A possible daemon death star

[Excessus]

62,5% of the units is hardly "nearly every unit".

 

 

...so you roll less than 20(assuming 15 units on each side and evenly divided amongst the gods) dice and there are about 3 hits in total or so. 3 scatter rolls per turn(even if you are lucky/unlucky enough to get only those rolls every turn) that might not even hit anything, that is what will take time? Or is it rolling 20 dice?

 

You only get one of the results on the list every turn, and the above scenario is one of the most time consuming one...rolling 20 dice and 3 scatters with hardly anything else in the army shooting anything. Why is rolling on the list considered "time-consuming"? Obviously it's more time-consuming than not having it at all, but compare with using an army that actually shoots a lot instead(I know, next time I face a IG list I'll call his shooting phase with orders and stuff "time consuming" and accuse him of stalling).

 

 

...and now suddenly you bring up Apocalypse. Sure it will be a chore rolling there, but with all the different rules mechanics going on there I bet smart players will learn to handle it efficiently...it's not like the shooting phase takes long in those games for other players anyway, right?

[Nehekhare]

Obviously it's more time-consuming than not having it at all

^this.

 

apocalypse exemplifys this, since most of the rolling scales with the number of units. imagine 200 units on each side!

 

actually, daemons do a lot in the shooting phase in addition to those time-consuming rolls. psi-powers are very prevalent, which is shooting + 2 more rolls. most big guys have templates (scatter/roll). The rest will propably run (roll).

 

maybe it becomes clearer the other way round: can you think of any aspect of the rules that could possibly add more delay and/or randomizing to what already is part of C:CD?

[Gentlemanloser]

Wound allocation and saves/casualties to your own units also adds more time.

 

The current Wound allocation isn't known to be one of 6th's more, speedy, changes.

[Excessus]

Yeah, because you think horrors are so awesome, right? :D

 

Shooting with daemons will most likely be used with SGs and a few psyker powers. Stating that they would do nearly as many rolls as armies like GK/IG/Necrons or even nids in the shooting phase without the table is really stretching it by far. Running is only for non-nurgle units, so that takes care of 25% of those rolls, and apocalypse, yeah, because we were totally talking about apocalypse. I mainly play 40k, so that's what I'm talking about, though it's not like other armies shooting would be the same or less in apoc as in 40k...

 

 

Regular armies shooting: you hit, you wound, you save(lets ignore FnP and morale for now) with all your units.

 

Daemons: you roll the chart, you roll for all enemy units, you run with yours that can run(not all) or some models can shoot(definitely not all), with those few units that shoot you roll to hit, wound and save.

 

Rolling three times with all of your units seems to be more time-consuming than rolling once for all of your opponents' units and then running/shooting with yours. I think if you add up the dices after a game you'd see that the daemons are quite similar in the number of times they rolled dice in the shooting phase. I have no hard evidence of this, but that is what I think.

[*Furyou Miko]

>> Dice is a plural, you don't need to add an 's' on the end. The singular is 'Die', no matter what games workshop have been trying to tell you for the last ten years.

 

I play mono-Tzeentch. I think you'll find that yes, I like horrors quite a lot.

[Excessus]

That post was not directed at you Miko...

[Nehekhare]

@Gentlemanlooser: true! all those warpstorm table hits and instability losses would be randomly allocated, wouldn't they?!

 

@Excessus: How many dice can you hold in one hand? that is the amount of dice rolled for shooting comparable to the rolling of one die on any table, for scatter or as part of any other test. Time is not measured by number of dice, but by seconds taken to roll, check and apply the results.

[*Furyou Miko]

So because I'm not arguing with you, I'm not statistically applicable? :p

[Excessus]

So because I'm not arguing with you, I'm not statistically applicable?

I thought you were replying to my post and mistaking it to be directed at you, that's why I thought 'd clarify a bit! :)

Well, I kinda like them as well. One horror peeking out from a window and can still shoot the full amount of shots while being the only one that can die to return fire! :D

[Gentlemanloser]

 

@Gentlemanlooser: true! all those warpstorm table hits and instability losses would be randomly allocated, wouldn't they?!

