Thoughts on Fluff based armies.

[The Octagon]

I like fluff based armies so you won't be surprised when I say that I find many tournament armies boring. 

 

But that's not why I started this new topic. I'm having thoughts of a fluff-based 1500-1750 pts Blood Gorgons army.  So I have some questions for you guys. Note that if I pull this through, it will be pitted against friends and not partake in tournaments. 

 

1) How inflexible am I allowed to be? As we all know, much in the overall fluff doesn't translate well into actual gameplay. Should I stay true to the existing fluff even if it is nigh impossible? In the book Blood Gorgons, the squad size is mentioned as six marines, three bond-pairs. Applying that to your regular marine squad leaves you with only one special weapon and empty space in their rhino. Chosen squads can take a heavy weapon regardless of size, and other nice toys to slaughter the corpse-god's servants with. But Chosen aren't scoring. The thought of making a squad of 12 and say that two squads joined forces for this battle to bolster the line or whatever. 

 

2) Marks in an undivied renegade chapter. Do you guys give your troops marks and pretend that they are just tougher, meaner, faster than other marines, and just leave it there? Should I give my troops mark of Nurgle for durability when the fluff states that the Blood Gorgons don't like Death Guard very much for reasons not mentioned here.

 

3) My basic idea is to have a lord with equipment almost identical to the Khorsaad (chapter master) of the Blood Gorgons, and with him his personal bodyguard of chosen. It is rare for a whole warband to march to war so my count-as troops will be two units of six chosen squads. They are still elite choices, but play the role of troops. The troop choices will be cultists. Large units that are the Blood Gorgons slaves, or human reavers that the warband supports (previous books in the series by Henry Zou). Something I can expand with potential Imperial Guard allies. Tanks and spawns are legit for some extra close combat and anti-tank. I might even throw in a sorcerer if the points permits. My question here is, will this basic army set-up be totally worthless and be swept clear every time I face an opponent? Or will it possibly lead to varied gameplay and   different tactics?

 

Well, that is all for now, I'm too tired to read it through so ask questions if something is awry. Also, please tell me if you guys have had any success with fluff based armies or if you just obliterate those whenever you have the chance.

[the jeske]

any army legaly taken from a codex[or more depanding on number of points played] is automaticly fluffy , some may have problem with the fact that most of those lists smell of BL , but that is life.

[Kol Saresk]

1.) Inflexible? Do you perhaps mean flexible? The reality is, as flexible as you want. For example, in Blood Gorgon, as you mentioned the typical squad is 6 strong. But in one of the earlier books(Flesh and Iron I think), we see the Dos Pares. Nothing suggests that there were ever more than the four Gorgons. Yet only four there were. So what I would say is that typically there are six man strong squads. But in occasions were the situation demands or several squads have suffered losses and are mixed in with the full strength squads to create a temporary over-strength capacity it is a possibly as well.

 

2.) Undivided does not mean Unmarked so Marks are always a go. If you have a personal preference against Marks in an Undivided warband, that's when it becomes either a matter of making an Unmarked list(a little difficult in this edition) or come up with "Count-As", such as Bionics or Rage-roids.

 

3.) That does sound like a plan. And IIRC, Khorsaad had a big claw and a tulwar sword. You could always use an Abaddon count-as since he has a claw, a sword and Terminator armor. With the exception of certain details, the two are very similar in loadouts as I believe the book said that Khorsaad has as much body mass and metal density as a Rhino.

[*Furyou Miko]

Since the Gorgons thing is operating in pairs, you're probably fine as long as you keep your squads even-numbered.

 

Undivided means All the Gods Working Together as much as it means Every Man Godless.

 

Kol - a rhino, or an RH1N0?

[Kol Saresk]

An APC Miko, not a 4x4 :P

[Iron Sage]

Meh, I like fluff and I really like fluffy armies, but.... As for "numbers" in a squad, I have always found that outrageously stupid to say the least. Most of the warbands have warriors that actually die now and then. What I am trying to imply, is that the "sacred" number thing in a squad is not necesarilly any more fluffy than an odd number which is none of the sacred ones.

