IA: Sons of Retribution V4.1MASSIVE Edit: 4/24

Captain Cirrius · March 2, 2013

IA: Sons of Retribution

The Sons of Retribution were a chapter commissioned by the High Lords of Terra in the 25th Founding to explore, secure, and defend the Parsus Sector in the Centaurus Arm of Segmentum Ultima.

The genestock of the Imperial Fists was used in the creation of the Sons of Retribution. A training cadre led by Brother-Captain Origo set out for the world of Parsus IV, which they were attracted to due to both the harsh environments of its desert wilderness, as well as it's massive walled cities, and began recruiting from this world while also establishing themselves as permanent residents their.

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Parsus IV

Name: Parsus IV
Sector: Parsus Sector
Class: Un-classified
Population: 350.0 Billion Imperial Souls

Culture: Most of the population of Parsus IV reside within thousands of massive walled cities that pockmark the surface of the planet. It was with this subculture that Origo and his men first made contact, and they were almost immediately disheartened. Given what they had come to understand of the planet's harsh weather conditions, they had hoped to find a hardy population of survivor-warriors from which to recruit. What they found were billions of people living in harmony and peace, entirely cut off from the dangers of their world by walls that extended miles into the orange sky.

Early texts from the personal journal of Origo suggest that violence within these cities had been all but erradicated. Where Origo had hoped to find warriors as the most respected of the populace, he instead found chefs, politicians, and artisans commanding immense admiration.

Then the chapter ventured into the harsh dessert wilderness. They had been told of another indiginous population on Parsus IV: wild tribes of warriors that had been deemed sub-human by the more advanced members of the population, and had been cast out into the wilderness thousands of years ago. Origo writes of his first interaction with these tribals:

"It has been one week since we emerged from the walled city of Primor, and stepped into the sands of this wilderness. Sandstorms have twice plagued this expedition to make contact with the indiginous peoples of Parsus IV. I must admit, I feared that we would never find them. I would never have believed that lesser humans could survive such storms until today.

This morning, a wall of sand blasted our power armour for hours. Our guide, who scarcely survived the weaker of the two storms, shrieked in agony as the harsh winds and sands flayed his skin from his bone. As the storm moved past, my brothers and I removed our helms and continued on our way. It was at this moment that a young man burst from beneath the sand directly in front of me, thrusting a bone dagger into my exposed neck. He shall be the first of the Sons of Retribution."

Origo goes on to describe his interaction with this particular tribe. The people possessed an understanding of low gothic and, though it took many hours, they eventually agreed to cease their attempts to kill the cadre. For the next month, Origo studied the tribe of Amyntas, the warrior that had attenpted to take his life. Their penchant for violence was as intense as the winds of the plains. No two tribes ever met without battle erupting immediately, and the victors never failed to skin the defeated, killing them in the same way as the storms would, and wearing their skin as trophies.

Conditions: The desert wilderness of Parsus IV is a very dangerous environment. It is almost entirely flat and sandstorms often roll across the planets surface (most of these storms are large enough to be seen from orbit). The cities remain protected by their high walls, which are so massive as to repel even the worst of the storms. The tribes however, have no protection, and scholars have observed instances of entire tribes being skinned alive by such storms.

Their is not a single form of major wildlife on the planet that does not count humans among its prey. Large snake-like creatures that "swim" through the sand, and many carniverous mammals constantly stalk the tribes, preying on the weak that are weeded out.

The Hall of Vengeance

In the northernmost region of Parsus IV, anomolies in the planets magnetic equilibrium have caused a wonderous phenomenon to occur. The magnetic and gravitational forces that suspend the planet in its orbit have grasped the minerals in the stone beneath the desert sands, lifting gigantic, arching columns from the planets North Pole that extend outward in all directions. Additionally, millenia of harsh sand storms have smoothed the column's surfaces, creating an a symbiotic beauty that is found nowhere else on Parsus IV.

The first humans to arrive on the planet, for whatever reason, failed to venture so far north. The tribesman, however, having been cast out of modern society thousands of years later, came upon structures and, ever since they have utilized the site as a prime warzone. It is here that tribes come to in search of battle as a way to satisfy their penchant for war.

When the Astartes ventured to the place, soon after first contact with the desert tribes, they elected it as the site of their fortress monestary. They excavated into the base of the structure, hollowing out massive halls and training centers that even extended upwards into the thick pillars, and downwards, below the sands.

When the Sons of Retribution were forced to flee their homeworld, they emptied the temples of all equipment and destroyed what remained, collapsing the natural phenomenon into the sands. It was later incinerated altogether, when Inquisitor Lord Dethias comdemned the planet as punishment to the Sons of Retribution for their treachery.

Current Condition: =][= Exterminatus ordered by the authority of Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor Lord Dethias =][=

For nearly three hundred years, the Sons of Retribution defended the Parsus Sector from various threats. Small invasions at the hands of Orks was a recurring threat, as well as a number of small uprisings in some of the surrounding planets and sectors.

At this time, a fleet spewed from the warp just to the galactic east of the Parsus sector, and immediately began invading planets at the rim of the sector. Based on distress signals, it became clear to the Sons of Retribution that the fleet had been identified as that of a Khornate waband. Chaos Cultists and well as traitor Space Marines desolated planet after after planet on the rim of the Parsus Sector before the Sons came to meet them.

The Defense of The Parsus Sector and Parsus V:

The Sons of Retribution fleet engaged the enemy as they orbited Parsus XI. Origo, who had become experience in fleet-based warfare, immediately recognized within the first hours of the engagement that the chapter was simply outmatched by the Khornate armada, and managed to escape with most of his fleet intact.

It was at this time that Origo sent a distress call to Terra, requesting aid in the form of an Inquisitorial fleet to bolster his own. Origo knew that the nearest aid was likely months away and began planning a defensive campaign to cut his losses as much as possible until reinforcments arrived. While many have branded Origo a coward for the actions of the next few months, others credit him with the survival of the chapter.

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Inquisitor Lord Dethias of the Ordo Hereticus arrived at Parsus IV with a small force of Grey Knighs bolstered by a large inquisitorial fleet, exactly eleven months after Origo's plea for aid. By this time, most of the Sons of Retribution still survived, though they had been pushed back to Parsus IV's direct neighbor, Parsus V.

*It is worth noting that, upon arrival, Dethias immediately chastized Origo for his lack of zealous fury against the heretics.

Origo agreed to temporarily relinquish command of his flagship, The Hand of Retribution, to Dethias so that he would be able to join his chapter on the surface of Parsus V in the first close engagement of the Parsus Campaign. Parsus V was a world with many large cities and, though it was much larger than Parsus IV, its population was no more than 15 Billion Imperial Souls.

Joined by the Grey Knights, and an Inquisitorial battalion, the Sons of Retribution took the fight to the servants of Chaos, led by Lord Kharak, the leader of the piratical warband, formerl of the World Eaters.

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It was at this time that the Grey Knights under Inquisitor Lord Dethias witnessed the fury of the Sons of Retribution in battle. Origo, admiring the ferocity of the tribal warriors, encouraged them to maintain their battle rituals, and the galant Grey Knights were unsettled by what they witnessed on the battlefield. The Sons of Retribution were seen skinning cultists alive on the battlefield and howling into the sky as they committed all manner of murderous acts against their foes.

It has been confirmed that, when the commander reported back to Dethias, he described the actions of the Sons of Retribution as strikingly similar to those of their Khornate enemies. Dethias, a rigid zealot, chose to confront Origo on the conduct of his chapter.

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When the chapter returned to The Hand of Retribution, having successfully repelled Kharak's warband back into the warp, Dethias, along with a retinue of Grey Knights, came to the bridge with the intention of arresting Origo under suspicion of taint. The confrontation became heated when Origo, along with his council of advisors (each of the company captains), furiously denied the Inquisitor's accusations.

It was at this moment that the Grey Knight commander placed his storm bolter to Origo's forehead and opened fire.

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The following battle escalated rapidly. The ten of Origo's advisors, led by Amyntas, engaged in combat with the ten Grey Knights of Dethias' retinue. Immediately recognizing the danger of the situation, Dethias managed to escape to his transport before the bridge was overrun with brothers of the Sons of Retribution. The Grey Knights died gruesomely, skinned and worn as trophies.

The Sons of Retribution gene-seed is originated from that of the Imperial Fists. No known genetic mutations have occured within the chapter.

Amyntas, Chapter Master of the Sons of Retribution, has developed an impressive talent in fleet-based warfare and planetary invasion. The chapter is known to utilize drop-pods extensively.

When on a battlefield or in the halls of an enemy vessel, the chapter prefers close combat above all else, closing with the foe and cutting their way through enemy ranks. This is due to the savage nature of the tribes from which the Astartes originate. Those particularly talented in long range forms of combat, however, are promoted to either Devestator or Scout Squads.

Notable Conflicts:
- The Dalkolin Defense: The Chapter's first know conflict in which they defended the world of Dalkolin (a planet just outside of the Parsus Sector) from the invasion of an unknown Ork Waagh!.
- The Parsus Campaign and Parsus V Defense: The orbital campaign against the Warband of Lord Kharak and the final defense of Parsus V.
- The Defeat of Inquisitor Dethias: The Sons' first conflict with the Imperium, as well as their first instance of fleet-based warfare. Inquisitor Dethias was captured, his force of Grey Knight exterminated, and his fleet absorbed into that of the chapter's.
- The Invasion of Initium: The Sons of Retribution's first act of invasion against the Imperium. While fleeing from inevitable repercussions of their actions, the chapter made their way to the edge of Imperial Space, where they chose to begin to liberate people from the corruption of the Imperium. Initium was the first planet they came upon with this intention. Upon first contact with the planetary government, Amyntas offered the officials a choice: Denounce the Imperium or Initium will be liberated in the name of the Emperor's Will. Horrified, the planet declared war on the chapter. The following campaign was short-lived as the PDF were inexperienced and few in number. Amyntas personally and publicly executed the Planetary Governor, as well as his family and officials. Initium became the first of what would be a long campaign of liberation that would result in the inception of a small, independant empire in the name of the Emperor.
- The Amyntian Arm Campaign: The campaign to capture a number of Imperial systems in the outer reaches of Imperial Space. The length of the campaign was only due to the number of planets taken. Each Planetary Governor was informed that his planet was being liberated. Each was given the choice to either accept the liberation or attempt to repel the chapter. Few chose the latter. The stretch of systems captured has been dubbed the Amyntian Arm, and it has become a small empire that the Sons of Retribution control in the name of the Emperor. The Imperium has not yet attempted to recapture the systems in any way.

