A possible daemon death star

[Gentlemanloser]

/shrug

 

I never take random buffs into account, as you can't plan for them.  As they're well, random.

 

The GUO could get a +1 to reserve rolls, and you never plan on deep striking him.

 

 

So how come every imperial army get a 100 point ally grey knight? they would only do that if they knew daemons are playable?

 

Massively missing the point, but however, yeah.  I'm sure that if Daemons were actually playable, and didn't revolve around trying to steamroll folks with Greater Daemons and Soul Grinders, that people *would* start to use GK allies.

 

If they don't already, becuase of the current abilties the GK bring.

 

 

Ever since 6th came out i am playing my daemons (without any flamer or screamer spam) and i always get a lot of wins against any opponent i get including Grey knights.

 

I'm sorry, I *can't* belive that.

 

Warp Quake on it's own was enough to make playing GKs nearly an auto win for the GK. (Pre stupid Flamer/Screamer buff ofc, which you don't use)

 

 

I strongly believe that the new dex is better than the old.

 

Maybe I've missed some hidden depths/synergies.  I looked at it once last night, and have dismissed it.  It's *that* bad a dex.

 

And really, I do feel sorry for you guys.  But I won't try to cover over the dross with gold just to make anyone feel better.

[Iron Sage]

And neither should you (cover the dross with gold etc.). You have made many good points I admit (you and Nehekare). I still very, very much get the feeling that you are missing something to say the least. It is true that lack of EW hurts and it is obviously true that Grey Knights (infamous codex for a good reason) will be quite dangerous against daemons (again, thats rather logical, albeit it doesnt hide the fact that the GK dex is over the top and frankly stupidly overpowered along with a couple of other infamous Mat Ward "works").

 

Have you looked at the troops section properly? cheap  daemonettes etc. with cheap champ with AP 2 weapon on init as an example. The psyk powers in the book are not bad either (yes...there is Tzeentch which due to Warpflame I won`t talk about, so lets not please), in particular nurgle and slanny powers are quite good.

 

The FA section of the book seems far stronger than before to my eyes at least. The flies are good. The seekers are very good for their points cost (12 point cav with outflanking and acute senses seem pretty ok to me...) Nurglings infiltrating into cover could be an irritation as well (and in particular if they infiltrate into ruins etc.) The nurgle beast are very expensive but extremly resillient. Khorne cannon I dont know, since grinder just seems better, though in a primary daemon list I guess the cannon could work if spammed.

 

HQ choices seems pretty strong to me and compares favourably to the old dex despite loss of EW I would say. Their options this time around is simply superior.

 

I dont know, I dont get why this is so ultra bad as you seem to think

[Gentlemanloser]

Becuase the troops die like flies. And once you've figured out how to deal with Soulgrinders and Greater Daemons, that's basically the threat over.

 

I'm happy the Dameons got actual Psychic Powers this time round, and not just innate gifts. It means they are *weaker* as they are now stopped by everything in the game designed to stop Psychic Powers. 'Innate' Psychic Powers were just cheese... From a design PoV.

 

And Perils effects you just like everyone else (apart form the tricksy Eldar).

 

You've had far too many nerfs. Reverting to Psychics, loss of EW, neutering of Bloodcrushers, the random randomness, Instability, etc.

 

It's all too much, and you've gained nothing much in return really.

[hornywingythingy]

Yeah, I'd have to say as someone who usually plays pyschic heavy nids, when you are relying on getting powers to keep you alive its not good, my 1500 nid list has between 14-17 biomancy rolls, and last time I got iron arm once, plus with farseers with runes of warding or rune priests with their 24" cancelling things, relying on psychics to keep a 300 point warlord alive is.... Chancy at best.

 

Tbh, if you can make it work for you, then more power to you, but I'm not convinced on the list, and I spent thursday-the weekend trying writing different lists, and I'm really unconvinced by any of them. As jeske said, guard do it better... Though, perhaps if guard are redone next year, or the year after, it might change things for our battle brothers. (don't get me wrong, I really wanted our csm to have a good working relationship with our friends from the warp, but this doesn't give that imho)

[Excessus]

 

my 1500 nid list has between 14-17 biomancy rolls

lol, and people complain that the daemons are random! :D

 

I haven't faced such a list in a long time now, but when I did I sure as **** needed to write everything down just to keep track of what model hat what powers. In comparison, daemons have far less random things...

[Smurfalypse]

 

9 S5AP2 lamprey attacks kill 3 MEQ or 2 TEQ per turn, which you have spent 225-350pts for.

 

for comparison, a guardman kills ~0.1 MEQ per turn. 30 kill 3 for only 150pts.

and i am sure that those guardman kill everything better than screamers? Or they are able to fire to their target all at once? how about killing the GUO with the guardmen or tanks? right you probably got other stuff to do that, well i don't need other stuff...

