A possible daemon death star

[Iron Sage]

suffice to say that they don't kill much

being resilient is fine, but then I just shoot Fateweaver or snipe your herald or wait until you roll crap on the warpstorm table.

the unit just isn't a thread.

I understand that its "in" to be negative these days, but as you probably well know, the warpstorm table (which I dislike) is way more likely to hurt your opponent than yourself, but I figure that was humour.

As for resillience, I was more pointing to the fact that Screamers is a Fast Attack unit, in which case I found it immensly odd to compare it with 30 man,very stationary, guardsmen. Just not comparable at all IMO.

[Excessus]

Oh comeon Nehekhare, now you are just making stuff up.

 

Care to explain how you'll snipe a herald in the middle of a 20-man strong unit? And as the post above me described, "wait until you roll crap" is hardly an efficient strategy as it's much more likely that he'll roll stuff that's bad for you on it...

 

It's funny when B&C is more negative than whineseer...

[Iron Sage]

Excessus, you know someone is now going to come calling and remind you that you forgot to mention Barrage weapons, so I`ll just do it now so Jeske won`t have to! :D

 

For what its worth, I very much agree with you though.

[Excessus]

Yeah, and I'll kindly remind him of Look Out Sir on 2+... :P

[Iron Sage]

Yeah, and I'll kindly remind him of Look Out Sir on 2+...

Touchè!

[Black_Crusader]

9 S5AP2 lamprey attacks kill 3 MEQ or 2 TEQ per turn, which you have spent 225-350pts for.

 

for comparison, a guardman kills ~0.1 MEQ per turn. 30 kill 3 for only 150pts.

and i am sure that those guardman kill everything better than screamers? Or they are able to fire to their target all at once? how about killing the GUO with the guardmen or tanks? right you probably got other stuff to do that, well i don't need other stuff...

Your comparison makes no sense

Also you expect for the daemon player to roll badly, well if you do the math the chances for something to go completly wrong is low (actually is equal to rolling 1 or 2 with re roll in a single dice). The rest buffs you can probably give to the unit are just bonus to the general idea.

[Gentlemanloser]

The GUO no longer has Eternal Warrior does it?

[Excessus]

 

The GUO no longer has Eternal Warrior does it?

@work, but I don't think so. Though, the only things that would ID it realistically would be nemesis hammers I think since he has T7, and he strikes before them.

 

[Edit]: Well, and then he has biomancy powers with a chance of getting iron arm, making those hammers need 4+ - 6+ to wound...

[Gentlemanloser]

Psyk-out Grenades, and the lack of Assault Grenades make his I rather moot.

 

And the Hammers could be S10, especially as Dameons don't seem to have any meaningful Psychic Defense.

[*Furyou Miko]

The truth is, Captain Al'rahem could take out a great unclean one with a little luck, then go back to his eggs and bacon.

[Excessus]

"A little" luck, yeah... ;)

 

 

And yeah, hammers are nasty, though don't they need that warp charge for the actual ID instad of hammerhand or have I forgotten some ward-rule? And besides, it's not like a walking SnP MC will be alone away from the rest of the army, it's not like he flies or so...

[Gentlemanloser]

Walking SnP just makes it easier to get the charge.

 

You can either get Hammerhand from an attached IC, or have the Squad activate Hammerhand and use a Banner to automatically activate thier Force Weapons (but that's TDA only).

 

The hammer would just be security.  Some of the Halberd/Sword hits should get a 6 to wound, then it's *poof*.  And they will mostly always go before the GUO.

 

The loss of EW is quite crippling atm.  Especially coupled with Instability and Daemonbane.

 

Edit: The GUO is only I4.  He'd die to Halberds before getitng the chance to strike.  Unless you can't roll a 6 for toffee. ;)

[Iron Sage]

Psyk-out Grenades, and the lack of Assault Grenades make his I rather moot.

 

And the Hammers could be S10, especially as Dameons don't seem to have any meaningful Psychic Defense.

