GK Brother Captain's final strike

[skarn]

I have a few questions about this power. :)

 

1. Can it be used to kill enemies the BC couldn't normally wound (ie, a T8 opponent)?

2. What happens if the BC suffers a double 1 perils? Does he still get to make the attack or not?

3. Does it affect gargantuan creatures such as An'ngrath?

 

Cheers guys! 

 

 

[Marshall Bretton]

do you mean the brotherhood champions heroic sacrifice ability?

 

if so it will remove ANY model that you choose, it talks about it in the faq, you could even take out a warlord battle titan if you were in base contact with it when your guy snuffed it

as to whether a double 1 lets you do it, i would assume so as that result still allows you to cast normally, you just take a wound. in this case you have no wounds to lose

[Gentlemanloser]

Brotherhood champion?

 

1: Yes.

2: Yes, powers go off as normal.

3: Don't care about Forgeworld/Apoc rules, sorry. :(  I'm sure they have thier own FAQs about Psychic Powers and Gargantuan Creatures.

[skarn]

I couldn't find any reference to the power in the GK FAQ?

 

About the apoc think, I vaguely remember gargantuan creatures not being affected by psychic powers that don't have a Str value. However the BC casts this on himself, so I guess he still takes them out a'la Khârn?

[Marshall Bretton]

huh i was sure there was something in there about it but you are right there isn't

 

im pretty sure that it affects super heavies and stuff as it isn't actually wounding whatever it strikes, it just says if it hits then the model is removed as a casualty, nothing about wounding or anything like that. it doesn't work as a psychic attack

 

in principal it works the same as lucas the tricksters stasis bomb which can take out anything in contact with him

[Axagoras]

I thought gargantuan creatures just took d3 or 3 wounds from rfg things?

[Cactus]

The appendices to Imperial Armour Apocalypse: Second Edition say that super-heavy vehicles are not affected by psychic powers that do not have a strength value, and that gargantuan creatures subject to an effect that instantly kills/removes the model instead suffer D3 wounds. I think this is very much one of those 'work it out with your opponent before the game' issues.

 

I believe the appendices are the same in each IA book, that was just the easiest one for me to reference.

[dswanick]

On the subject of Gargantuan Creatures:

"Because of their massive bulk (and sometimes multiple brains!) Gargantuan Creatures are less susceptible to psychic powers. They are not affected by psychic powers (either friendly or enemy) with the exception of those that have a Strength value, which may affect them normally."

"In addition, because they are so large and powerful, if affected by any attack that would normally kill a model automatically, for example, because of a failed Characteristic test or unique dice roll result, such attacks cause D3 wounds instead.", IA Apocalypse 6th Update.

It is debateable if Heroic Sacrifice is a "Psychic Power" or not.  It does require a Psychic Test to use but is not listed as a "Psychic Power" of the model in that unit entry line.  So it is also debateable if a GC (or Super-heavy Vehicle) could flat ignore the special rule as a Psychic Power with no Strength value.

Generally GW seems to use "removed as a casualty", "killed outright", and "suffers Instant Death" interchangeably.  In past FAQs they have even clarified this equality.  As such, any GC affected by this would only lose d3 Wounds.

 

On the issue of Super-heavy Vehicles:

"If the Psychic test is successful, the Brotherhood Champion immediately makes a single attack against one enemy model that was in base contact when he died. If this attack hits, both models are removed as casualties with no saves of any kind allowed,", C:GK, pg.26

"STRUCTURE POINTS

To represent the greater amount of damage a Super-heavy can withstand compared to a normal vehicle before it is destroyed, in their datasheets they are assigned a number of Structure Points (sometimes shortened to ‘SP’) with each Structure Point being equivalent to 3 Hull Points. Only by reducing its Structure Points to 0 can a Super-heavy vehicle be destroyed.", IA Apocalypse 6th Update

There is no direct equivalency between "removed as casualties" and "vehicle is destroyed".  And there is no equivalency between "removed as casualties" and "automaticallly suffers a Penetrating hits".  So it is debateable if a vehicle can even be affected by Heroic Sacrifice.  If you do argue that "removed as casualty" is equivalent to "vehicle is destroyed" then a Super-heavy Vehicle can not be Destroyed unless all of its Structure Points have been removed, so a Super-heavy Vehicle would ignore this special rule anyway.

 

One last thought:

"Should Lukas ever be removed from play. both players roll a dice - if the Space Wolves player rolls equal to or higher than his opponent, all models in base contact With

him are also removed from play as casualties,", C:SW, pg.26

"Q: Does Lukas the Trickster’s The Last Laugh special rule affect friendly models? How about vehicles? Or Warlord-class Titans, for that matter? (p52)

A: Yes in all three cases – it affects any unit in base contact. Stasis fields are very all-or-nothing affairs!", C:SW FAQ

Lucas' Last Laugh "removes from play as a casualty".  I don't know if this is significantly different from "removed as a casualty", but in this case GW has FAQd it to mean that any model in base contact will be removed.  One noteworthy exception being Gargantuan Creatures.  They should suffer d3 Wounds instead.  You can argue that Codex > Rulebook, and you would have to to make GWs statement that all models would be removed true.  But I'm not sure that the two rules are in conflict.

[Marshall Bretton]

my interpretation is that removed from play bypasses the imperial armour rule you stated above as it is not as a result of a failed characteristic test or anything like that. the rules don't say it is a casualty, just that it is removed from play

 

the psychic power bit is interesting as well, personally i view it as acting in a similar way to hammerhand where the model gets a bonus (in this case he gets a free attack the removes any model it hits from play)

[dswanick]

my interpretation is that removed from play bypasses the imperial armour rule you stated above as it is not as a result of a failed characteristic test or anything like that.

It doesn't have to be due to those factors, they are just examples of ways of removing casualties without recourse to the normal S vs T To-Wound rolls.

the rules don't say it is a casualty, just that it is removed from play

Sure it does:

"that was in base contact when he died. If this attack hits, both models are removed as casualties with no saves of any

kind allowed, If the attack misses,", C:GK, pg.26

[Axagoras]

"for example, because of a failed Characteristic test or unique dice roll result, such attacks cause D3 wounds instead." That roll to hit is a unique roll, its made after the model has died so it would fall into a unique roll, so it only takes d3 wounds and it makes sense. He cleaves a huge part of it off but not all of the monster. Although if hes in base with a titan it would rfg the titan.

[dswanick]

"for example, because of a failed Characteristic test or unique dice roll result, such attacks cause D3 wounds instead." That roll to hit is a unique roll, its made after the model has died so it would fall into a unique roll, so it only takes d3 wounds and it makes sense. He cleaves a huge part of it off but not all of the monster. Although if hes in base with a titan it would rfg the titan.

Just another example of how GW is biased against vehicles in favor of models with Wounds. :) http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272334-models-covering-eachother