Your comparison makes no sense

Also you expect for the daemon player to roll badly, well if you do the math the chances for something to go completly wrong is low (actually is equal to rolling 1 or 2 with re roll in a single dice). The rest buffs you can probably give to the unit are just bonus to the general idea.

 

Screamers have their place, IG Blob squads have their place.

Also I would like to point our that you probably wouldnt use Lamprey's Bite on a normal unit of MEQ, you would actually use your normal attacks on the charge, adds up to "about" 4.5 kills on the charge with reroll from the Divination Primarus Power. 

 

Add in the speed in which they do things, flyover attacks the turn they deepstrike, insane movement speed and the ability to kill any vehicle in a single turn.  A comparison to an IG Blob Squad just sounds like a way to be overly negative and really comparing apples to oranges.

 

I make use of IG Blob squads quiet often as a CSM player and they do have their weaknesses, they are not end all be all of unit selection. 

[hornywingythingy]

@ excessus, yeah, now when I write my lists, I leave three lines space under each psyker for powers. Really need to make some tokens or something though, notes on tiny bits of paper look messy.

 

@ smurfapalypse, maybe seekers are a better comparison, they do seem far and away the best of the demon fa.

[Nehekhare]

what's the obsession with the guardsmen comparison?

The point was: if [anything] doesn't even kill as much as a lowly guardman, it propably isn't very good at killing things.

give the sgt meltabombs - he now also has "the ability to kill any vehicle in a single turn". doesn't mean guardsmen are overpowered, does it?

about the troops: horrors suck bad. daemonettes and bloodletters are not bad for the points, you just have to buy huge blobs to get anywhere and even then about 1/4 may get into cc, melting to bolters and lack of grenades. PBs are cheap shrouded obj grabbers.

 

the codex isn't competitive with GK/SW/IG/Cronair out there. It's also worse than CSM (which isn't great either) because it isn't as resilient and doesn't do as much damage (too dependend on cc/psi = easily evaded/shut down). ok, whatever - some people don't care about this.

but what makes the codex unplayable is the amount of random dice rolls. you take triple the time to roll all your equip and psi, then triple movement phases because of deepstriking and huge blobs, then triple the shooting phases because of warpstorm results, psitests, deny the witch, then maybe in turn 3 you reach cc, but by that time your opponent left and you have been playing with yourself in an empty shop for 2 hours.

[Excessus]

Why would shooting phases take that much longer? As a daemon player you don't have nearly as much shooting going on as other armies, and any nurgle daemons won't be running in that phase either. As one example I would think a GK shooting phase with a ton of 24" shots, massed psycannons and other things combined with rerolls from divination would take a lot longer than rolling on a chart and a few supporting shots/spells...

[Gentlemanloser]

Pick up 20 dice, roll SB to hit.

 

Or;

 

Roll Warp Storm. Get 5,6,8,9.  Roll for each effect unit.  Place Blast Maker. Scatter (or just attack for the others.  Work out wound allocation to your own units, casualties and possibly even Moral.

 

Or get snakes eyes.  Roll Instability for your entire army.

 

Etc.

[Excessus]

Yeah, like you'd only have 20 shots to fire each turn in a GK army, that's only 10 guys without psycannons...

 

And lets talk about IG with orders and barrages then...

 

 

...besides, you'd only do one of those things you listed per phase, you don't roll all the results at the same time!

[Gentlemanloser]

I pick up 20 dice per squad (ok, up to 26 with 2 different colours...) and roll as a batch. Rinse, repeat.

 

You roll 2d6, then potentially have to roll 2d6 for each of your own units (snake eyes), or a 1d6 *and* then scatters/extra attacks/etc, before working out allocating wounds and removing casualties.

 

Before you even start running/shooting/Psychic Powers.

 

I can assure you, I will take less time to do that.

[Excessus]

Mhm, of course, yeah...if you say so. Though unlike you, I have not had time to collect the empirical evidence of it myself yet...

[*Furyou Miko]

Then think about us Tz players, who have to deal with warp storm and large volumes of shooting...

[Iron Sage]

Then think about us Tz players, who have to deal with warp storm and large volumes of shooting...

shooting is a problem, but if you read the warpstorm table, then you`ll probably see that people here are...exagerating how negative it is to say the least. In a mono or dual God build, the vast, vast majority of warpstorm results is really only negative for your enemy. That having been said, I am not sure I actually LIKE it (the randomness of it, albeit I have yet to decide), but I cannot fathom why so many people seem to think it is mostly negative for daemon players when the truth is that its clearly will punish the non-daemon player far, far more.

[Smurfalypse]

what's the obsession with the guardsmen comparison?

 

The point was: if [anything] doesn't even kill as much as a lowly guardman, it propably isn't very good at killing things.