Huh? No it doesn`t! You really reckon he is dying in one single turn in assault before he strikes back ?   What about the foe charging the GUO then? What about turn 2 of the battle?Read the rules I say. As for "psyk out" grenades, they are not usually spammed in every single army, now are they?

 

Writing stuff like "X sucks because it has a weakness against Y" is worse than nonsense if you care to think for a second. So the GUO has inherit weakness against poisoned attacks and Grey Knights (Grey Knights is the Big Gimmick anti daemon list so thats kind of obvious ), as well as the fact that it lacks assault grenades. Does that mean that its "bad" because of that (which is what you are implying for odd reasons that I find hard to comprehend)? No, of course not.  It just means that its, like most units in the game, weak/weaker/less strong- against certain specilized foes and attacks. This of course, is as it should be.

 

There will always be combinations where a certain strong unit can be countered by utilizing said combo/specialization (at least, as I said, that is how it should be),  but hardly does that mean that the unit is "weak". And in this case, the GUO is certainly not "weak" and if you think so, then you have  missed some vital info on the unit for sure.

[Iron Sage]

Walking SnP just makes it easier to get the charge.

You can either get Hammerhand from an attached IC, or have the Squad activate Hammerhand and use a Banner to automatically activate thier Force Weapons (but that's TDA only).

The hammer would just be security. Some of the Halberd/Sword hits should get a 6 to wound, then it's *poof*. And they will mostly always go before the GUO.

The loss of EW is quite crippling atm. Especially coupled with Instability and Daemonbane.

Edit: The GUO is only I4. He'd die to Halberds before getitng the chance to strike. Unless you can't roll a 6 for toffee.

But....seriously...You are cherry picking its greatest weakness, dont you realise? Grey Knights used to be called Daemonhunters for a reason (before Mat Ward lost himself on crack and wrote that :cussty dex).

I mean...Daemonhunters are supposed to actually be able to kill it in HtH.

I just honestly dont understand your comparison. Makes no sense to me :(

[Nehekhare]

rolling crap: can't deny 2,3,4,6 would be very, very crappy for your combo.

 

sniping heralds: barrage, precision shots, correct placement of droppodding sternguard

 

combo: just kill fateweaver, he doesn't get 2+. ground him with a quad, then autocannon/heavy bolter him dead. after that, the screamers die just as planned.

 

guardsmen comparison: totally different unit. the point is that they kill more MEQ per point (or rather that screamers don't kill much any more and thus aren't much of a thread)

 

GUO: force weapons. all grey knights wound him on 6+, only one has to hit home...

[Excessus]

Your "sniping" still mostly(except barrage, that has to deal with scatter) need to wound enough stuff to get through a lot of horrors, and then manage to get past his 2+ LOS and then a 5++.

 

Iron arm would potentially make them unable to harm him though, and I can't see anyone not taking 2-3 biomancy on a GUO.

[Iron Sage]

rolling crap: can't deny 2,3,4,6 would be very, very crappy for your combo.

 

sniping heralds: barrage, precision shots, correct placement of droppodding sternguard

 

combo: just kill fateweaver, he doesn't get 2+. ground him with a quad, then autocannon/heavy bolter him dead. after that, the screamers die just as planned.

 

guardsmen comparison: totally different unit. the point is that they kill more MEQ per point (or rather that screamers don't kill much any more and thus aren't much of a thread)

 

GUO: force weapons. all grey knights wound him on 6+, only one has to hit home...

Well, I kind of feel like adding that most codices have weaknesses against something in some other codex. Just saying...

 

IMO you simplify to a great degree. GUO for instance, will only consistently die in CC against units from one infamously overpowered codex which most people loath.

Against other codices, there can surely be for instance no arguemnt that the GUO will be stronger than its prior incarnation (just as an example, being immune to massed lasgun fire can be rather nifty).

But if you are only looking at weaknesses and not strenghts, then sure as sure, Nehekare, you will undoubtly find a lot of them.