 

IIRC the powers state the controlling player (or maybe even the Daemon player) assigns.  Not sure though.

 

I'm guessing you could also still LO,S! those wounds, as i didn't see mention you couldn't.  Not that that matters if you assign the wounds to your own minis, as you please.

[Nehekhare]

checked: wounds from instability tests or table results are either allocated by controlling player or as per barrage rules.

[Smurfalypse]

I just compare to the codices that are out there at this very moment. If I can play them, I can compare them. We'll see about other, yet unreleased codices and/or corresponding extrapolations...

 

"isn't great" may be blanket statement about CSM, yet it applies. Being "weak" or "not easy" aren't necessarily the reasons I had in mind when making that statement, though. But I guess your choice of words alone sais enough about that matter then.

 

"fatuous" is another such choice, merited in turn by the implacable logic of "no it's not".

 

However that may be. The random daemon mechanics seriously disrupt gameplay, which I take for bad design due to cut playtesting. That is why I called it unplayable. Take it as "unbearable to play with or against" if you will and think of playing Tyranids with maxed spore mine clusters.

 

Then start griping now about how Tau/Eldar dont stack up to GK, IG, SW and get it over with. New edition, balance changes, learn to deal with it. Codex creep has stopped (for now and hopefully for all of 6th ed).

 

CSM are actually pretty darned good, and they do very well for themselves at tourny. Especially knowing  they are having to go against the Cron/IG/SW/GK armies.

 

On the for realzy front, have played a game with the Daemons as my primary detachment (CSMs as allies) and each turn it took at most 3 minutes to resolve the warp storm effects. Took a bit longer the first two turns but then sped up as we all understood what was happening. Just saying, it doesnt take all that long. As for my random gear, I just wrote it down on a note card wasnt a huge deal. I could see more of an issue if at tourny but only with asshats who "change" what their roll was mid game or something similar, so will take some tracking your opponent in this respect (probably have him write it on the army list he gives you as you watch him roll).

 

FYI...Furies of Slannesh with a Herald of Slannesh on a mount = disgusting for their points. Think it was 280 total with the Herald and 20 Furies. My buddies had no issues or complaints about playing against them, I would assume neither would anyone else from the local gaming store we play at. They may be  "unbearable to play with or against" for you, but not for everyone and I would bet (obviously i dont know most everyone) not even the majority would complain all too much.

 

My only point is it isnt that bad and you seem to be going at it pretty hardcore for whatever reason. If it is that much of an issue with you, you can obviously play one of those armies you like much more (IG, SW, Necron, GK) and just leave the randomness to the folks who like it, I am not being sarcastic at all and I do not say this with any disrespect intended. You just seem to really dislike it and I know there is a large portion of the 40k folks who do enjoy the random (2nd edtion Orks were filled with those players) so you may be better off playing those types of things if it is that unplayable to you.

 

checked: wounds from instability tests or table results are either allocated by controlling player or as per barrage rules.

 

Yeah, it can really hurt if you get a bad scatter. Gotta take musicians with everything you have to help protect yourself and maybe hurt your opponent.

[Nehekhare]

hey, if it floats your boat, good for you.

 

I'm not yet convinced that it's not bad, although I had my moments of not that bad.

 

Nothing hardcore, more along the lines of our rumor/discussion thread over at chaos undivided. I see and interpret.

 

My reasons to not really buy into GWs new design philosophy are a different matter.

[Black_Crusader]

I think i understant what Nehekhare is trying to say but it is not because of the codex in my opinion.

In my area i enjoy playing with everyone but one person. He plays Tyranids and usually fields something like 2 tyrants, 2 tervigons, zoanthropes... you get the idea.

But it is not the army either that is the problem, it is the player himself. Playing slow as hell and trying to get the most of every single termagaunt that moves. Add to all that the fact that he complains about the dice every time his supreme strategy fails do to a good/bad out of statistic roll and you get an unplayable opponent.