 

give the sgt meltabombs - he now also has "the ability to kill any vehicle in a single turn". doesn't mean guardsmen are overpowered, does it?

 

about the troops: horrors suck bad. daemonettes and bloodletters are not bad for the points, you just have to buy huge blobs to get anywhere and even then about 1/4 may get into cc, melting to bolters and lack of grenades. PBs are cheap shrouded obj grabbers.

 

the codex isn't competitive with GK/SW/IG/Cronair out there. It's also worse than CSM (which isn't great either) because it isn't as resilient and doesn't do as much damage (too dependend on cc/psi = easily evaded/shut down). ok, whatever - some people don't care about this.

 

but what makes the codex unplayable is the amount of random dice rolls. you take triple the time to roll all your equip and psi, then triple movement phases because of deepstriking and huge blobs, then triple the shooting phases because of warpstorm results, psitests, deny the witch, then maybe in turn 3 you reach cc, but by that time your opponent left and you have been playing with yourself in an empty shop for 2 hours.

 

Few things to this.

 

You are comparing to 5th ed codexs where "codex creep" was a massive issue to game balance. ALL of the 6th ed codexs are pretty close in balance with each other and I would expect everything in the future to follow suit. 

 

This codex is not "unplayable", that is a VERY fatuous statement. Like all codexs there are issues, but for the most part this codex (like the CSM and DA) is fairly well put together (balance wise).

 

I agree that the randomness will take some getting used too, but this can be mitigated by all sorts of things. Laminated cards (this is what I will be doing), writing it down after you roll it up. I mean these are mind blowing solutions, it does take time and getting used too, but if not remembering who has what is a generals issue with his army, then yeah that person probably needs to pick a different army. 

 

CSM codex seems to be doing very well in the tourny scene both in the US and UK, but you make a blanket statement about how weak it is. Just because something isnt easy, doesn't make it bad, but also comparing a new book to one of those codex creep books is a bad idea.

[Iron Sage]

 

what's the obsession with the guardsmen comparison?

 

The point was: if [anything] doesn't even kill as much as a lowly guardman, it propably isn't very good at killing things.

 

give the sgt meltabombs - he now also has "the ability to kill any vehicle in a single turn". doesn't mean guardsmen are overpowered, does it?

 

about the troops: horrors suck bad. daemonettes and bloodletters are not bad for the points, you just have to buy huge blobs to get anywhere and even then about 1/4 may get into cc, melting to bolters and lack of grenades. PBs are cheap shrouded obj grabbers.

 

the codex isn't competitive with GK/SW/IG/Cronair out there. It's also worse than CSM (which isn't great either) because it isn't as resilient and doesn't do as much damage (too dependend on cc/psi = easily evaded/shut down). ok, whatever - some people don't care about this.

 

but what makes the codex unplayable is the amount of random dice rolls. you take triple the time to roll all your equip and psi, then triple movement phases because of deepstriking and huge blobs, then triple the shooting phases because of warpstorm results, psitests, deny the witch, then maybe in turn 3 you reach cc, but by that time your opponent left and you have been playing with yourself in an empty shop for 2 hours.

 

Few things to this.

 

You are comparing to 5th ed codexs where "codex creep" was a massive issue to game balance. ALL of the 6th ed codexs are pretty close in balance with each other and I would expect everything in the future to follow suit. 

 

This codex is not "unplayable", that is a VERY fatuous statement. Like all codexs there are issues, but for the most part this codex (like the CSM and DA) is fairly well put together (balance wise).

 

I agree that the randomness will take some getting used too, but this can be mitigated by all sorts of things. Laminated cards (this is what I will be doing), writing it down after you roll it up. I mean these are mind blowing solutions, it does take time and getting used too, but if not remembering who has what is a generals issue with his army, then yeah that person probably needs to pick a different army. 

 

CSM codex seems to be doing very well in the tourny scene both in the US and UK, but you make a blanket statement about how weak it is. Just because something isnt easy, doesn't make it bad, but also comparing a new book to one of those codex creep books is a bad idea.

No wonder Cheatus never stood a chance. Well put!

[Nehekhare]

I just compare to the codices that are out there at this very moment. If I can play them, I can compare them. We'll see about other, yet unreleased codices and/or corresponding extrapolations...

 

"isn't great" may be blanket statement about CSM, yet it applies. Being "weak" or "not easy" aren't necessarily the reasons I had in mind when making that statement, though. But I guess your choice of words alone sais enough about that matter then.

 

"fatuous" is another such choice, merited in turn by the implacable logic of "no it's not".

 

However that may be. The random daemon mechanics seriously disrupt gameplay, which I take for bad design due to cut playtesting. That is why I called it unplayable. Take it as "unbearable to play with or against" if you will and think of playing Tyranids with maxed spore mine clusters.