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'Champion Volo of The Champions of Retribution

Upon his promotion to Chapter Master, Amyntas drastically reorganized the chapter to better accomodate their new role.

Since his inception into the Sons of Retribution, Amyntas held a deep inset disdain for the rigid guidelines of the Codex Astartes, finding it restricting to the full potential of Space Marines. Despite this council, Origo defending the Codex and upheld its guidelines towards chapter organization.

Amyntas has chosen to reorganize the chapter into a warband format. He, as Chapter Master, holds authority. Directly subordinate to him is his council, the Champions of Retribution.

Their are no companies in the Sons of Retribution. Rather, each new Astarte is assigned to a squad led by a member of the chapter's veterans: The Honor Guard. Amyntas knows each squads strengths and weaknesses thoroughly, and at the onset of a campaign or engagement, he or one of his champions will build a force based on the roster of squads available.

Notable Members:
- Chapter Master Origo: Original Chapter Master of the Sons of Retribution. Killed by a member of the Grey Knight in the battle against the forces of Inquisitor Lord Dethias.
-Chapter Master Amyntas: Origo's pupil and successor.
-The Champions of Retribution: Five soldiers hand picked from the ranks of the Honor Guard by the Chapter Master to be his advisors and personal guard. Their names are Champion Marculus, Champion Vindex, Champion Volo, Champion Telum, and Champion Eques.

The Sons of Retribution retain an unshakable faith in the Emperor of Mankind, and continue to fight to protect His people in any manner they deem fit. They consider the Imperium, in its essence, to be corrupt, and do not believe that the current state or behavior of the Imperium is as it would be if the Emperor himself still ruled as he once did. They believe that only through liberation from the corrupting shadow of the Imperium can its people truly benefit from the light of the Emperor.

They actively hunt the forces of Chaos (specifically the forces of Lord Kharak) across the Amyntian Arm and will readily engage xenos forces whenever they are encountered.

The chapter does not have a battle-cry, however their is a phrase that has become well known within the ranks of the chapter. Legend says that as then-Champion Amyntas flayed the skin from the bones of a Grey Knight, he uttered the words, "Sic transit gloria Imperium." This roughly translates in High Gothic to, "Thus passes the glory of the Imperium".

Messor · March 2, 2013

You seem to have left off the last in the thread title.

So what led you to Black Templars, generally avoided when founding new Chapters? There doesn't seem to be much reflection of the BT in the Sons of Retribution(though I don't have a particularly deep fluff background with them).

Do other forces have knowledge/reaction to their 'rebellion'. I see how you intend for them to be renegade, but right now it simply looks like they're a Chapter with a destroyed homeworld that does what a Chapter with a destroyed homeworld would do. Are there Imperial leaders or governments that they have struck down? What of the corruption of these? Surely they would have always looked stagnant, whether they have a homeworld or not. How do walls protect a city from sandstorms large enough to be seen from space? How do desert nomads survive something like that? You seem to have some interesting wildlife ideas, but they're just kind plugged in there. Obviously a tribe that can survive such epic storms and beasts will have some worthy recruiting stock(by the way, what do they use now?), but it'd be cool to get a better picture of HOW they survive.

What was their attachment to the homeworld, anyway? I always thought Black Templars were notoriously aloof, easily willing to put a population to the torch. Your Chapter's beliefs hinge on what happened at their homeworld, so why was it important them?

Captain Cirrius · March 2, 2013

So what led you to Black Templars, generally avoided when founding new Chapters? There doesn't seem to be much reflection of the BT in the Sons of Retribution(though I don't have a particularly deep fluff background with them).

I never understood why there had to be a strong connection between a successor chapter and its parent chapter. If this were the case, you would simply have a bunch of clones of the 1st Founding Chapters running around. I have made them fleet based (which I believe the BT are) and thought that the line "In the battle that followed, Origo displayed a great understanding of fleet-based warfare." would hint at the experience gained in his former chapter.

Do other forces have knowledge/reaction to their 'rebellion'. I see how you intend for them to be renegade, but right now it simply looks like they're a Chapter with a destroyed homeworld that does what a Chapter with a destroyed homeworld would do.

Well obviously the Inquisition in aware, though as I have said, the chapter has retreated to the outer ringes of Imperial Space. There are millions and millions (and millions) of planets in the Imperium so it could be many many years before some lowly accountant back on Terra realizes that a couple dozen tithes have stopped from a few nearly forgotten systems of no great importance.

Also, I don't mean to be condescending, but I've never heard of a Chapter losing its homeworld, murdering a Lord of the Inquisition, wiping out an attatchment of Grey Knights, and building a pirate empire of planets (while still being considered loyal).

Are there Imperial leaders or governments that they have struck down? What of the corruption of these?

Well firstly there is Inquisitor Lord Dethias, and then there is the number of planetary governors that chose to resist the liberation from the Imperium that I have mentioned in the Notable Conflicts Subsection of the Combat Doctrine Section.

How do walls protect a city from sandstorms large enough to be seen from space?

I suppose that I should emphasised the enormity of these cities and there defenses. Will fix later.

How do desert nomads survive something like that?

By being a strong, hardy people in which only the strong survive. How do the tribes on Fenris survive the EXTREME weather conditions of that world?

You seem to have some interesting wildlife ideas, but they're just kind plugged in there. Obviously a tribe that can survive such epic storms and beasts will have some worthy recruiting stock(by the way, what do they use now?), but it'd be cool to get a better picture of HOW they survive.

I agree, not enough was put into the wildlife. I will elaborate. I will answer the sub-question with another question: Would a chapter possess the ability and equipment to create a SM aboard a ship? I Suppose they would. I will add in that they now recruit from the many planets of the Amyntian Arm.

What was their attachment to the homeworld, anyway? I always thought Black Templars were notoriously aloof, easily willing to put a population to the torch. Your Chapter's beliefs hinge on what happened at their homeworld, so why was it important them?

Being that all but ten of the chapter were recruited from that world, their connection their was very great. Imagine if the Spave Wolves lost Fenris (I will emphasise this in my edit), And as to their difference to the behavior of their parent chapter, again I find it odd that people think such a strong similarity need be established.

Thank very much for your comments. This gives some things to think about :)

Messor · March 3, 2013

I never understood why there had to be a strong connection between a successor chapter and its parent chapter. If this were the case, you would simply have a bunch of clones of the 1st Founding Chapters running around. I have made them fleet based (which I believe the BT are) and thought that the line "In the battle that followed, Origo displayed a great understanding of fleet-based warfare." would hint at the experience gained in his former chapter.

Fleet based by necessity, though, not out of a decision to crusade for eternity. There is absolutely no need to have a strong connection with the parent Chapter. Feel free to diverge as drastically as you like. But the parent Chapter has a profound influence. The Sons were trained by Black Templars. Part of said training would include philosophies and ideologies of the Black Templars. The issue isn't 'Don't diverge from the parent,' but rather, 'When you diverge, reason why.' I was also just curious as to why you chose them.

Well obviously the Inquisition in aware, though as I have said, the chapter has retreated to the outer ringes of Imperial Space. There are millions and millions (and millions) of planets in the Imperium so it could be many many years before some lowly accountant back on Terra realizes that a couple dozen tithes have stopped from a few nearly forgotten systems of no great importance.

Also, I don't mean to be condescending, but I've never heard of a Chapter losing its homeworld, murdering a Lord of the Inquisition, wiping out an attatchment of Grey Knights, and building a pirate empire of planets (while still being considered loyal).

The Inquisition isn't a cohesive organization, though. Inquisitors are, for lack of a better term, free-lance. There were probably more than a few who were really happy to hear about Dethias' downfall. Unless Dethias was working for/reporting to someone who would note his absence, they can probably get away with killing him(for a while at least). It would probably depend on what kind of Inquisition forces were nearby, and how the 'treachery' was conveyed. For example, does the =I= slap Excommunicate Traitoris on them right off the bat, or try to hunt them down himself first? That's what I'm curious to know:Did Dethias unleash 'corrupt' Imperial fury on the Sons, or are they digging in, waiting for the discovery to be made. Then there's these Grey Knights. The Chapter's been whittled down by war, but still manages to clear them out. How many we talking? A retinue or a strike force? That all aside, I did miss that particular bit on my first read through. Yes, it does all scream renegade, but the matter-of-factness lacks character.

Are they humanitarian towards the worlds they liberate? Do they summarily execute those governments deemed corrupted? Did their perception of nearby governments change after the destruction of their world, or did they bee-line for fringe space too quickly to think about it?

Well firstly there is Inquisitor Lord Dethias, and then there is the number of planetary governors that chose to resist the liberation from the Imperium that I have mentioned in the Notable Conflicts Subsection of the Combat Doctrine Section.

Right but Dethias was a cause rather than effect. I mean as a result of that whole ordeal. There's a fine line between 'We'll fight the corruption of the Imperium' and 'We'll fight the Imperium'. Right now it looks more like the latter, the Sons should up in the Arm and said 'Yer liberated!', but what I expected from their noble sounding intentions was some actual judgement to be passed, to route out that corruption.

I suppose that I should emphasised the enormity of these cities and their defenses. Will fix later.

T'would be grand.

By being a strong, hardy people in which only the strong survive. How do the tribes on Fenris survive the EXTREME weather conditions of that world?

Dunno a thing about Fenris. I'm not questioning if the tribes COULD survive, I just want to know if their are particular things that help them do so. Though at this point, I'm not sure how meaningful it would be to characterize a dead people.

I agree, not enough was put into the wildlife. I will elaborate. I will answer the sub-question with another question: Would a chapter possess the ability and equipment to create a SM aboard a ship? I Suppose they would. I will add in that they now recruit from the many planets of the Amyntian Arm.