 

If you learn how to play it you can make it fast. And the randomness actually adds a lot of fun in the game IMO opinion and that is all that matters in the end.

(can't remember a single time when my shook attack gun actually didn't blow up when i play my orks and i still use it. One day i will roll and hit a draigo wing with double 6s'' I swear)

[Smurfalypse]

hey, if it floats your boat, good for you.

I'm not yet convinced that it's not bad, although I had my moments of not that bad.

Nothing hardcore, more along the lines of our rumor/discussion thread over at chaos undivided. I see and interpret.

My reasons to not really buy into GWs new design philosophy are a different matter.

CSM certainly do float my boat (cept for the forced challenge, hate that crap) Should try them out!

The Bay Area Open just finished and if I read it correctly CSM had 5 in the top 20 (out of 150ish players total). One codex representing 25% of all the armies who placed in the top 20. In comparison.

Daemons - 3 (5th ed)

Space Wolves - 2

Imperial Guard - 4

CSM - 5

Dark Eldar - 1 (ouch)

Eldar - 1 (ouchies)

Tyranids - 2

Dark Angels - 3

Blood Angels - 1

Sisters of Battle - 1

Grey Knights - 1 (lol easy does not = good)

Tau - 1 (lolol same as GK)

Now I included the amount of folks that were allied. Eldar/Dark Elder were one player but allied with each other, ONE of the CSM guys was IG/CSM, the GK player was actually DA/GK, Sisters were solo.

Third place was IG/CSM, seven, ten, fifteen and eighteen were all solo CSMs. Stats dont lie, CSM do fairly well for themselves on the tourny scene. From the feel and reading the Daemon Codex I would expect about the same, maybe a little worse or maybe a little better but certainly close and that is the point of the sixth ed codexs. . . Internal balance.

**edited for poor spelling and wording**

[Nehekhare]

CSM do fairly well for themselves on the tourny scene.

I think you misunderstood my comment about not being convinced that chaos daemons are not bad ;)

 

on another, equally unrelated note: CSM doing well or bad or mediocre at tournaments isn't part of my criteria for judging anything great - otherwise every codex doing well had to be great (like 5th ed screamer/flamer daemons). blandness is.

 

why are you so hellbent to prove your personal opinion "right" anyways? I for one can live with you liking randomness...

[Smurfalypse]

CSM do fairly well for themselves on the tourny scene.

I think you misunderstood my comment about not being convinced that chaos daemons are not bad

on another, equally unrelated note: CSM doing well or bad or mediocre at tournaments isn't part of my criteria for judging anything great - otherwise every codex doing well had to be great (like 5th ed screamer/flamer daemons). blandness is.

why are you so hellbent to prove your personal opinion "right" anyways? I for one can live with you liking randomness...

My bad, I did indeed misunderstand about the CSM.

You made statements about them not being on par with GK, SW, Cron or IG and other than IG none of those is renowned for their great writing or fluff :P

Not hellbent on anything other than offering a difference of opinion. I watched all of these posts for a few days and then AFTER i read the entire Daemon Codex I started making replies (I even played a game with them as a primary detachment). No different than how you made your opinions with Iron Sage and a few others :P

Again, nothing I say is meant to be disrepectful or rude (promise ya that is not my intent). I am just offering a difference of opinion on the subject from playing a game and reading the book. The Warp Storm chart is not all that hard to deal with, the random gear is a little bit cluttered but you can get used to it with some organization, some of the units are in fact REALLY good and under estimated on paper. Those are my points which you had "opinioned" against (I like my english) for the passed few days :P

[Gentlemanloser]

ZOMG! Only 1 GK!

 

Even 'nids had 2!!!

 

Gotta mean the poor GK are an underpowered 'dex.  Buff please!

 

Probably more about list design and rock - paper - scissors if anything.  That's all 40k tournaments are now.

 

Did you meet you rock list during the Tournamet?  Nope.  Top result for you!  Met just once, middle result.  Met your rock *every* time?  Sorry, bottom of the table.

[Smurfalypse]

ZOMG! Only 1 GK!

