Ravenwing Grenade Launchers...Opinions

[hardimanm]

I am finishing up my Ravenwing Black Knight squads and Ravenwing command squads but i am torn about adding in any grenade launchers.

 

I have have crazy results using the plasma talons but have not have any experieces with the RW Grenade launchers yet.

 

I know their stats and abilities seem good on paper but how do they fare in game?

 

Please share your experiences, good and bad.

Thanks,

[Morticon]

Im not sure if this is in the OR or not, I assume so - but ive heard the interpretation locally  that the grenade only effects the model hit. 

If that is the case, i dont know if its worth it at all.   However, upon further reading, Im not sure I believe that to be the case at all.

 

In the rule the verb "hit" is doing the action to "unit" not "model".   So Im reading it as every model in the unit takes the init penalty. 

 

 

"Every cola in the fridge owned by me costs a dollar"

"Every worker in the Umbrella Corporation base that had the zombie outbreak is tested for the virus."

 

Seems clear to me. 

 

So, ya! I think they sound awesome!

[ZeBaron]

Take one in a 6+ man Black Knight unit. Any more and you are just losing the awesome firepower of the plasma talons.

[Vash]

It says pretty clear in the codex. Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad/stasis etc. 

It means, if one is hit, everyone is effected. Kinda hard for interpret, but read it a couple of times and it will become clear as you break down the sentence. 

 

So my answer to if the grenade launcher is worth it... yes it is. 

Think of it like this. 

 

Black knights will attack tough units. These units may some times include a character. Lets take Space Marines. Add in a commander or what not. 

If you use the rad grenade, -1 to toughness, you will lower their instant death threshold. So... T4 character is now a T3 character. And what strength does a plasma talon have? S7!

That means instant death if they fail their invulnerable save. 

 

Dont get med started on units like Grey Knight Paladins. They will literally run away like school girls. Two wounds counts for nothing. 

 

The stasis grenade is a great addition for your Black knights too, if you intend to charge. Lets say you face a unit of random enemies. If their WS is 4, you will now lower it to WS3. This in turn means more hits since you will hit on 3+. This means later on more chances for rending attacks, ignoring armour. 

 

It looks good on paper, and it is good on the battle field too. You generally don't need more than one. But if I were your opponent with my grey knights, I would use my precision shots or vindicare to take out the grenade launcher biker, ASAP!

[GlauG]

I take as many as I can in a unit of 9 RW Knights, and one with a Command Squad, usually.   I'm considering dropping the third, as it's rare I want to fire more than two grenades, but I do find them absolutely worth it.  Eventually the psychological aspect makes them a draw for enemy fire...  If it only makes your opponent focus attention on a squad of T5 guys with a decent cover save, it is still a useful tool. ;)  

[Polythemus]

my three uses of black knights

1.) BK ride over aegis line and shoot plasma plus krak grenades (from RWGL) at side armor exploding a chimera then massacring the psyker battle squad inside.

2.) 3 BK in the course of one game kill an entire tactical squad in ruins, and instant death azreal himself after hitting with the rad grenades. (DA vs. DA training excercise)

3.) 3 BK fire plasma and rad grenades at 3 tomb spyders killing 1 and wounding the others, he assaults me after and takes two more plasma wounds to overwatch. the other two die to rending weapons.

 

small sample size, big results. RWGL is your friend.

[Brom MKIV]

RWGLs are borderline broken good and they just keep getting better.. Looking at you new non EW daemons but also pretty much every xenos army too. From denying fnp to striking first in combat to instant death plasma auto cannons and assault cannons to just making salvo 4 boltguns into heavy bolters. They are that good.

[Upstartes]

Would you put one in a RW command squad? Or stick with 3 plasma talons?

[Brom MKIV]

I think thats more a matter of list design but I did and havent looked back since. My cmd is very combat oriented with the champ, interrogator + mace and sammael. Its smashed 14 death company in combat and grenades (and plasma too) were a big factor here. I actually value the rwgl over a plasma talon much of time since one hit turns your entire armys boltguns into heavy bolters.

[Vash]

In Ravenwing commands I would always include one ravenwing grenade launcher. As support for bolters (in combination of standard of devastation), or for assault. 

[GlauG]

Also agreeing with the GL in a Command Squad, but for a slightly different reason; My Command Squad stays out of combat as much as possible unless I think sitting in a weak melee tarpit is a good way to avoid nasty shooting or being assaulted in turn, so I use it to prepare enemy units to be beaten down by something else in my list. :) 

[march10k]

I see three uses for the grenades:

 

1.  It becomes tactically impossible NOT to assault with the black knights...grenades make the ensuing combat survivable.

 

2.  You're about to charge MEQs with a unit other than the black knights themselves. 

 

3.  You're lowering a target's initiative for the dark talon's rift cannon to have an easier time blinding them (yeah...right).

 

It's NOT, with the very limited exception of RARE multiwound T4 models, for "making plasma insta-gib," and therefore it does not synergize with plasma talon shooting...so all this discussion of paladins and HQ characters getting radded, then insta-plas-ed is interesting, it's not a common enough occurrence to justify the grenade launchers. 

[Vash]

Ravenwing command squad are support by all means. So a ravenwing grenade launcher is a given. 

Their unit is to small to actually do major damage. 

So coupled with Standard of Devastation and the RGL they will support their allies more than enough. 

[Hytanthas]

With Ravenwing Command Squads I would think that having the grenade launcher a must. The reason being that having 2 characters in the squad (One Champion and one Apothecary) there is a higher chance or precision shots to allocate to IC in a squad to instant kill them.