[Nehekhare]

the weaknesses are abundant, the strengths are few and far between.

greater daemons

nurgle beasts

rending ponys

soulgrinders

GUO for example: nice and tough. ok, take biomancy: even tougher and better in CC. but how do you use him? obviously deep strike, because he ain't doing footslogging. so you need vacuum flies to deliver an icon or risk mishap. maybe he gets into CC in turn 3, kills 3-4 models. with T8-10, squads will just leave combat as per our weapons are useless and continue to shoot your squishy things. or stick krak grenades where the sun doesn't shine (fear the IG blob in CC). if there are other daemons in the same cc, the enemy will concentrate on those and make you loose combat result --> instability test.

take kugath with plague discipline, walk him into cover, shoot stuff with 2 templates/turn all the time, laugh at ranged weapons and assaults alike. pair with nurgle/cannon grinders.

[Gentlemanloser]

Huh? No it doesn`t! You really reckon he is dying in one single turn in assault before he strikes back ?

Yes.

What about the foe charging the GUO then?

Psyk-outs work on the charge only.

What about turn 2 of the battle?Read the rules I say. As for "psyk out" grenades, they are not usually spammed in every single army, now are they?

What turn 2? The GUO is dead to ID from a force weapon.

As for used in every single army, every *imperial* army can ally in a Squad of GK. And we don't care aobut Xeno's scum here, right.

Writing stuff like "X sucks because it has a weakness against Y" is worse than nonsense if you care to think for a second. So the GUO has inherit weakness against poisoned attacks and Grey Knights (Grey Knights is the Big Gimmick anti daemon list so thats kind of obvious ), as well as the fact that it lacks assault grenades. Does that mean that its "bad" because of that (which is what you are implying for odd reasons that I find hard to comprehend)? No, of course not. It just means that its, like most units in the game, weak/weaker/less strong- against certain specilized foes and attacks. This of course, is as it should be.

Not really a Deathstar candidate when a 100 point allied unit can kill it in a single turn.

There will always be combinations where a certain strong unit can be countered by utilizing said combo/specialization (at least, as I said, that is how it should be), but hardly does that mean that the unit is "weak". And in this case, the GUO is certainly not "weak" and if you think so, then you have missed some vital info on the unit for sure.

Not really specialised when *every* GK unit can do this. Bar henchmen. But they don't count.

Oh, and most other 'dexes have not only Force Weapons, but Psychic Powers to styme Assault Charges (by making them count as difficult terrain), which leads to the GUO going last, and being subject to a Force Weapon. Or other ID attack. *chop* *chop*

But....seriously...You are cherry picking its greatest weakness, dont you realise? Grey Knights used to be called Daemonhunters for a reason (before Mat Ward lost himself on crack and wrote that :cussty dex).

I mean...Daemonhunters are supposed to actually be able to kill it in HtH.

Yes, losing EW *is* it's greatest weakness. Totally agreed. Scared of a GUO, nope. I doubt anyone really should be.

I just honestly dont understand your comparison. Makes no sense to me

And I'm sorry your dex just got utterly shafted.

[the jeske]

Yeah, and I'll kindly remind him of Look Out Sir on 2+...

14 rolls from the first manticor later....

[Black_Crusader]

Huh? No it doesn`t! You really reckon he is dying in one single turn in assault before he strikes back ?

Yes.

Depends on what charged him of course, not any grey knight unit could get enough wounds to kill it. For example if you take a single strike squad with a hammer the GUO must be extremly unlucky to die in one turn. If it is a grey knight squad made for close combat then you can do it.

What about the foe charging the GUO then?

Psyk-outs work on the charge only.

>What about turn 2 of the battle?Read the rules I say. As for "psyk out" grenades, they are not usually spammed in every single army, now are they?

What turn 2? The GUO is dead to ID from a force weapon.

As for used in every single army, every *imperial* army can ally in a Squad of GK. And we don't care aobut Xeno's scum here, right.

So in your area everyone is adding a grey knight unit just in case someone pulls a daemon out from somewhere? must be tough playing daemons around there. Thank the dark gods this doesn't happen everywhere...