Yes, fleet based Chapters are equipped with vessels that serve as fortress monasteries, forges, and capable of preserving their gene-seed. Now considering the Chapter was previously based on a home world, you might want to consider expounding on how they get these additional ships. Dethias' fleet may have been able to add to that of the Sons, but he is unlikely to have been toting a battlebarge or forgeship(If he was, I'm fairly sure those Grey Knights would have destroyed the Sons).

Being that all but ten of the chapter were recruited from that world, their connection their was very great. Imagine if the Spave Wolves lost Fenris (I will emphasise this in my edit), And as to their difference to the behavior of their parent chapter, again I find it odd that people think such a strong similarity need be established.

This raises the question of how old are the Sons? I don't think you mentioned a founding. The Space Wolves have had Fenris since Russ pulled his naked arse out of the snow. I would add the emphasis, but if you include an example I'd go with someone younger. And again, you don't need a strong similarity, but you should want to justify a big difference. In this case I suppose it wouldn't be too hard, since they were all born there, but with Black Templar training come certain mentalities of suspicion. Like I said, I don't know a lot about them, but from what I hear, they'd just as soon cap a sergeant than countenance the idea that he might be heretical. Likewise if a world, even their own, let Chaos take hold I wouldn't be surprised if purging ensued.

Octavulg · March 3, 2013

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The genestock of the Black Templars (and therefore that of the Imperial Fists) was used in the creation of the Sons of Retribution. A training cadre led by Brother Origo set out for the world of Parsus IV, found near the center of the sector, and began recruiting from this world while also establishing themselves as permanent residents their.

There. You must come to understand the use of there/their/they're, or things will be difficult for everyone.

The Black Templars might make sense as a geneseed source. They make no sense as a training cadre. They ignore the Codex, they do whatever the hell they want, they're religious fanatics...

They're a problem. Using them as a cadre makes another problem.

Also, when was this?

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Culture: Parsus IV is the only planet in the Parsus Sector not calssified as Civilized- or Agri-.

The entire sector? Sectors are big. No Feudal worlds? No Forge Worlds? No Death worlds? Etc.

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Most of its population is divided into hundreds of massive walled cities, each isolated from the others. The Sons of Retribution, while maintaining a presence and influence in these cities, do not reside in or recruit from them. The wilderness beyond these cities is nearly entirely harsh and almost uninhabitable desert. The only humans to reside in these areas are thousands of nomadic tribes ranging in size from a few dozen, to many thousand members. It is from these tribes that the Sons of Retribution began recruiting their initiates.

Hive worlds are usually quite concentrated - there'll be a couple of dozen massive cities, tops. Hundreds would be...weird. Hell, hundreds could be cities of a billion or less, which is getting quite un-Hive-like.

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Conditions: The desert wilderness of Parsus IV is a very dangerous environment. It is almost entirely flat and sandstorms often roll across the planets surface (most of these storms are large enough to be seen from orbit). Their is not a single form of major wildlife on the planet that does not count humans among its prey. Large snake-like creatures that "swim" through the sand. And many carniverous mammals constantly stalk the tribes, preying on the weak that are weeded out.

What tribes? More details on that. The amount of details on the wild-life is fine as-is - it's the people who need a bit more expansion.

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At this time, a large uprising occured in a city-state of Gehenna on Parsus IV. A band of heretics overthrew the local city government and began preaching of the Ruinous Powers to the cities population. Before long, the city was entirely populated populated by millions of cultists, who kept attempts to retake city at bay with their high walls, defensive forces, and anti-aircraft weaponry.

*Blink blink*

They rebelled on a chapter home world and couldn't be put down? That's what bombardment cannons are FOR.

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When the rebellion finally did burst from the gates of the city, demons and traitor space marines could be found in the hordes of cultists. The Sons of Retribution mounted a long campaign from their Fortress Monestary in the wilderness, as well as the planets capital city of Primor. Despite the chapter's efforts, the taint of Chaos continued to spread to more and more city-states and soon fully half of the planets 350 billion people had taken up arms with the traitors. The Sons of Retribution untilized mandatory militia and local PDF in an attempt to counter the growing number of enemy combatants, but soon the chapter was forced to fall back to their fleet in orbit, abandoning their fortress monestary, but taking as many imperial citizens and nomadic tribes as possible.

How the hell did Chaos Space Marines get there? Why weren't they already trying to put down the rebellion? Why haven't they nuked these people yet?

A Space Marine fleet probably can't hold that many civilians, really. They're big ships, but not that big.

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From their fleet in orbit, the Sons of Retribution, cut down to roughly half strength, began organizing a massive counter-attack. It was at this time, however, that the Inquisition made an appearance in the form of Inquisitor Dethias and a force of Grey Knights. Dethias, claiming to speak for High Lord of Terra, took command of the chapter from Chapter Master Origo. Within two weeks, Dethias declared Parsus IV lost and commanded Exterminatus on it and a number of surrounding planets in the sector. Origo and his Advisors argued that the planet could still be retaken as roughly half the population remained loyal to the Imperium.

500 Space Marines is huge losses. Inquisitors can't do that (the take command of the chapter bit, that is). Well, they might be able to try, but I don't see why the Chapter Master would feel obligated to go along with it. Indeed, since this is their home world, it's basically an internal concern.

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Despite this, Parsus IV, along with nearly 170 billion Imperial Souls, were destroyed within the week. Dethias gave Origo the chapter's new orders before departing with his force of Grey Knights.

If they've got a bunch of Grey Knights, half a chapter and half the population, they should be able to win.

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Upon learning of the "betrayal" of the Sons of Retribution, Inquisitor Dethias wheeled his forces -around and set them in pursuit of the Sons' fleet.

...Who told him?

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The Sons of Retribution gene-seed is originated from that of Imperial Fists/Black Templars.

The idea of a former Black Templar being uncomfortable with Exterminatus is just incomprehensible to me. The Black Templars love to purge.

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The chapter does not have a battle-cry, however their is a phrase that has become well known within the ranks of the chapter. Legend says that as then-Champion Amyntas watched his homeworld burn, he uttered the words, "Sit transit gloria Caelum." This roughly translates in High Gothic to, "Thus passes the glory of Heaven" in reference to the Imperium.

Sic, not Sit. Also, I don't think the Imperium has a concept of heaven. Sic transit gloria Imperium would be the obvious phrase, IMO.

* * *

I'm not really getting a feel for what the chapter's like - who they are. Also, the "object to something, betray the Imperium while staying loyal to its people" schtick is a rather worn one, and you're not really doing anything to separate yourself from the pack with it. Which you may be OK with, of course.

What do you want out of these guys? Anything in particular?

Captain Cirrius · March 3, 2013

@Messor:

Fleet based by necessity, though, not out of a decision to crusade for eternity. There is absolutely no need to have a strong connection with the parent Chapter. Feel free to diverge as drastically as you like. But the parent Chapter has a profound influence. The Sons were trained by Black Templars. Part of said training would include philosophies and ideologies of the Black Templars. The issue isn't 'Don't diverge from the parent,' but rather, 'When you diverge, reason why.' I was also just curious as to why you chose them

My fluff knowledge is quite shaky lol, so I was just looking for a chapter that would offer the least amounts of problems (I was obviously incorrect in chosing Templars). I have decided to make them direct descendants of the Imperial Fists if this is possible, as I feel it fits better with their original combat doctrine.

The Inquisition isn't a cohesive organization, though. Inquisitors are, for lack of a better term, free-lance. There were probably more than a few who were really happy to hear about Dethias' downfall. Unless Dethias was working for/reporting to someone who would note his absence, they can probably get away with killing him(for a while at least). It would probably depend on what kind of Inquisition forces were nearby, and how the 'treachery' was conveyed. For example, does the =I= slap Excommunicate Traitoris on them right off the bat, or try to hunt them down himself first? That's what I'm curious to know:Did Dethias unleash 'corrupt' Imperial fury on the Sons, or are they digging in, waiting for the discovery to be made. Then there's these Grey Knights. The Chapter's been whittled down by war, but still manages to clear them out. How many we talking? A retinue or a strike force? That all aside, I did miss that particular bit on my first read through. Yes, it does all scream renegade, but the matter-of-factness lacks character

Yes, I tried to imply that Dethias was their on behalf of one of the High Lords that commissioned the chapter. In pursuing them himself, he obviously attempts to hunt them himself first, thinking that there was a possibility of destroying them himself.

As for the Grey Knights, I should have specified that they are a fairly small force, perhaps 50 at best, just to acompany/protect Dethias. Easily enough for the Chapter to defeat in the later fleet-conflict, but not nearly enough to make a dent in a force of 170 billion cultists bolstered demons and CSM.

Are they humanitarian towards the worlds they liberate? Do they summarily execute those governments deemed corrupted? Did their perception of nearby governments change after the destruction of their world, or did they bee-line for fringe space too quickly to think about it?

I will explore this in my edit. I want them to conveyed as a group who's actions could be conveyed as both pure and..well... not so pure. They will publically execute a "corrupt" official in front of his subjects, but they percieve this as an act of liberation for the innocent. They require no tithes and allow those they liberate to live free, almost a William Wallace mentality, if you will.

Right but Dethias was a cause rather than effect. I mean as a result of that whole ordeal. There's a fine line between 'We'll fight the corruption of the Imperium' and 'We'll fight the Imperium'. Right now it looks more like the latter, the Sons should up in the Arm and said 'Yer liberated!', but what I expected from their noble sounding intentions was some actual judgement to be passed, to route out that corruption

I suppose this depends on how you view the Imperium. If the Imperium is every Imperial citizen, then no they are not saying, "We'll fight the Imperium" but if the Imperium is viewed as an idea, then yes, they are fighting the Imperium itself., or rather what it has become.

Dunno a thing about Fenris. I'm not questioning if the tribes COULD survive, I just want to know if their are particular things that help them do so. Though at this point, I'm not sure how meaningful it would be to characterize a dead people.

This will be expanded in the edit.

Yes, fleet based Chapters are equipped with vessels that serve as fortress monasteries, forges, and capable of preserving their gene-seed. Now considering the Chapter was previously based on a home world, you might want to consider expounding on how they get these additional ships. Dethias' fleet may have been able to add to that of the Sons, but he is unlikely to have been toting a battlebarge or forgeship(If he was, I'm fairly sure those Grey Knights would have destroyed the Sons).