 

Example: A band of World Eaters decided (surprise, surprise!) to assault the lines held by a Guard artillery batallion which is supported by its Force protection element. Now, does that band of World Eaters then sit down prior to assault, debating how they can manage to assault the elements of the Guard in their "sacred" numbers when there is like....57 of them? Lol, of course not.  What they would do (likely prior to battle) would be to reinforce weakened squads, thus butchering existant ones, to add up their numbers of each one to get more effectivein combat. I seriously, seriously, most seriously doubt that they would kill their own troops, just so they would be able to charge in "sacred" numbers ;)

[Kol Saresk]

In this case, it's not a sacred number. The Blood Gorgons undergo an alchemical surgery that literally bonds two Astartes to each other on a psychic level. What one feels, the other feels. What one sees, the other becomes aware of. And so on so forth. The very nature of this bond is what limits the squad size.

[Iron Sage]

*The Dread bloodreaver Khorgan the Unrelenting cast his furious gaze over the assembled host of his brother salughterers, whom all to their credit were busy cleansing tissue and human remnants from their weapons and armour, cheacking their ammunition supplies and otherwise preparing each other for the comming assault against the lines held by the wretches guarding the imperial artillery. Suddenly, his eyes bulgs as realisation dawns on him*

 

"By the lord Khorne and his sacred throne of Skullls! Men, retreat! Abandon the attack! Pull back, pull back NOW! *eyes and voice hysterical with fanatical devotion as he roars in wrath and irritation* "Who was the last man to die, dogs? Who cast down his life before he was ordered to fall on his blade!? Don`t you blood hounds realise! We cannot attack tonight, our numbers are....awry. No, men, retreat, better to wait for Lord Thorkils reinforcements which are bound to make planetfall tomorrow! We cannot possibly attack without our lords favour!"

 

And so on :)

 

Hope the above illustrates why sacred numbers is kind of...silly ;)

[Iron Sage]

In this case, it's not a sacred number. The Blood Gorgons undergo an alchemical surgery that literally bonds two Astartes to each other on a psychic level. What one feels, the other feels. What one sees, the other becomes aware of. And so on so forth. The very nature of this bond is what limits the squad size.

Heh :P

 

Right, I still think my post below yours (and above this one) kind of illustrates quite well why this sacred number thing is...iffy.

 

Now Blood Gorgons as you say (not read the book myself I confess) , might be different but I am sure you can still see the issue at hand? :)

[Kol Saresk]

I get the issue. Believe me, I entirely do. I'm just saying that, if the OP wants to do it, he can. If he doesn't, there are a million reasons he can come up with to explain why, as he wants a fluff-based army, not a tournament-based.

[*Furyou Miko]

:D Sacred numbers are fine, I don't have a problem with them.

 

"My lord! We can't attack, we lack the correct number of warriors in each squad!"

 

"Sigh... so summon more, idiot." smack.

 

"Oh. R-right. You two, we need three more rubrics and another ghost warrior!"

[Iron Sage]

Sacred numbers are fine, I don't have a problem with them.

"My lord! We can't attack, we lack the correct number of warriors in each squad!"

"Sigh... so summon more, idiot." smack.

"Oh. R-right. You two, we need three more rubrics and another ghost warrior!"

Heh, wouldn`t work that well with every other badn/legion I would say, and I addition I seriously doubt that a T Son sorcerer can simply summon reinforcements instantly. Now that would be a ritual that would take time ;)

[Iron Sage]

I get the issue. Believe me, I entirely do. I'm just saying that, if the OP wants to do it, he can. If he doesn't, there are a million reasons he can come up with to explain why, as he wants a fluff-based army, not a tournament-based.

Heya

You misunderstood. I love fluff armies. I just think that units in certain numbers have nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with fluff and is just a way to show that the Game Devs. have questionable fantasy and immagination as to what would actually happen on a battlefield where people can...you know...die

Edit: But as you correctly stated, each to his own. There are as you say, a myriad reasons for troops having a certain squad size. I have just always found the sacred number squads a tad silly (if they are perfectly alligned, as in every khorne unit 8 man, which would indicate a fresh warband). To me the sacred numbers in warhammer have always been about magic, rituals, cultists etc. seeking the favour of their God and so on. On the battlefield however, having sacred numbers in a squad so that your units would fight less effectivly is not something the Gods would favour at all I reckon...

[Wade Garrett]

A Khornate warband has 65 members, meaning they cannot be organized in the Blood Gods favored method?

 

Chop!

Problem solved.