 

Edit:Misspelled ravenwing. :P

[Master Avoghai]

It's NOT, with the very limited exception of RARE multiwound T4 models, for "making plasma insta-gib

Sure, the occurrence of multi W T4 model is rare (though a chaos/SM/Tau/necron character can easily join a squad and you can wipe him out the same time you kill his retinue)

But the -1T can also really be helpfull to saturate a T4 squad with bolters. RW command squads are support unit that must ride beside a standard bikes squadron to optimize the TL bolters

[Cloud Runner]

And lets not forget Ork Nobs and the dreaded nob bikers.

 

Suddenly 1 point lower toughness makes them all the more manageble.

 

Note, I haven;t used them in a game yet (or the new book to be fair) but the theory is equally applicable to most.

 

 

and then there' IG and eldar, and other T3 armies - suddenly the bolters became insta-gibbers for all those lovely Seers or other pesky units.

 

 

I think I'll be converting up some DV bikes to make me some talons & launchers :D

[elphilo]

I always take the max I can take on my Ravenwing Black Knights. I can't comment on the command squad because I don't really take the Ravenwing Command Squad. But -1T is really all that matters. I can't really believe people don't think that it's worth it . It really is that good.

[Wraithwing]

And lets not forget Ork Nobs and the dreaded nob bikers.

Suddenly 1 point lower toughness makes them all the more manageble.

Note, I haven;t used them in a game yet (or the new book to be fair) but the theory is equally applicable to most.

and then there' IG and eldar, and other T3 armies - suddenly the bolters became insta-gibbers for all those lovely Seers or other pesky units.

I think I'll be converting up some DV bikes to make me some talons & launchers

I hadn't thought about bolters instakilling toughness 3 targets. Very nice.

When does the -1 apply to the target unit though?

Can you fire the grenade launchers, apply the debuff, then fire Plasma Talons in the same round of shooting?

[GlauG]

It's NOT, with the very limited exception of RARE multiwound T4 models, for "making plasma insta-gib," and therefore it does not synergize with plasma talon shooting...so all this discussion of paladins and HQ characters getting radded, then insta-plas-ed is interesting, it's not a common enough occurrence to justify the grenade launchers. 

 

Naturally how common this is will depend on your local Meta, but it is wonderful against T4 MEQ with Feel No Pain, regardless of how many wounds they have.  It is a great equaliser against Blood Angels and certain non-flyer CSM builds (and my one friend who runs Red Scorpions with Apothecaries in every squad, but that's much less common). 

[Vash]

I always take the max I can take on my Ravenwing Black Knights. I can't comment on the command squad because I don't really take the Ravenwing Command Squad. But -1T is really all that matters. I can't really believe people don't think that it's worth it . It really is that good.

When shooting yes, -1 T is all that matters. When assaulting, I would wager in the stasis grenade to be more important in many cases. I have made some unholy math hammering examples in another topic, and it shows that stasis is slightly better than rad in assaults, mostly due to more hits from better WS than the opponent, or striking before them/at the same time.

When does the -1 apply to the target unit though?

Can you fire the grenade launchers, apply the debuff, then fire Plasma Talons in the same round of shooting?

Been thinking of this my self.

But the rule in the dex says, "a unit hit by one or more weapons with this special rule suffers a -1 penalty to their X until end of turn. "

Now I would say since it only says hit, and nothing about "already hit", "a unit or vehicle that has effected the enemy unit", "other units may use the deebuff etc etc", it will confer to the same unit with the RGL.

[hardimanm]

Okay...so i now know these things are as good in game as on paper.  Now the question is how many do you actually need to run.  I have a 3 man command squad and a 6 man RW Black Knight squad.  Is just one in the Command squad enough for should i add one into the BK squad as well.

[Cypher 102]

The debuff takes effect as soon as the unit is hit.  The grenade launchers and plasma talons from the same unit roll to hit at the same time.  So by the time you roll to wound for the grenade and the plasma talons the unit is already -1 T.

[Wraithwing]

The debuff takes effect as soon as the unit is hit.  The grenade launchers and plasma talons from the same unit roll to hit at the same time.  So by the time you roll to wound for the grenade and the plasma talons the unit is already -1 T.

 

Aha, that makes perfect sense. 

 

Thanks for the clarification!

 

Cheers, 

 

WW

[Brom MKIV]

As someone already said paladins but also mega armoured nobz and wraiths are all excellent targets for insta kill plasma. I brought it up because ive used rad + talons for this. Its wonderful. Now daemons have lost EW and many of their units are t4 with multi wounds. I guess it depends on if you face that many xenos armies or not since most of the multi wound stuff resides there but since I do the combination is a godsend. Broken even.

[Vash]

Lets face it, its good, and we should try to get one in if we have the option to. 

 

Lets look at it in a whole squad. Usually we have 5-6 Black knights. Losing 2 rapid fire plasma shots hurts yes... But then again 8-10 TL plasma shots is more than enough. Not many units in the 40k universe can kill an enemy unit outright with shooting. 

With the RGL, we will get a buff/debuff (depends on how you see it). Instant kill possibilities, easier wounding though creatures, etc. 

 

In a Ravenwing command squad you have 3 Plasma talons. Now this is not enough to kill a unit outright really. And the command squad is mostly used so far as a supporting unit with a Standard of some kind. So why not support even more, increasing the effectiveness of other units nearby.