Then I will edit it to say that the chapter now recruits from worthy worlds in the Amyntian Arm. As for the additional ships, the chapter was never assigned an actual homeworld, they found it themselves. With this in mind, I think it is justified that they were initially assigned a battle ready fleet (if this is generally contested, I will change it but for now I think it will stay).

***

I also want to emphasize, that although I have debated a few of your points, this C&C is EXTREMELY appreciated! Thank-you for taking the time to read this IA. And I apologize if at any point I come off as condescending, it is not my intention :)

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@Octavulg:

There. You must come to understand the use of there/their/they're, or things will be difficult for everyone.

Apologies, it was a late night write. Grammar mistakes will be corrected in my edit.

The Black Templars might make sense as a geneseed source. They make no sense as a training cadre. They ignore the Codex, they do whatever the hell they want, they're religious fanatics...

They're a problem. Using them as a cadre makes another problem.

The idea of a former Black Templar being uncomfortable with Exterminatus is just incomprehensible to me. The Black Templars love to purge.

I have decided to make them direct successors of the Imperial Fists, if it would make more sense.

Also, when was this?

My knowledge of timelines and foundings is not very extenssive. Could you perhaps suggest a founding/time period that you think would be appropriate? I would prefer to have the chapter be fairly young at the time of the destruction of Parsus IV

The entire sector? Sectors are big. No Feudal worlds? No Forge Worlds? No Death worlds? Etc

Will give this some thought and edit it. What I was trying to do was establish Parsus IV as the obvious planet to recruit from/establish as their homeworld.

Hive worlds are usually quite concentrated - there'll be a couple of dozen massive cities, tops. Hundreds would be...weird. Hell, hundreds could be cities of a billion or less, which is getting quite un-Hive-like.

This is closer to how I described the world in my first two versions. I was not sure which was more correct, so I changed it to more smaller sized cities, but I do prefer it as you have described so this will as well be changed :)

What tribes? More details on that. The amount of details on the wild-life is fine as-is - it's the people who need a bit more expansion.

Will expand on the tribes themselves.

*Blink blink*

They rebelled on a chapter home world and couldn't be put down? That's what bombardment cannons are FOR

I foresaw this issue while writing. Would it be a plausible solution to send the chapter away on a dire mission? While the planet was left largely unattended, an uprising ocurred, and by the time the Sons returned, the rebellion was too large to quell?

How the hell did Chaos Space Marines get there? Why weren't they already trying to put down the rebellion? Why haven't they nuked these people yet?

A Space Marine fleet probably can't hold that many civilians, really. They're big ships, but not that big.

It has been demenstrated in both Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine (the videogame) as well in BL books (if I remember correctly), that both demons and chaos space marines can be summoned through warp gates that are opened through rituals. I assumed it was implied that the reason the rebellion stayed holed up in the city for a time was because they were performing these rituals. I will specify in the edit.

500 Space Marines is huge losses. Inquisitors can't do that (the take command of the chapter bit, that is). Well, they might be able to try, but I don't see why the Chapter Master would feel obligated to go along with it. Indeed, since this is their home world, it's basically an internal concern.

As I mentioned to Messor, I attempted to imply that Inquisitor Lord Dethias was sent on behalf of a High Lord on Terra, and carried this official's authority. I would think a Chapter Master (especially one of a fairly young chapter) would have no choice but to bend to such authority. And since the Chapter was commissioned by these High Lords for the reason of defending this sector, I would think that, in their eyes, the Sons had failed and intervention was necessary. While it is the chapter's homeworld, it still belongs to the Imperium.

As for the huge losses, I felt this was necessary both for the Inquisitor to feel the need to take command, as well as for a justification for the chapter to function as one large warband after these incidents.

If they've got a bunch of Grey Knights, half a chapter and half the population, they should be able to win.

I am going to take the part about the loyal civilians joining in the fight out of the equation. Also, I will specify that the number of grey knights is fairly small, just a small detatchment to accompany/protect Dethias. But still, 500 SM + some 50 odd GK against 170 BILLION cultists that are bolstered by demons and CSM...Not a fight they can win lol

...Who told him?

Fair point. Will find a justification for this in my edit.

Sic, not Sit. Also, I don't think the Imperium has a concept of heaven. Sic transit gloria Imperium would be the obvious phrase, IMO.

Thank-you. This will be changed.

I'm not really getting a feel for what the chapter's like - who they are. Also, the "object to something, betray the Imperium while staying loyal to its people" schtick is a rather worn one, and you're not really doing anything to separate yourself from the pack with it. Which you may be OK with, of course.

What do you want out of these guys? Anything in particular?

Honestly this has been an idea of mine since I started the hobby in 5th Grade nearly ten years ago, and I've written an IA I think about once every two years for the last six. So I think I'm just going to stick with schtick :P

I basically just want to finally finish the background on this chapter in a way that makes sense and is interetsing so that I have an image as I build the army. Your help is VERY MUCH appreciated.

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Alright, I'm going to get started with the edit now, so if the changes aren't in place when you read this, it probably just means I'm still working on it :) Thank-you for the C&C!!!

Messor · March 3, 2013

My fluff knowledge is quite shaky lol, so I was just looking for a chapter that would offer the least amounts of problems (I was obviously incorrect in chosing Templars). I have decided to make them direct descendants of the Imperial Fists if this is possible, as I feel it fits better with their original combat doctrine.

That works much much better, and you can keep the obnoxious stubbornness/defensiveness that would upset them at losing their homeworld. It helps that the Fists have ideals regarding homeworlds, unlike the BT who are fleet based.

Yes, I tried to imply that Dethias was their on behalf of one of the High Lords that commissioned the chapter. In pursuing them himself, he obviously attempts to hunt them himself first, thinking that there was a possibility of destroying them himself.

As for the Grey Knights, I should have specified that they are a fairly small force, perhaps 50 at best, just to acompany/protect Dethias. Easily enough for the Chapter to defeat in the later fleet-conflict, but not nearly enough to make a dent in a force of 170 billion cultists bolstered demons and CSM.

I'm on the fence here. Part of me says sure, a Chapter homeworld is falling, Terra calls in support. The other part says that was a really quick reaction...or it sounds like one. If you're going to lose half the Chapter, throw in something that establishes this as lengthy war, giving time for a message to make it up the chain of command to an Inquisitor. I also think it would help if Dethias is acting on his own, but in true Inquisitorial style, is throwing about weight of authority and claiming to have the sanction of Terra(technically he does, just by dint of being an Inquisitor). Reasonable number for the Grey Knights, as well.

I will explore this in my edit. I want them to conveyed as a group who's actions could be conveyed as both pure and..well... not so pure. They will publically execute a "corrupt" official in front of his subjects, but they percieve this as an act of liberation for the innocent. They require no tithes and allow those they liberate to live free, almost a William Wallace mentality, if you will.

I dig.

I suppose this depends on how you view the Imperium. If the Imperium is every Imperial citizen, then no they are not saying, "We'll fight the Imperium" but if the Imperium is viewed as an idea, then yes, they are fighting the Imperium itself., or rather what it has become.

This may be something to explore in their beliefs. They say, and believe that they are cleansing the corruption that plagues the Emperor's children, but in reality, it amounts to pseudo-piracy/empire building.

Then I will edit it to say that the chapter now recruits from worthy worlds in the Amyntian Arm. As for the additional ships, the chapter was never assigned an actual homeworld, they found it themselves. With this in mind, I think it is justified that they were initially assigned a battle ready fleet (if this is generally contested, I will change it but for now I think it will stay).

So sort of originally fleet based, settled, and now fleet based once more. I can buy that. Though in the interest of making the uprising impactful, consider including a Fortress Monastery on the homeworld to be destroyed, forcing them to make use of a long ago decomissioned forge ship. Battle-barges it makes sense to still have in use, and one can quickly become the Monastery.

I also want to emphasize, that although I have debated a few of your points, this C&C is EXTREMELY appreciated! Thank-you for taking the time to read this IA. And I apologize if at any point I come off as condescending, it is not my intention

Don't worry, you haven't. Honestly, if you made no attempt to defend your article I probably would not continue to critique it. Debate is good.

My knowledge of timelines and foundings is not very extenssive. Could you perhaps suggest a founding/time period that you think would be appropriate? I would prefer to have the chapter be fairly young at the time of the destruction of Parsus IV

26th was the latest founding, happening about 300-ish years before the first encounters with the Tau and Tyranid and the 'present' day. Before that, the 25th founding, Octavulg can probably give you a better idea, he actually made a timeline for the foundings in the DIY resources. If I were to guess, I'd say some 3-400 years before that. I think both give ample time for your events, though the 25th give more leeway for a long war at the homeworld, as well an established 'empire' in the Arm, and maybe time for some Imperial reaction/retaliation.

Will give this some thought and edit it. What I was trying to do was establish Parsus IV as the obvious planet to recruit from/establish as their homeworld.

Meh, nothing wrong with having options. Parsus would seem like an obvious choice simply for having the hardiest stock of recruits. Deathworld does not always equal best recruits.

I foresaw this issue while writing. Would it be a plausible solution to send the chapter away on a dire mission? While the planet was left largely unattended, an uprising ocurred, and by the time the Sons returned, the rebellion was too large to quell?

Try to find another way. Perhaps the majority of the PDF forces sided with Chaos, leaving of course defenseless civilians. You may have half a population that hasn't turned, but they can't do anything, and defending them is probably costing more than you can gain.

It has been demenstrated in both Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine (the videogame) as well in BL books (if I remember correctly), that both demons and chaos space marines can be summoned through warp gates that are opened through rituals. I assumed it was implied that the reason the rebellion stayed holed up in the city for a time was because they were performing these rituals. I will specify in the edit.

Yeah, I also assumed that a sudden turning to chaos by a large population(insidious chaos cult?) would be accompanied by much chanting and writhing and opening of portals to let in demons and CSM.

As I mentioned to Messor, I attempted to imply that Inquisitor Lord Dethias was sent on behalf of a High Lord on Terra, and carried this official's authority. I would think a Chapter Master (especially one of a fairly young chapter) would have no choice but to bend to such authority. And since the Chapter was commissioned by these High Lords for the reason of defending this sector, I would think that, in their eyes, the Sons had failed and intervention was necessary. While it is the chapter's homeworld, it still belongs to the Imperium.