Writing stuff like "X sucks because it has a weakness against Y" is worse than nonsense if you care to think for a second. So the GUO has inherit weakness against poisoned attacks and Grey Knights (Grey Knights is the Big Gimmick anti daemon list so thats kind of obvious ), as well as the fact that it lacks assault grenades. Does that mean that its "bad" because of that (which is what you are implying for odd reasons that I find hard to comprehend)? No, of course not. It just means that its, like most units in the game, weak/weaker/less strong- against certain specilized foes and attacks. This of course, is as it should be.

Not really a Deathstar candidate when a 100 point allied unit can kill it in a single turn.

A 100 point unit can't kill him, you get on the charge 6 attacks (defensive grenades) that hit on 4+ and wound on 6+ with preffered enemy, you really thing that is enough with normal dice rolls to wound and kill it?

There will always be combinations where a certain strong unit can be countered by utilizing said combo/specialization (at least, as I said, that is how it should be), but hardly does that mean that the unit is "weak". And in this case, the GUO is certainly not "weak" and if you think so, then you have missed some vital info on the unit for sure.

Not really specialised when *every* GK unit can do this. Bar henchmen. But they don't count.

Oh, and most other 'dexes have not only Force Weapons, but Psychic Powers to styme Assault Charges (by making them count as difficult terrain), which leads to the GUO going last, and being subject to a Force Weapon. Or other ID attack. *chop* *chop*

It is specialised to a certain army that is called daemon hunters for a reason, again if everyone brings a couple of them with him and then some imperial guard blobs and then some psyk/infiltrate defence from space wolves and i can't think what else... come on how many allies do you have out there?

Other dexes don't have that many insta deaths, you can deal with those units with other stuff from your army, GUO or any Greater daemon don't play solo you know.

But....seriously...You are cherry picking its greatest weakness, dont you realise? Grey Knights used to be called Daemonhunters for a reason (before Mat Ward lost himself on crack and wrote that :cussty dex).

I mean...Daemonhunters are supposed to actually be able to kill it in HtH.

Yes, losing EW *is* it's greatest weakness. Totally agreed. Scared of a GUO, nope. I doubt anyone really should be.

Scared as a death star on its own no but still a respectable HQ.

Yeah, and I'll kindly remind him of Look Out Sir on 2+...

14 rolls from the first manticor later....

14 rolls from the first manticor later everything is dead... your point?

[Gentlemanloser]

 For example if you take a single strike squad with a hammer the GUO must be extremly unlucky to die in one turn.

 

 

A 100 point unit can't kill him, you get on the charge 6 attacks (defensive grenades) that hit on 4+ and wound on 6+ with preffered enemy, you really thing that is enough with normal dice rolls to wound and kill it?

 

For the life of me, can't remember if PE works on wounds, as well as to-hit.  Assuming it doesn't, a bare basic 100 point Strike Squad with 6 attacks, no hammerhand and no hammer has a 58% chance to inflict a single wound, so 39% chance (before the Psychic Test) to kill the GUO outright.

 

With a hammer on the Justicar (wounding on a 3+) that changes to 1.166 wounds, so 77.7% chance after 5++ save.

 

Not bad for 105 point unit.

 

And the GUO is actually *likely* to die, not be extremely unlucky.

 

It gets better with Terminators.

 

 

So in your area everyone is adding a grey knight unit just in case someone pulls a daemon out from somewhere? must be tough playing daemons around there. Thank the dark gods this doesn't happen everywhere...

 

No, no one in my area plays Daemons.  They won't touch the new Dex with a barge pole.

 

 

It is specialised to a certain army that is called daemon hunters for a reason

 

Yeah, PE Daemons and Daemonbane are as specialised as we get to taking out Dameons now.  So not really.  Oh and the Psilencer, which *no one* uses.

 

We're not a specialised anti-daemon army any more.

[*Furyou Miko]

OK, so your theoretically unkillable Great Unclean One comes up against a unit of Lychguard.

 

Twenty S7 AP1 I2 attacks latter and it's gone.

 

Wraiths? It might take a little while, but 3 S4 rending attacks per turn on a model with 2 wounds and a 3+ invulnerable save are going to wear you down 5++/2+FnP or no.