[Gentlemanloser]

but if you read the warpstorm table, then you`ll probably see that people here are...exagerating how negative it is to say the least. In a mono or dual God build, the vast, vast majority of warpstorm results is really only negative for your enemy. <snip> but I cannot fathom why so many people seem to think it is mostly negative for daemon players when the truth is that its clearly will punish the non-daemon player far, far more.

 

How?

 

Again, I *can't* belive that.

 

I can't recall the exact number off the top of my head (and not having the dex at work), but 7 the average roll for 2d6 is nothing.  There are at least another two negative results for the Daemon player above that, with every result under 7 being negative.

 

At the very most, the remaining 3 results (10, 11, 12) are the only ones that impact the enemy player.

 

Making it 7 anti-daemon (2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8 & 9) to 3 pro Daemon (10, 11, 12).

 

While some of those negative ones *might* not effect your specific army, if you don't include every God, that doesn't change the weight of the table to be majoritively anti-you.

 

Sure, one result makes your enemy lose a random Psycker.  One result makes it possible you lose *your entire army*.

 

 

Though unlike you, I have not had time to collect the empirical evidence of it myself yet...

 

Snarkyness aside, I could respond by explaining the low mini count of most GK armies, due to thier high cost, elite unit design.

 

But I'll settle for the obvious and state that adding extra sub sections to your own shooting phase (namely wound allocation, casualties) can only *increase* the time you take in your own phase, before you even get to whatever shooting/running you might have wanted to do.

 

Edit: and to add to Nehekhare above, this doesn't even take into account the increased setup time from having to roll for your random wargear in front of your opponent.

 

Even with random Psychic Power rolls (which can take time in some armies), which you still have to do *as well*, the Daemon army can't even put down the list and start setting up minis.  Now, it's time to roll for all that wargear.

 

And heaven forbid you go to a tournament and *don't* have multiple individual minis to make sure the WYSIWYG wargear is all correct...

[*Furyou Miko]

From all the people saying that the warp storm table is somehow great and really hurts your opponent, I was starting to get the impression that all of the effects that smote god-specific daemons also smote enemy units. Is that then NOT the case?

[Nehekhare]

it is. 5,6,8,9 works as follows:

 

1) roll a die for EACH of your unengaged daemon-of-[specific god depending on the warpstorm result]-units

2) then roll for EACH unengaged enemy unit

3) on each 6 (re-roll for each instrument of [x] you have), apply hits/template+scatter

 

basically you imhotek the opponent and ~1/4th of your own army - but you can mitigate, so it is indeed more favorable to you.

 

regardless, it takes AGES to roll dice for nearly every unit on the table, then scatter, then wound, then saves, then morale if applicable. THEN your real shooting phase begins, where you roll psi-tests, then deny the witch, then to hit/scatter, then to wound, then saves, then morale as usual. All the while, your opponent does nothing but react to your rolls and thinks about stabbing you in the face to finally get his bathroom pause.

 

no matter whom it favours, it is a massive waste of time.

 

I guess players must have REALLY liked imhotek...

[Gentlemanloser]

Eh, missed that with God smiting numbers.

 

Still, chance to lose your entire army, versus nuking a single Psyker.

[Excessus]

Nehekhare, if you are rolling for nearly every unit on the table for one result, you will be hardly rolling for any of your own units on any of the other. Just one result at a time please(you said it more correctly the first time). 

 

Also, you only proceed to roll scatter and such on every 6th of the units you rolled for if you need to roll a 6, how many units do you usually have in your lists? How many of those end up engaged sooner or later against an assault oriented army(and thereby wont be rolled for)?

 

Will the time you spend in the chart drastically go down as the game progresses? I bet it will...

[Nehekhare]

Nehekhare, if you are rolling for nearly every unit on the table for one result, you will be hardly rolling for any of your own units on any of the other. Just one result at a time please(you said it more correctly the first time).

rolling for all daemons of x AND for each enemy unit is a single result (of which there are 4 on the table, i.e. >1/3rd).

How many daemons of x, rather than y, you field is up to your army composition. mono-god lists are statistically just as screwed as multi-god. But that is not the point - the point is superfluous dicerolling. 

 

then there are

2 (instability test for ALL of your units)

3 (3w6 LD or die for one of your HQs, randomly)

11 (same as 3 for one random enemy psyker)

12 (get 2d6+3 troops, deepstrike)

 

3 (-1 saves), 7 (nothing) and 10 (+1 saves) are the only results that work without further rolling.

 

normal battle at 1,5-2k has 5-15 units on each side, should be about 2 hits per turn.

 

now imagine this in Apocalypse...

 

btw fun fact: they do not mention any of the results in this WD's battlereport... might there be a reason for that?

[*Furyou Miko]

Everyone likes Imotekh for night fighting and generally considers the lightning to be a waste of time, since it almost never hits anything (except those fluke games where it completely dominates).