As for the huge losses, I felt this was necessary both for the Inquisitor to feel the need to take command, as well as for a justification for the chapter to function as one large warband after these incidents.

You can still accomplish what you want without Dethias trying to assume command of the Chapter. All he has to do to muck things up is some disastrous redeployment of remaining loyal PDF, and be generally uncooperative, presumably because 'its just easier to exterminatus'.

I am going to take the part about the loyal civilians joining in the fight out of the equation. Also, I will specify that the number of grey knights is fairly small, just a small detatchment to accompany/protect Dethias. But still, 500 SM + some 50 odd GK against 170 BILLION cultists that are bolstered by demons and CSM...Not a fight they can win lol

Good idea. Consider(may not be necessary, but consider) sacrificing some Chapter command elements/armory/veteran company/mix of the above, to further hamper their chances. Though in the end, the Sons believe the planet can be saved(Don't they always *looks at Alpha Hounds*). You can leave it ambiguous as to whether or not it really can, but again, the greater impact might be that it CAN and the Inquisitor is just fresh out of to give.

Captain Cirrius · March 3, 2013

@Messor

I'm on the fence here. Part of me says sure, a Chapter homeworld is falling, Terra calls in support. The other part says that was a really quick reaction...or it sounds like one. If you're going to lose half the Chapter, throw in something that establishes this as lengthy war, giving time for a message to make it up the chain of command to an Inquisitor. I also think it would help if Dethias is acting on his own, but in true Inquisitorial style, is throwing about weight of authority and claiming to have the sanction of Terra(technically he does, just by dint of being an Inquisitor). Reasonable number for the Grey Knights, as well.

You can still accomplish what you want without Dethias trying to assume command of the Chapter. All he has to do to muck things up is some disastrous redeployment of remaining loyal PDF, and be generally uncooperative, presumably because 'its just easier to exterminatus'.

These two comment gave me bit of inspiration. What do you think of the idea that, rather than taking control of the chapter, Dethias shows up claiming authority? This begins a "my jurisdiction" conflict within the Imperial forces in the war, thus making Dethias' final actions even more treacherous, as his authority to carry them out is in question (or at least it is percieved as such by Origo and the chapter).

So sort of originally fleet based, settled, and now fleet based once more. I can buy that. Though in the interest of making the uprising impactful, consider including a Fortress Monastery on the homeworld to be destroyed, forcing them to make use of a long ago decomissioned forge ship. Battle-barges it makes sense to still have in use, and one can quickly become the Monastery

I have little knowledge of ship classifications. What would a intentionally fleet-based chapter be issued upon it's founding ship-wise?

26th was the latest founding, happening about 300-ish years before the first encounters with the Tau and Tyranid and the 'present' day. Before that, the 25th founding,Octavulg can probably give you a better idea, he actually made a timeline for the foundings in the DIY resources. If I were to guess, I'd say some 3-400 years before that. I think both give ample time for your events, though the 25th give more leeway for a long war at the homeworld, as well an established 'empire' in the Arm, and maybe time for some Imperial reaction/retaliation.

So it sounds like 25th is my best bet. I will wait to see if Octavulg ways in before making a final decision, but 25th seems good :)

Meh, nothing wrong with having options. Parsus would seem like an obvious choice simply for having the hardiest stock of recruits. Deathworld does not always equal best recruits.

Thats true. Could it also be justified that, since the original training cadre were IFs, they were attracted to the HUGE Hive-cities of Parsus IV.

Try to find another way. Perhaps the majority of the PDF forces sided with Chaos, leaving of course defenseless civilians. You may have half a population that hasn't turned, but they can't do anything, and defending them is probably costing more than you can gain.

This is the main problem with my IA. No matter what I say, someone can counter it with "Well the Sons could have just blown up the whole city." I need to find a way to justify giving the rebellion time to grow within the original city without being immediately destroyed.

Good idea. Consider(may not be necessary, but consider) sacrificing some Chapter command elements/armory/veteran company/mix of the above, to further hamper their chances. Though in the end, the Sons believe the planet can be saved(Don't they always *looks at Alpha Hounds*). You can leave it ambiguous as to whether or not it really can, but again, the greater impact might be that it CAN and the Inquisitor is just fresh out of to give.

I actually plan to go into MUCH greater detail on the war itself, as it is the defining conflict of the chapter. How long would a campaign of such magnitude last. Are we talking years, decades, or even centuries??? If the Sons had been fighting for a long time when Dethias shows up, and decides to blow every up after only a short while, that could be another motivator of the chapters anger.

Messor · March 3, 2013

These two comment gave me bit of inspiration. What do you think of the idea that, rather than taking control of the chapter, Dethias shows up claiming authority? This begins a "my jurisdiction" conflict within the Imperial forces in the war, thus making Dethias' final actions even more treacherous, as his authority to carry them out is in question (or at least it is percieved as such by Origo and the chapter).

That could certainly work.

I have little knowledge of ship classifications. What would a intentionally fleet-based chapter be issued upon it's founding ship-wise?

The forge ship is the only vessel I know of that would be reserved for a fleet-based Chapter. They're also more likely to have multiple battle barges. I can only assume that the Apothecarion does things like impantation in the fortress monastery, or monastery barge in the case of fleet-based. A planetary fortress will be equipped with the necessary forge facilities to maintain an armory.

Thats true. Could it also be justified that, since the original training cadre were IFs, they were attracted to the HUGE Hive-cities of Parsus IV.

Giant walls? What's an IF not to like? It would also add to dragging out the rebellion that the cities are so defensible.

This is the main problem with my IA. No matter what I say, someone can counter it with "Well the Sons could have just blown up the whole city." I need to find a way to justify giving the rebellion time to grow within the original city without being immediately destroyed.

I don't think that's the IF way, not if they think they can save the planet. They're masochistic enough as it is without nuking a planet on their conscience. Maybe if it weren't their homeworld. But it is.

I actually plan to go into MUCH greater detail on the war itself, as it is the defining conflict of the chapter. How long would a campaign of such magnitude last. Are we talking years, decades, or even centuries??? If the Sons had been fighting for a long time when Dethias shows up, and decides to blow every up after only a short while, that could be another motivator of the chapters anger.

A long time. I'd lean with decades minimum, a century max. In order to guarantee that the Sons don't lose their patience and nuke everything, you'll need some times when victory is just right there, but something happens that snatches it away and drags the war on.

Captain Cirrius · March 3, 2013

These two comment gave me bit of inspiration. What do you think of the idea that, rather than taking control of the chapter, Dethias shows up claiming authority? This begins a "my jurisdiction" conflict within the Imperial forces in the war, thus making Dethias' final actions even more treacherous, as his authority to carry them out is in question (or at least it is percieved as such by Origo and the chapter).
That could certainly work.

>I have little knowledge of ship classifications. What would a intentionally fleet-based chapter be issued upon it's founding ship-wise?
The forge ship is the only vessel I know of that would be reserved for a fleet-based Chapter. They're also more likely to have multiple battle barges. I can only assume that the Apothecarion does things like impantation in the fortress monastery, or monastery barge in the case of fleet-based. A planetary fortress will be equipped with the necessary forge facilities to maintain an armory.

Thats true. Could it also be justified that, since the original training cadre were IFs, they were attracted to the HUGE Hive-cities of Parsus IV.
Giant walls? What's an IF not to like? It would also add to dragging out the rebellion that the cities are so defensible.

This is the main problem with my IA. No matter what I say, someone can counter it with "Well the Sons could have just blown up the whole city." I need to find a way to justify giving the rebellion time to grow within the original city without being immediately destroyed.
I don't think that's the IF way, not if they think they can save the planet. They're masochistic enough as it is without nuking a planet on their conscience. Maybe if it weren't their homeworld. But it is.

I actually plan to go into MUCH greater detail on the war itself, as it is the defining conflict of the chapter. How long would a campaign of such magnitude last. Are we talking years, decades, or even centuries??? If the Sons had been fighting for a long time when Dethias shows up, and decides to blow every up after only a short while, that could be another motivator of the chapters anger.
A long time. I'd lean with decades minimum, a century max. In order to guarantee that the Sons don't lose their patience and nuke everything, you'll need some times when victory is just right there, but something happens that snatches it away and drags the war on.

Ok I think its time to start my edit. I'm currently updating my project logs (links in my sig) and then I will begin the first edit of this IA. Thank you very much Messor and Octavulg!!!

Captain Cirrius · March 4, 2013

I have just edited the article, adding extensively to the Homeworld, Later History, Combat Doctrine (Subsection: Notable Conflicts), Organisation, and Beliefs sections. Please let me know if you think I have added anything that I should have or if I need further improvement.

Messor · March 4, 2013

At first glance, only thing sticking out to me is a numbers issue. You've tallied 170 billion loyalist and 170 billion heretics on the planet, I'd tip the balance one way or the other. I know its rounded, but even 150/60 billion looks less 50/50 "clean".

edit: Blast, there goes my 666th post.

Captain Cirrius · March 4, 2013

At first glance, only thing sticking out to me is a numbers issue. You've tallied 170 billion loyalist and 170 billion heretics on the planet, I'd tip the balance one way or the other. I know its rounded, but even 150/60 billion looks less 50/50 "clean".

Yeah I just realized that making it so rounded hurts more than helps. Will jot this down for my next edit. Thanks :)

Captain Cirrius · March 4, 2013

Ok I had a thought and wanted to run it by you guys. Now that I have made the tribes a more permanent extension of the warband, would it be worth it to integrate a theme of the culture of the Tribes seeping into the way chapter conducts itself? I've just read Firepower's IA: Broken Arrow and I love the way that he makes the combat doctrine and culture of the natives transfer over to that of the chapter (I've seen this elsewhere i.e. SW, I'm just using Broken Arrow as an example).

My question is, in my case would doing this help strengthen the image of my chapter or distract from their beliefs/goals (which is sort of the main theme, I suppose)?

Captain Cirrius · March 5, 2013

ok sorry for the triple post. Have made another edit. Involves the induction Rectio's Regiment (I mostly inserted this as a substitute for MoTW as I use SW rules for this army in game). I these changes can be found in the Organisation Section, Notable Members Subsection and 'Master Chaplain Rectio' sidebar.