 

How about a unit of Sisters Dominion? Those are nice and squishy, right? I mean, everyone knows Sisters are- Oh. They have twinlinked meltaguns. Four of them. Five this turn. Uh. Oh.

 

Striking Scorpions! Those are squishy, right? I mean, Eldar assault troops that don't even have power weapons!

 

fifty S4 I5 attacks later... sure, they need sixes to wound, but...

 

Relying on big gribbly high-toughness monsters just doesn't work. Everything in this game is too fragile.

[Black_Crusader]

 

 For example if you take a single strike squad with a hammer the GUO must be extremly unlucky to die in one turn.

 

 

A 100 point unit can't kill him, you get on the charge 6 attacks (defensive grenades) that hit on 4+ and wound on 6+ with preffered enemy, you really thing that is enough with normal dice rolls to wound and kill it?

 

For the life of me, can't remember if PE works on wounds, as well as to-hit.  Assuming it doesn't, a bare basic 100 point Strike Squad with 6 attacks, no hammerhand and no hammer has a 58% chance to inflict a single wound, so 39% chance (before the Psychic Test) to kill the GUO outright.

 

With a hammer on the Justicar (wounding on a 3+) that changes to 1.166 wounds, so 77.7% chance after 5++ save.

 

Not bad for 105 point unit.

 

And the GUO is actually *likely* to die, not be extremely unlucky.

 

It gets better with Terminators.

It works on to wound as well, but once again you are taking in to account only the stat line, no upgrades, sure they are random but you have a lot of different combinations you can use to buff him. It could very well happen to get a GUO with toughness 10 and 2++ invu, extremely low chance but it is still there.

 

So in your area everyone is adding a grey knight unit just in case someone pulls a daemon out from somewhere? must be tough playing daemons around there. Thank the dark gods this doesn't happen everywhere...

 

No, no one in my area plays Daemons.  They won't touch the new Dex with a barge pole.

So how come every imperial army get a 100 point ally grey knight? they would only do that if they knew daemons are playable?

 

It is specialised to a certain army that is called daemon hunters for a reason

 

Yeah, PE Daemons and Daemonbane are as specialised as we get to taking out Dameons now.  So not really.  Oh and the Psilencer, which *no one* uses.

 

We're not a specialised anti-daemon army any more.

 

When i see the greater daemons and everything else in the dex i always think how they will look after they receive their gifts and buffs. Don't count their profiles only.

They will never be competitive because of how random they are (always where actually) but to say no one plays them because they totally suck is something i cannot and will never agree with.

Ever since 6th came out i am playing my daemons (without any flamer or screamer spam) and i always get a lot of wins against any opponent i get including Grey knights. Even get 1st or 2nd place in the local tournis.

I strongly believe that the new dex is better than the old. Of cource that is to be seen, so far i haven't made any games with it.

[Iron Sage]

OK, so your theoretically unkillable Great Unclean One comes up against a unit of Lychguard.

 

Twenty S7 AP1 I2 attacks latter and it's gone.

 

Wraiths? It might take a little while, but 3 S4 rending attacks per turn on a model with 2 wounds and a 3+ invulnerable save are going to wear you down 5++/2+FnP or no.

 

How about a unit of Sisters Dominion? Those are nice and squishy, right? I mean, everyone knows Sisters are- Oh. They have twinlinked meltaguns. Four of them. Five this turn. Uh. Oh.

 

Striking Scorpions! Those are squishy, right? I mean, Eldar assault troops that don't even have power weapons!

 

fifty S4 I5 attacks later... sure, they need sixes to wound, but...

 

Relying on big gribbly high-toughness monsters just doesn't work. Everything in this game iso too fragile.

I honestly dont think anyone would "rely" on a high-toughness monster (personally I would not rely on anything in a game of dice). What I have been saying (I have not even mentioned the word deathstar) is that it is a good HQ for its points, or at least so it seems to me. Are you really of the opinion that the greater daemons are "weak" for their points cost?