 

Even 'nids had 2!!!

 

Gotta mean the poor GK are an underpowered 'dex.  Buff please!

 

Probably more about list design and rock - paper - scissors if anything.  That's all 40k tournaments are now.

 

Did you meet you rock list during the Tournamet?  Nope.  Top result for you!  Met just once, middle result.  Met your rock *every* time?  Sorry, bottom of the table.

 

Or perhaps dare I say, there is *gasp* skill involved in winning and losing and not just a codex being viewed by the interwebz as "overpowered".

[hornywingythingy]

^Theres also a divide between what's considered good in the us, and what's considered good in the UK, nids for example being good in the uk, less so us...

 

Wasn't the bay area open comped or something? I'm not sure, but I thought I heard something about that. (I could be wrong, I don't really follow the us scene as much as the uk scene)

 

Also, certainly the csm lists that have done very well in the uk have been spamming either heldrakes or spawn, and actually ignoring the elites section, and minimal troops.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Or perhaps dare I say, there is *gasp* skill involved in winning and
losing and not just a codex being viewed by the interwebz as
"overpowered".

 

So the represntation of 5 CSM in the top is actually more liekly due to player 'skill' (and using Helldrakes to cream everyone, as flyers are broken), rather than being pretty darn good. ;)

 

But yeah, this goes back to the whole rock - paper - scissor.  And fliers in general, Helldrakes in specific, being stupidly broken currently.

[*Furyou Miko]

Can't be too rock paper scissorsy if Sisters came 16th with a no-allies list. :p

 

(sings) Rock, paper, scissors / which one is? / It's your decision / But whichever one you chose / you're gonna live it. / Rock, paper, scissors!

[Smurfalypse]

Or perhaps dare I say, there is *gasp* skill involved in winning and

losing and not just a codex being viewed by the interwebz as

"overpowered".

So the represntation of 5 CSM in the top is actually more liekly due to player 'skill' (and using Helldrakes to cream everyone, as flyers are broken), rather than being pretty darn good.

But yeah, this goes back to the whole rock - paper - scissor. And fliers in general, Helldrakes in specific, being stupidly broken currently.

lol of course, people only win because something is "broken". . . Meaning that those CSM players faced nothing else that was "broken", like say Cron flyers, or Vendetta spam, or IG Blobs est est. They only won because they had a Heldrake :P

[Smurfalypse]

^Theres also a divide between what's considered good in the us, and what's considered good in the UK, nids for example being good in the uk, less so us...

 

Wasn't the bay area open comped or something? I'm not sure, but I thought I heard something about that. (I could be wrong, I don't really follow the us scene as much as the uk scene)

 

Also, certainly the csm lists that have done very well in the uk have been spamming either heldrakes or spawn, and actually ignoring the elites section, and minimal troops.

 

No comp scores were used there. Will paste the exact rules (I actually like comp scores :P). 

 

 

Comp and Sports

There will be no comp scores at this event. We feel that the game has an inbuilt comp system with the rulebooks and Codices. We do not feel that a second, player created level of comp is necessary. So bring whatever army you want to play!

[Nehekhare]

@Gentlemanloser: that rock-paper-scissors-theme comes up a lot lately, mostly around the horde/aircav/mech-divide. Speaks of design intent =/

 

@smurfalypse: we're cool :)

I expected CSM lists with 2+ heldrakes to do good (actually, that is one reason I don't think the dex is great), but the beast list did indeed suprise me (or rather, surprisingly attested a suspicion) - which is positive, because it inspires me to try something similar and work out tech-spawn concepts for my Iron Warriors. Still, C:CSM doesn't live up to my expectations outside of the FA choices, and the HH Legion list (albeit arguably even less powerful) offers more tools for my kind of trade.

I didn't have the privilege of getting a game in with daemons yet, and I don't particularily feel a need for it either. I mostly used the old daemons to represent dark mechancum creations and the newfound randomness doesn't really fit that theme, so until I find unexpected inspiration, I am content to enjoy further reports, interpret and discuss.