Now my understanding of geneseed isnt very extenssive so if this directly violates established fluff, let me know and i will edit it to fit better

Octavulg · March 6, 2013

My knowledge of timelines and foundings is not very extenssive. Could you perhaps suggest a founding/time period that you think would be appropriate? I would prefer to have the chapter be fairly young at the time of the destruction of Parsus IV

Somewhere around here is a post by me with a massive timeline. Find it, read it, be enlightened.

I foresaw this issue while writing. Would it be a plausible solution to send the chapter away on a dire mission? While the planet was left largely unattended, an uprising ocurred, and by the time the Sons returned, the rebellion was too large to quell?

It'd make sense for some of the chapter to be away. Not necessarily all. Though if there was a Black Crusade or something, that could draw them away.

It has been demenstrated in both Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine (the videogame) as well in BL books (if I remember correctly), that both demons and chaos space marines can be summoned through warp gates that are opened through rituals. I assumed it was implied that the reason the rebellion stayed holed up in the city for a time was because they were performing these rituals. I will specify in the edit.

Ah! Wasn't sure we'd ever seen Chaos Space Marines go through Warp Gates.

As I mentioned to Messor, I attempted to imply that Inquisitor Lord Dethias was sent on behalf of a High Lord on Terra, and carried this official's authority. I would think a Chapter Master (especially one of a fairly young chapter) would have no choice but to bend to such authority. And since the Chapter was commissioned by these High Lords for the reason of defending this sector, I would think that, in their eyes, the Sons had failed and intervention was necessary. While it is the chapter's homeworld, it still belongs to the Imperium.

Why would a High Lord send him? To deal with this? The High Lords wouldn't be likely to have heard yet, I would think.

I am going to take the part about the loyal civilians joining in the fight out of the equation. Also, I will specify that the number of grey knights is fairly small, just a small detatchment to accompany/protect Dethias. But still, 500 SM + some 50 odd GK against 170 BILLION cultists that are bolstered by demons and CSM...Not a fight they can win lol

Orbital bombardment is a magnificent equalizer.

I basically just want to finally finish the background on this chapter in a way that makes sense and is interetsing so that I have an image as I build the army. Your help is VERY MUCH appreciated.

But what do you want them to be like? What kind of people/marines? Any influences or themes or shiny concepts you like you want to work in?

Ok I had a thought and wanted to run it by you guys. Now that I have made the tribes a more permanent extension of the warband, would it be worth it to integrate a theme of the culture of the Tribes seeping into the way chapter conducts itself? I've just read Firepower's IA: Broken Arrow and I love the way that he makes the combat doctrine and culture of the natives transfer over to that of the chapter (I've seen this elsewhere i.e. SW, I'm just using Broken Arrow as an example).

My question is, in my case would doing this help strengthen the image of my chapter or distract from their beliefs/goals (which is sort of the main theme, I suppose)?

Probably help. Might hamper their goals, but (in a nice way), I don't know that their goals are inherently all that interesting. Like I said, a lot of folks do this. A bunch of Marines who wear the skins of their foes would be entertaining.

The idea of the tribal militia rings false, BTW. Stone age primitives to space age militia in weeks? Seems a bit quick.

I'll take a more detailed look at the new writeup soon.

Captain Cirrius · March 6, 2013

@Octavulg

Firstly, thank you very much for your continued interest and critique. I would really like to make this my first "completed" IA (if such a thing even truly exists).

My knowledge of timelines and foundings is not very extenssive. Could you perhaps suggest a founding/time period that you think would be appropriate? I would prefer to have the chapter be fairly young at the time of the destruction of Parsus IV
Somewhere around here is a post by me with a massive timeline. Find it, read it, be enlightened.

I have skimmed through most of your resources (thank-you very much for them by the way!!!), and I believe that Messor helped me settle on the 25th founding, making them quite young in relative terms, but certainly old enough to grow a lasting connection with homeworld/tribal militia. If you were confirm this as a solid time to place my chapter, I would certainly sleep better at night (you are the ecpert after all ;) )

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I foresaw this issue while writing. Would it be a plausible solution to send the chapter away on a dire mission? While the planet was left largely unattended, an uprising ocurred, and by the time the Sons returned, the rebellion was too large to quell?
It'd make sense for some of the chapter to be away. Not necessarily all. Though if there was a Black Crusade or something, that could draw them away

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I am going to take the part about the loyal civilians joining in the fight out of the equation. Also, I will specify that the number of grey knights is fairly small, just a small detatchment to accompany/protect Dethias. But still, 500 SM + some 50 odd GK against 170 BILLION cultists that are bolstered by demons and CSM...Not a fight they can win lol
Orbital bombardment is a magnificent equalizer.

I'm not going to go back and find it, but I believe either Messor on this thread, or somebody else another of my threads, mentioned that, being Imperial Fists successors, pride might be a factor in dissuading orbital assault. Also, could an orbital assault actually do much damage to a city housing billions upon billions. would not a city like this be the size of a large country as we know it? (I am actually asking, not trying to make a point. Didn't want to come off as condescending there)

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As I mentioned to Messor, I attempted to imply that Inquisitor Lord Dethias was sent on behalf of a High Lord on Terra, and carried this official's authority. I would think a Chapter Master (especially one of a fairly young chapter) would have no choice but to bend to such authority. And since the Chapter was commissioned by these High Lords for the reason of defending this sector, I would think that, in their eyes, the Sons had failed and intervention was necessary. While it is the chapter's homeworld, it still belongs to the Imperium.
Why would a High Lord send him? To deal with this? The High Lords wouldn't be likely to have heard yet, I would think

I think I will get around this issue by making it so that the Sons themselves called for aid, and this call was answered by Dethias. Along with fixing the problem, this adds to the tragedy that, in a way, the Sons orchestrated their own undoing...

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I basically just want to finally finish the background on this chapter in a way that makes sense and is interetsing so that I have an image as I build the army. Your help is VERY MUCH appreciated.
But what do you want them to be like? What kind of people/marines? Any influences or themes or shiny concepts you like you want to work in?

Well as people have both critisized and critiqued the original goal behind the chapter (which was to create "the good guys" but for real) it has become apparent to me that everyone needs a dark side/flaw in order to be interesting. So I think I want to create a chapter who's ideaologies have consumed their minds. They hate corruption in the same way the Inquisition hates heresy. As for Amyntas himself, I have come to see him as akin Che Guevera. Believing so much in good, that many (outside his own people), can view him as dangerous and lost. He will not hesitate to eradicate corruption with extreme prejudice and his soldiers follow with a blind devontion that borders on the fanatic. I want to paint him as quite the leader type.

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Ok I had a thought and wanted to run it by you guys. Now that I have made the tribes a more permanent extension of the warband, would it be worth it to integrate a theme of the culture of the Tribes seeping into the way chapter conducts itself? I've just read Firepower's IA: Broken Arrow and I love the way that he makes the combat doctrine and culture of the natives transfer over to that of the chapter (I've seen this elsewhere i.e. SW, I'm just using Broken Arrow as an example).

My question is, in my case would doing this help strengthen the image of my chapter or distract from their beliefs/goals (which is sort of the main theme, I suppose)?
Probably help. Might hamper their goals, but (in a nice way), I don't know that their goals are inherently all that interesting. Like I said, a lot of folks do this. A bunch of Marines who wear the skins of their foes would be entertaining.

Yes I am thinking of integrating the Tribes more into the fluff and behavior of the chapter. And also, with the changes to their goals that I have described above, are they at all differentiated from the crowd?

The idea of the tribal militia rings false, BTW. Stone age primitives to space age militia in weeks? Seems a bit quick

I apologize for not specifying (this will be fixed), but in my mind the Tribal Militia are holding lasguns and wearing camo. Think of the French's Indian allies in the French and Indian War. They fight alongside the Astartes but adhere to their own combat doctrine and battle traditions. The only major adjustment is that they have been forced (by necessity) to adjust to fleet-based life.

Also, I will specify that, unlike Space Wolves, the Sons do not watch from afar, keeping themselves shrouded in mystery and legend. They mingle (for want of a better word) with the tribesmen, making themsleves known. I was thinking that perhaps even initiates are sent to live among them as part of training. I want the tribes to view the astartes almost as a fellow tribe, so when they were rounded up and hastily trained to defend the planet, it was by a people they were quite familiar with.

I'll take a more detailed look at the new writeup soon.

Much appreciated! Your critiques have kept me on my toes and quite motivated.

Octavulg · March 6, 2013

I have skimmed through most of your resources (thank-you very much for them by the way!!!), and I believe that Messor helped me settle on the 25th founding, making them quite young in relative terms, but certainly old enough to grow a lasting connection with homeworld/tribal militia. If you were confirm this as a solid time to place my chapter, I would certainly sleep better at night (you are the ecpert after all )

Aw, shucks.

The 25th founding makes sense. Anything older than 26th is probably good enough.

I'm not going to go back and find it, but I believe either Messor on this thread, or somebody else another of my threads, mentioned that, being Imperial Fists successors, pride might be a factor in dissuading orbital assault. Also, could an orbital assault actually do much damage to a city housing billions upon billions. would not a city like this be the size of a large country as we know it? (I am actually asking, not trying to make a point. Didn't want to come off as condescending there)

Yup. But if they're going from city to city, they have to leave the confines of the structures (which are presumably armored, after all).

And pride is fine until you're losing. The Fists may be also prideful, but they pride themselves even more on not losing.

I think I will get around this issue by making it so that the Sons themselves called for aid, and this call was answered by Dethias. Along with fixing the problem, this adds to the tragedy that, in a way, the Sons orchestrated their own undoing...

But what about that Dornian pride! Calling in someone to help you put down a rebellion on your home world? Now that's embarassing. Orbital bombardment happens all the time.

Well as people have both critisized and critiqued the original goal behind the chapter (which was to create "the good guys" but for real) it has become apparent to me that everyone needs a dark side/flaw in order to be interesting. So I think I want to create a chapter who's ideaologies have consumed their minds. They hate corruption in the same way the Inquisition hates heresy. As for Amyntas himself, I have come to see him as akin Che Guevera. Believing so much in good, that many (outside his own people), can view him as dangerous and lost. He will not hesitate to eradicate corruption with extreme prejudice and his soldiers follow with a blind devontion that borders on the fanatic. I want to paint him as quite the leader type.