[Iron Sage]

A Khornate warband has 65 members, meaning they cannot be organized in the Blood Gods favored method?

 

Chop!

Problem solved.

Being Khornate doesn`t or shouldn`t necesarilly equal being Imbeciles...

 

Despite being angry and seriously wanting to shed blood, they still want to WIN battles you know.

[derpasaurus]

but 64 is a multiple of 8. and blood and skulls and etc.

[derpasaurus]

I like fluff based armies so you won't be surprised when I say that I find many tournament armies boring. 

 

But that's not why I started this new topic. I'm having thoughts of a fluff-based 1500-1750 pts Blood Gorgons army.  So I have some questions for you guys. Note that if I pull this through, it will be pitted against friends and not partake in tournaments. 

 

1) How inflexible am I allowed to be? As we all know, much in the overall fluff doesn't translate well into actual gameplay. Should I stay true to the existing fluff even if it is nigh impossible? In the book Blood Gorgons, the squad size is mentioned as six marines, three bond-pairs. Applying that to your regular marine squad leaves you with only one special weapon and empty space in their rhino. Chosen squads can take a heavy weapon regardless of size, and other nice toys to slaughter the corpse-god's servants with. But Chosen aren't scoring. The thought of making a squad of 12 and say that two squads joined forces for this battle to bolster the line or whatever. 

 

2) Marks in an undivied renegade chapter. Do you guys give your troops marks and pretend that they are just tougher, meaner, faster than other marines, and just leave it there? Should I give my troops mark of Nurgle for durability when the fluff states that the Blood Gorgons don't like Death Guard very much for reasons not mentioned here.

 

3) My basic idea is to have a lord with equipment almost identical to the Khorsaad (chapter master) of the Blood Gorgons, and with him his personal bodyguard of chosen. It is rare for a whole warband to march to war so my count-as troops will be two units of six chosen squads. They are still elite choices, but play the role of troops. The troop choices will be cultists. Large units that are the Blood Gorgons slaves, or human reavers that the warband supports (previous books in the series by Henry Zou). Something I can expand with potential Imperial Guard allies. Tanks and spawns are legit for some extra close combat and anti-tank. I might even throw in a sorcerer if the points permits. My question here is, will this basic army set-up be totally worthless and be swept clear every time I face an opponent? Or will it possibly lead to varied gameplay and   different tactics?

 

Well, that is all for now, I'm too tired to read it through so ask questions if something is awry. Also, please tell me if you guys have had any success with fluff based armies or if you just obliterate those whenever you have the chance.

1) Only going off what I learned of Blood Gorgons from this post, I would agree that you could make any even numbered squad, as each marine would have a psychically bonded partner. 12 would be potentially fluffy (multiple of 6) but they'd have to slog, as they wouldn't fit in a Rhino. If you plan on using Chosen, anyway, may as well stick with 10 as that's their max size, plus then you get 4 special weapons per team and 2 attacks base per model. (and a Rhino) Always nice. 

 

2) Prior to my conversations with Kol after joining this board myself, I would say "NO MARKS BOOOO" but my eyes were opened, and lo, I see the glory of counting marks as skills or wargear, and the benefits they can bring to the table. Especially if you give, say, MoK to chosen. Wait, 50 attacks on a charge? From 10 models? I personally love giving mine MoS, going on I5 is sweet, but either is great, especially against loyalists because with VotLW you can reroll all those misses in round 1.

 

3) As Kol said, You could run Abaddon, sure. Similar loadout, similar mass, and he'd make the Chosen count as troops, then, too. So you'd just have that many more scoring units after throwing in the Cultists. (Which would be a nice cheap counterbalance to your base 18pt/model Chosen and 200+pt HQ) I have a lot of fun playing my fluffy Night Lords army. I lose often, but usually come very close, at least.. but I play some pretty stiff lists. Lots of Guard, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Grey Knights in my meta. Just recently played against Black Templar for the first time, too. Terrible loss from a points perspective but it was a lot closer than I thought it would be after 2 turns when you base it on model count. I'm about 50/50 with my regular opponent's Dark Angel Death/Ravenwing squad list, tho. So fluff can be pretty stiff resistance, too, just takes more work as there's (often self imposed) limitations in our lists.

 

Get out there and destroy some Imperials with your Blood Gorgons! Good luck!