is often right. I thought he was too negative concerning the CSM when that arrived (very much a playable codex our marine dex), but he always raises valid points to be fair.

As for what he said about the GUO, its correct of course, but it doesn`t change the fact that its a super hard HQ (T7, Shrouded, 6W alone makes it disgusting to take down), and especially if you buy 2 greater gifts and maybe some biomancy. Obviously, a very few armies, particularly those with massed poisoned shooting will have not that much trouble with it, but what unit in the game doesnt have a weakness?

Again, what he said which is correct, doesnt change the fact that the greater deamons are all around better now in the new dex :)

But sure, like the sun rises, you can trust Jeske to point out flaws (but again, as I said, one hardly should mind this, as it helps enthusiastic noobs etc.)

[Nehekhare]

2++ with rerolls is nice, yet what effect will they have on the battlefield? same goes for most nurgle units. Everything that relyably kills is in turn so easy to kill that it will never do anything but die to bolterfire (with the exeption of GDs and nurgle Soulgrinders).

 

so either you do nothing and nothing happens, or die in vain.

 

so nothing happens. boring game.

[Azekai]

2++ with rerolls is nice, yet what effect will they have on the

battlefield? same goes for most nurgle units. Everything that relyably

kills is in turn so easy to kill that it will never do anything but die

to bolterfire (with the exeption of GDs and nurgle Soulgrinders).

 

so either you do nothing and nothing happens, or die in vain.

 

so nothing happens. boring game.

Sounds like Jeske's proposed tactics might work though- with all that nothing going on, just flood the battlefield with cheap bodies, and . . . stall. It won't even be hard. Lookit all those tables to roll on! :P

40k: in the grimdarkness of the far future, every damn thing is a tarpit.

[Black_Crusader]

2++ with rerolls is nice, yet what effect will they have on the battlefield? same goes for most nurgle units. Everything that relyably kills is in turn so easy to kill that it will never do anything but die to bolterfire (with the exeption of GDs and nurgle Soulgrinders).

 

so either you do nothing and nothing happens, or die in vain.

 

so nothing happens. boring game.

 If you play only plaguebearers yes... but who will do that?

Now give a 2+ invu with reroll on screamers and see what happens. The combinations are all there you simply have to roll some of them.

[Nehekhare]

9 S5AP2 lamprey attacks kill 3 MEQ or 2 TEQ per turn, which you have spent 225-350pts for.

 

for comparison, a guardman kills ~0.1 MEQ per turn. 30 kill 3 for only 150pts.

[Iron Sage]

9 S5AP2 lamprey attacks kill 3 MEQ or 2 TEQ per turn, which you have spent 225-350pts for.

 

for comparison, a guardman kills ~0.1 MEQ per turn. 30 kill 3 for only 150pts.

Aye, but dont you think its worth mentioning that the unit with the Lamprey`s attacks is a Jetbike unit with better saves etc.?

 

Honestly I dont understand your unit comparison here. a 30 man guardsman unit works quite differntly compared to a jetbike unit to say the least!

[Nehekhare]

suffice to say that they don't kill much ;)

 

being resilient is fine, but then I just shoot Fateweaver or snipe your herald or wait until you roll crap on the warpstorm table.

 

the unit just isn't a thread.