Would be a sensible thing to happen after the loss of their home world, especially if they were a bit goodier two-shoesy before.

There are decent chapters in the 41st millenium. It's just that bad things tend to happen to them, and even decent is still pretty nasty by modern standards.

Yes I am thinking of integrating the Tribes more into the fluff and behavior of the chapter. And also, with the changes to their goals that I have described above, are they at all differentiated from the crowd?

I doubt you're the first to do it, but it's fairly distinct. Though I'd almost be fine with a bunch of pure and noble guys who wore the skins of their enemies. That's plenty characterful in its own right.

Purity is fine, too, and all. But not many chapters go around skinning their defeated enemies.

I apologize for not specifying (this will be fixed), but in my mind the Tribal Militia are holding lasguns and wearing camo. Think of the French's Indian allies in the French and Indian War. They fight alongside the Astartes but adhere to their own combat doctrine and battle traditions. The only major adjustment is that they have been forced (by necessity) to adjust to fleet-based life.

There's a bit of a difference between a flintlock musket and a lasgun (I would think, anyway) (though that was the metaphor I jumped to when I thought "Stone Age guys with guns? How absurd!"

).

Captain Cirrius · March 6, 2013

Also, when you get a chance to read through the rewrite, I have added a new Character, chaplain Rectio to explain an alternative to MoTW (I use SW rules for these guys in game and thought this could be an opportunity for expansion of character). I feel like it has the most potential for HUGE fluff related holes as my knowledge of Gene-stock quite shaky. Thanks again :)

Octavulg · March 13, 2013

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The genestock of the Imperial Fists was used in the creation of the Sons of Retribution. A training cadre led by Brother Origo set out for the world of Parsus IV, which they were attracted to due to both the harsh environments of its desert wilderness, as well as it's massive walled cities, and began recruiting from this world while also establishing themselves as permanent residents their.

Just a Brother? Not a Captain, or a Sergeant?

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The only humans to reside in these areas are thousands of nomadic tribes ranging in size from a few dozen, to many thousand members. It is from these tribes that the Sons of Retribution began recruiting their initiates.

A few thousand nomadic tribes of "many thousand" each could be a couple of million people, or even a billion. That's insignificant compared to the HIves, but hardly uninhabited.

Also, hive gangs make awesome recruits. Just saying.

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The Desert Tribes are a nomadic people. Every man in them is raised to be a proffesional warrior, as the tribes often war amongst themselves. Upon arriving, scholars with the Sons of Retribution attempted to chronicle the different tribes, but found the effort impossible as tribes destroyed and absorbed one another, or were killed by packs of the desert wildlife. Because of this constant danger, those men deamed as weak or disformed are killed or exiled to be eaten by carniverous beasts.

The last sentence seems unnecessary. Also, you should mention ways that new tribes arise, otherwise it seems like the number of tribes should just keep constantly falling.

Do they raid the Hive Cities? Probably not with low technology, but one could see it.

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Tribal battle is an ever present experience for these tribes. They have acces to no firearms, and instead use hand weapons made from bone or stone. It was also observed that the practice of wearing the skins of vanquished foes, wether man or beast, is a very common practice. Chapter Master Origo found that the inherent savagery and primitive nature of these tribes, mixed with the regimented sophistication of his home chapter, the Imperial Fists, bred excellent Astartes.

I still think the skin-wearing should be a thing with the chapter, as well. Maybe emphasize it a bit more here.

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Current Condition: =][= Exterminatus ordered by the authority of Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor Lord Dethias =][=

IT would be easier to cut this and just have the Home World section talk in the past tense.

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At this time, a large uprising occured in a city-state of Gehenna on Parsus IV. A large band of heretics overthrew the local city government and began preaching of the Ruinous Powers to the cities population. Before long, the city was entirely populated by billions of cultists. The Sons of Retribution attempted to lay siege to the city, but with the cultists' high walls, anti-orbital weaponry, and massively superior numbers, the chapter was repelled time and time again.

Armageddon's hives are named for various apocalypse-associated things, but that suggests yours shouldn't be, if only to prevent confusion.

Parsus apparently means "forborne", so you could name the hives things like Mercy, Restraint, etc. Which would contrast amusingly with the chapter's name.

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As conditions in the wilderness became even worse, the chapter began moving entire tribes (who had, by now, become familiar with the Astartes presence) to their fleet, Primor, and the Fortress Monestary, where they were quickly trained into an armed militia, numbering in the thousands. It proved to not be enough. None were able to calculate the number of Traitor Astartes and Demons that had been summoned to the world, but it is know that the cultists numbered at least 170 billion.

It sounds like you're training them on the fleet, which makes no sense. Also, these are Space Marines. A some point, they should begin throwing so many lance strikes at everything that it'd make your head spin.

Seriously. A Space MArine chapter should be able to handle warfare on its home world with no enemy fleet assets. Hell, any war should be lost by the guys who have no fleet assets.

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When threats were finally made by both forces, Dethias chose to infiltrate the crews of the chapters fleet with a number of his personal spies.

Space MArine ships are crewed by chapter serfs. They don't just grab random guys and let them in.

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Despite the protest,Parsus IV, along with nearly 170 billion Imperial Souls, was destroyed within the week. Dethias departed, leaving his network of informants within the chapter's fleet.

You're forcing a conflict here, I think, and its not working for me.

An alternative idea, if you like: have the chapter win the war (due in part to the tribes) then break the hives, casting the people out into the desert - the hives gave birth to corruption and evil, after all. The Inquisitor is appalled by this, and sees it as a waste of a productive world, and calls the chapter's loyalty into question. They end up excommunicated.

It'd be an amusing reversal having the Inquisitor be horrified by the Chapter's methods.

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Origo, stricken with grief at the loss, began to recognize the corruption of the Imperium. He knew that no such actions could be the Will of the Emperor, and realized that the Imperium was controlled instead by old men from high seats on Terra. This deep set resentment of the Imperium was shared by most in the chapter, and, after long deliberation, it was decided that the Sons of Retribution would serve the Emperor's Will rather than that of the Imperium, and that they would protect the people of the Imperium from persecution and corruption, liberating them in the name of the Emperor. It was also decided that the chapter would hunt the forces of Chaos wherever they could be found, dealing swift vengeance against the Ruinous Powers for the part they played in the destruction of the chapter's homeoworld.

Space Marine should be very familiar with the idea of Exterminatus. Exterminating a world that's actually falling to Chaos is even pretty reasonable. Furthermore, Origo shouldn't care that much about the place - he's not from there.

Also, 170 billion hive worlders should be more dangerous than a tribal militia. The chapter completely ignoring almost the entire rest of the planet in favor of the tribes is beginning to feel stranger and stranger.

Also also, the Chapter has a fleet, and could easily just wipe out the Inquisitor's fleet. They'd even arguably be in their rights to do so - a Chapter Master's probably more important than a lone inquisitor, and this is an Astartes home world, not a regular IMperial planet.

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Upon his promotion to Chapter Master, Amyntas drastically reorganized the chapter to better accomodate their new role.

Why? What's wrong with the Codex?

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The Sons have no Apothecaries. Chaplain Rectio holds resposibility as both spiritual leader and maintains the chapter's geneseed stock. He also oversees the initiation of new Sons and, along with Amyntas and the Champions, hand selects new Astartes candidates from the ranks of the Tribal Militia.

Uh...no. You need an Apothecarion. A lot.

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The chapter does not have a battle-cry, however their is a phrase that has become well known within the ranks of the chapter. Legend says that as then-Champion Amyntas watched his homeworld burn, he uttered the words, "Sic transit gloria Imperium." This roughly translates in High Gothic to, "Thus passes the glory of the Imperium".

Never translate. All true citizens of the Emperor know High Gothic, and those who don't don't deserve to know.

Also, put the characters and the engagements at the end. It kinda messes with the flow where they are now.

Captain Cirrius · March 13, 2013

Ok I'm a bit rushed, so I'm only going to respond to a select few now. Will finish responses later:

Just a Brother? Not a Captain, or a Sergeant?

Would a captain or a sergeant not be called Brother? I'm just not specifying his rank at this time.

A few thousand nomadic tribes of "many thousand" each could be a couple of million people, or even a billion. That's insignificant compared to the HIves, but hardly uninhabited.

Also, hive gangs make awesome recruits. Just saying

That kind of depends on the size of the world. With just a large planet that is almost all sand surface area, a few million people isn't going to fill it up. I will make the tribes smaller though, as I think that works better with the concept anyway.

It sounds like you're training them on the fleet, which makes no sense

I don't see how? If a space marine fleet contains everything needed to create new space marines, does that not include areas for training soldiers?

Space MArine ships are crewed by chapter serfs. They don't just grab random guys and let them in

Well I need some way for the Inquisitor to be informed of the chapters betrayal. Instead of infiltrating the crews, I will just say they infiltrated the ship. I find unlikely that a handful of spies would not be able to hide in a ship the size of a city.

An alternative idea, if you like: have the chapter win the war (due in part to the tribes) then break the hives, casting the people out into the desert - the hives gave birth to corruption and evil, after all. The Inquisitor is appalled by this, and sees it as a waste of a productive world, and calls the chapter's loyalty into question. They end up excommunicated.

It'd be an amusing reversal having the Inquisitor be horrified by the Chapter's methods.

This begins changing every idea I originally had about the chapter. No, I think the central idea of the conflict will stay the same. I will change whatever details are necessary for it to be believable, but the main idea has to remain.

Why? What's wrong with the Codex?

Well first off, they are no longer "loyalist" so following the rules of a loyalist chapter wouldn't make sense. The reason he changed it was simply because he had an idea of a way that he thought made more sense for a fleet based force. They aren't really a "chapter" anymore after all.

Uh...no. You need an Apothecarion. A lot.

Space Wolves have no Apothecarion. Chaplains absorb those duties as their own.

***

Will give more in depth responses at a later time. I'm traveling a lot right now so expect in depth responses a full, proper edit in about a week.

Octavulg · March 18, 2013

Would a captain or a sergeant not be called Brother? I'm just not specifying his rank at this time.

Considering they're often referred to as Brother-Captain and Brother-Sergeant, I'm gonna go with "no".

That kind of depends on the size of the world. With just a large planet that is almost all sand surface area, a few million people isn't going to fill it up. I will make the tribes smaller though, as I think that works better with the concept anyway.

Making them smaller doesn't work that well, IMO, since you need a large enough population base to support recruitment (since, for no apparent reason, your Marines don't recruit from the Hives).

I don't see how? If a space marine fleet contains everything needed to create new space marines, does that not include areas for training soldiers?

It's the bit where you have to transport hundreds of thousands of people up to your ship in order to train them to fight in the environment of the planet they were already on. It's rather inefficient.

Well I need some way for the Inquisitor to be informed of the chapters betrayal. Instead of infiltrating the crews, I will just say they infiltrated the ship. I find unlikely that a handful of spies would not be able to hide in a ship the size of a city.

How'd they get on in the first place? I'm pretty sure Space Marine ships try and maintain security.

You're trying to force certain things to happen. That way lies madness. Work out what you need the result to be, then figure out a way for that to happen naturalistically.

This begins changing every idea I originally had about the chapter. No, I think the central idea of the conflict will stay the same. I will change whatever details are necessary for it to be believable, but the main idea has to remain.

The central idea of the conflict is inherently flawed, though. Chapter Masters have the power to declare Exterminatus, and an INquisitor trying to do it on a chapter home world would seem unlikely to be the sort of thing an Inquisitor could actually do. Plus, the chapter fleet is right there.

If you want them to exterminate the home world, have it actually be a reasonable decision. Because if it wasn't, no sensible Inquisitor is going to try and overrule a Space Marine chapter about their home world with their fleet present and waiting to shoot him. If the world was actually going to fall to Chaos, then it makes sense to insist on Exterminatus. If it's an ambiguous decision, you're relying on the Inquisitor just being a bad man, and that's weak writing.

Well first off, they are no longer "loyalist" so following the rules of a loyalist chapter wouldn't make sense. The reason he changed it was simply because he had an idea of a way that he thought made more sense for a fleet based force. They aren't really a "chapter" anymore after all.

Uh...why does it no longer make sense? The Codex is designed for Space Marines by one of the foremost Space Marine strategists and tacticians, cribbing from the other foremost strategists and tacticians, and then embellished for ten thousand years by OTHER foremost strategists and tacticians.

And your random schmuck is going to do better?

Space Wolves have no Apothecarion. Chaplains absorb those duties as their own.

They still are an Apothecarion, they're just also Chaplains. You can't have one Chaplain perform all those duties. Apothecaries are critically important to a chapter.

Captain Cirrius · March 19, 2013

Considering they're often referred to as Brother-Captain and Brother-Sergeant, I'm gonna go with "no".

Well then I'll change this when I get around to another edit...

Making them smaller doesn't work that well, IMO, since you need a large enough population base to support recruitment (since, for no apparent reason, your Marines don't recruit from the Hives).

This is a failure on my part to specify. They don't take everybody in the tribes, just enough men to make a reasonable fighting force. That doesn't seem so far fetched to me...

As for the fact that they don't recruit from the Hives: Lets say its not a hive world then. I want it to be a place that has large cities, that are very "proper" and "holier than thou" and a very sharp contrasting population of "savages" that live in the wilderness. Society in the cities does not tolerate brutish things like hive

gangs. A Hive-world was the closest thing I could find to what I was looking for so I went with it...

It's the bit where you have to transport hundreds of thousands of people up to your ship in order to train them to fight in the environment of the planet they were already on. It's rather inefficient.

Well they needed to be trained and the cities don't allow tribesman within the walls as they are "sub-human"

Also they dont take hundreds of thousands. This is a failure on my part to specify. They don't take everybody in the tribes, just enough men to make a reasonable fighting force. That doesn't seem so far fetched to me...

How'd they get on in the first place? I'm pretty sure Space Marine ships try and maintain security.

You're trying to force certain things to happen. That way lies madness. Work out what you need the result to be, then figure out a way for that to happen naturalistically.

Ok well I needed Inquisitor Lord Dethias to turn around and confront the chapter, and when I wrote that in, you or someone else told me that it didn't make sense for him to turn around without having some way of hearing about it and this is what I came up with....I need him to here about the chapters betrayal before they get too far away and turn around to confront them. I can't figure out any other of doing that...

The central idea of the conflict is inherently flawed, though. Chapter Masters have the power to declare Exterminatus, and an INquisitor trying to do it on a chapter home world would seem unlikely to be the sort of thing an Inquisitor could actually do. Plus, the chapter fleet is right there.

If you want them to exterminate the home world, have it actually be a reasonable decision. Because if it wasn't, no sensible Inquisitor is going to try and overrule a Space Marine chapter about their home world with their fleet present and waiting to shoot him. If the world was actually going to fall to Chaos, then it makes sense to insist on Exterminatus. If it's an ambiguous decision, you're relying on the Inquisitor just being a bad man, and that's weak writing

But it has to be a decision that has arguments for both sides (think Hiroshima) so that my chapter can justify leaving the Imperium. If the planet was entirely overrun with chaos, it wouldnt make much sense for them all butthurt about it, but it has to be close enough to losing that the Inquisitor feels he is within the right. If you have a suggestion that keeps the cetral idea, I'm all ears.

Uh...why does it no longer make sense? The Codex is designed for Space Marines by one of the foremost Space Marine strategists and tacticians, cribbing from the other foremost strategists and tacticians, and then embellished for ten thousand years by OTHER foremost strategists and tacticians.

And your random schmuck is going to do better?

I think you are taking too much humanity out of the people in this story. People can have ideas that don't necessarily make sense but that they think are better. What you are saying is like saying that is just mind blowingly unbelievable for the B&C to change the skin on it's website. The other skin was just fine, why change it. Well its because somebody had an idea that they thought was better and went with it. Its as simple as that. I don't think every tiny detail needs mounds and mounds of explanation.

They still are an Apothecarion, they're just also Chaplains. You can't have one Chaplain perform all those duties. Apothecaries are critically important to a chapter.

Thats what I'm saying. My chaplain in a Chaplain AND an Apothecary. Literally exactly like SW. I use SW rules when I play these guys in game and I want to add details in the IA that make those rule make sense if the the fluff.

Octavulg · March 20, 2013

This is a failure on my part to specify. They don't take everybody in the tribes, just enough men to make a reasonable fighting force. That doesn't seem so far fetched to me...

In a corresponding failure: I meant recruitment into the Chapter. Ignoring the cities as a base for recruits is weird, especially since they're such a large percentage of the population.

As for the fact that they don't recruit from the Hives: Lets say its not a hive world then. I want it to be a place that has large cities, that are very "proper" and "holier than thou" and a very sharp contrasting population of "savages" that live in the wilderness. Society in the cities does not tolerate brutish things like hive gangs. A Hive-world was the closest thing I could find to what I was looking for so I went with it...

I'd go with a more feudal world, then. Though, really, any society always has its underbelly.

Well they needed to be trained and the cities don't allow tribesman within the walls as they are "sub-human"

Also they dont take hundreds of thousands. This is a failure on my part to specify. They don't take everybody in the tribes, just enough men to make a reasonable fighting force. That doesn't seem so far fetched to me...

And? They're still going to be fighting onplanet. Also, the cities are subordinate to the chapter, at least if the chapter has any sense. If the chapter says "let the tribes in for now", the cities should be clicking their heels and asking whether the tribes prefer coffee or tea.

Ok well I needed Inquisitor Lord Dethias to turn around and confront the chapter, and when I wrote that in, you or someone else told me that it didn't make sense for him to turn around without having some way of hearing about it and this is what I came up with....I need him to here about the chapters betrayal before they get too far away and turn around to confront them. I can't figure out any other of doing that...

Why do you need Dethias to turn around and confront the chapter?

You're thinking too micro. You keep wanting certain events to happen. What outcome do you need? Then figure out how to get there with the elements you have.

But it has to be a decision that has arguments for both sides (think Hiroshima) so that my chapter can justify leaving the Imperium. If the planet was entirely overrun with chaos, it wouldnt make much sense for them all butthurt about it, but it has to be close enough to losing that the Inquisitor feels he is within the right. If you have a suggestion that keeps the cetral idea, I'm all ears.

Do you want your Chapter to be unambiguously right from the reader's perspective or not?

I think you are taking too much humanity out of the people in this story. People can have ideas that don't necessarily make sense but that they think are better. What you are saying is like saying that is just mind blowingly unbelievable for the B&C to change the skin on it's website. The other skin was just fine, why change it. Well its because somebody had an idea that they thought was better and went with it. Its as simple as that. I don't think every tiny detail needs mounds and mounds of explanation.

I think you're underestimating the Codex. The Codex is massive. It defines almost every aspect of a Space Marine chapter. Tactics, organization, genetic protocols, etc. It is huge. There's a whole section in the Octaguide on this.

Throwing it out means getting rid of all of that. There should be a good reason. "He felt like it" is not a good reason. Your Chapter Master apparently decided he knew better than ten thousand years of Space Marine strategists, including his own Primarch. That's a big leap to take.

Thats what I'm saying. My chaplain in a Chaplain AND an Apothecary. Literally exactly like SW. I use SW rules when I play these guys in game and I want to add details in the IA that make those rule make sense if the the fluff.

Yes. And I'm saying you can't have one single Chaplain be your only Apothecary. It's too big a job.

Also, the explanation's really arbitrary. What happened to the rest of the Chapter Apothecaries? How'd the Chaplain get training? Etc.

Also, I really wish you'd emphasize the whole skin-wearing aspect more. That was awesome. They could be the Flayers of Retribution! And then actually be nice guys. No one would see it coming.

Captain Cirrius · April 10, 2013

I just had an idea that may solve the issue of the chapter leaving the imperium. what if, instead of choosing to leave, Amyntas struck down the inquisitor in a fit of grief stricken rage, and this led to a battle that caused the chapter to be labeled traitors (even though they still denounce the blood gods and love the emperor)

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IA: Sons of Retribution V4.1MASSIVE Edit: 4/24