Csm armies doing well in uk tournies.

[Brother Ambroz]

Yeah it'd be cool to see some of their lists. Especially the Guard primary / CSM secondary.

[Nehekhare]

my guess: mace DP/10 cultists/turkey

 

the finalist SW/IG army explains why air cav didn't do so well with forgeworld around:

sabre weapon platforms (IA aeronautica p. 26: 50pts with TL lascan, skyfire, interceptor, searchlight, may be chosen instead of a hvy weapon suqad as part of IG infantry platoon)

[hornywingythingy]

Yeah, sabers are such a case in point as to why its a good idea to restrict forgeworld. Though the vulture is also a good case too...

[Nehekhare]

Hm, by allowing forgeworld they indirectly restricted flyers...couldn't say which is better, but FW allows for more toys, so I'm in for that.

[hornywingythingy]

Meh, I'm fairly anti fw, to me it smacks of paying for advantage, even more so than gw normally is... Plus they write really unbalanced rules. I'm not saying fliers are good, and I definitely think gw could have done more to improve access to skyfire, but fw just grates with me. Unfortunately it is a pretty big part of the uk tournie scene atm.

[*Furyou Miko]

Sabers are only unbalanced because they provide cheap anti-air and anti-tank. They're not THAT broken. Most FW rules are just fine. It's just outliers like the super-Libarian Loth or whatever he is that skew peoples' opinion.

 

It's not "paying for advantage" when you can achieve an even bigger advantage by playing Necrons from Citadel.

[the jeske]

Specialy with that new necron bomber which removes the only down side of necron flyer builds [which were swarm armies].

[Hellios]

Sabers are only unbalanced because they provide cheap anti-air and anti-tank. They're not THAT broken. Most FW rules are just fine. It's just outliers like the super-Libarian Loth or whatever he is that skew peoples' opinion.

 

It's not "paying for advantage" when you can achieve an even bigger advantage by playing Necrons from Citadel.

 

 

Even Loth isn't that great. He is cheap for what he does, but what he does isn't the be all and end all. Although I must say that when some people accuse certain units of being broken I have to wonder if they have ever even played against... I for example don't find the Vulture to be inspiring at all, I only take one because a Vulture with punisher-cannons looks great.

 

It also isn't paying for advantage when FW stuff has sometimes been cheaper than the GW equivalent. Surely someone who buys a a box that costs over £40 from GW is paying for an advantage? That £40 is so much better in game than a unit that only costs £30. I see people complaining that Land Raiders are broken all the time. The problem is that 75% of the time it is just a case of someone having a phobia of new things/being afraid to lose. The rest of the time it is a few FW things are out of line (but I can say the same for GW) or that a person can't be bothered to play against FW; they might be preparing for a tournament where FW is not allowed, or they are just lazy and don't want to deal with new rules.

[totgeboren]

Yeah, at least here is Sweden FW costs about the same as GW. If I order say a Hell Blade from FW I would pay less than what GW wants for a Heldrake, even though in British pounds the Hell Blade is £7 more. Ok, some retailers are a bit cheaper than GW here, but the difference in price is still very small. Maybe because of this, people use FW a lot here.

What I would say is unfair about FW is that just about all CSM stuff is simply bad for the points compared to many other things. Like, we get our versions of a few SM vehicles which are simply the same, but no PotMS and a small discount which in no way compensates.

I tried my Decimator the last game I played. 215 pts for an AV 13 walker with a Butcher Cannon (essentially a Hades cannon), not even close to worth it. They charge a silly amount of points for our stuff. Though I have used my old LR Proteus, which costs about the same as the Decimator. The disruption or support to reserves is nice, especially if it holds a filer back one turn extra (as that is often enough time to move your own army in for the kill), and the two twin-lascannons actually tend to kill a lot of stuff. It's like a heavy Predator really, in elites!

 

But sure, there are some units which are maybe a bit too good. I don't mind the Sabers, as anything that reduces the amount of fliers can only be a good thing in my book. I dunno, compare FW to GW. What have GW given us? Some Necron fliers that are more or less broken for the points, the Vindicare assasain which got rules that could have been written by a 12-year old fanboi (better antitank gun than a Railgun on an infantry model?), Vendetta, a flying tri-las Predator, but cheaper, because... No one can argue it's easier to hide the Pred, as the Vendetta is either hit on 6s, or if it hovers it still gets a jink save, so no need for terrain anyway.

Simply put, the brokenness of the worst GW units are worse than the brokeness of the worst FW units, which means I would have more sympathy for someone saying "We only play FW here, no GW please" than the other way around.

[Nehekhare]

not to mention that, while there are some good things (sabres, mortis contemptors, hades assault drills, spartans, canoptek acanthrites, wraithseers, hornets is basically the whole list), there are TONS of stuff that is actually underpowered or not an advantage at all, because forgeworld designs for fluff purposes.

[hornywingythingy]

I'm sorry? A Valkyrie with a punisher gun for that cheap isn't broken? I sold my crons cos they were frankly broken IMHO, and yeah, I do think that at least with the 5th ed codexes you could pay for advantage, but, with the exception of baledrake most of the 6th ed stuff isn't even in the same league... Anyhow, I digress, I think fw is unbalanced, moreso than 40k already is, and Gw don't allow fw in their own tournies, which says something... Living in the UK I have to suck it up sometimes when I encounter it, but if I have any choice I avoid playing it like the plague, because IMHO its not balanced, and the rules are so damn expensive you won't likely know what you are facing (unless you break the law and download illegal copies of the rules, which I won't do)

 

I respect some people like fw, but I vehemently don't like it.

[the jeske]

not to mention that, while there are some good things (sabres, mortis contemptors, hades assault drills, spartans, canoptek acanthrites, wraithseers, hornets is basically the whole list), there are TONS of stuff that is actually underpowered or not an advantage at all, because forgeworld designs for fluff purposes.

only no man uses those bad things. + historicly they had some additional OP stuff the hellfire mortars[which made the base of the 2 builds I consider too good in w40k history] and the pre errate lucius pods.

 

If a tournament sceen would say ok to FW and people would actualy make armies to win ,the number of mono build codex would rise. no one would use flyers because too many people can ally in IG or take IG as main force and take sentry guns and no flyers would mean IG and necron have 1 build less , it would also automaticly mean that meq armies have it a lot easier and SW are again on top of the meq pile . even eldar runing their flyers wouldnt help [vector dancer is one very nice rule for a flyer to have] to limit them and only Kelly knows what would happen after eldar new dex hiting the shops.

So in the end FW does not give more option , it lowers the number of builds and armies people may play .

+ FW allowed ,  is some serious trolling for nid players.

[Nehekhare]

well, you see exactly what happens with FW in the BAO results.

 

Daemons won the day (5th ed + WD > 6th ed)

SW did well

IG did well

Tyranids did better than expected (out of 6 players, 4 made top 25%!)

Chaos was featured heavily (heldrakes) but didn't do very well (FW AA)

Grey Knights basically all made midfield.

Marines are pretty much everywhere to be found, with DA coming out more on top and BA more on bottom.

Necrons didn't do well (AA)

(D)Eldar made 4th, yet didn't do well overall, Orks, Sisters and Tau likewise/worse (bad FW coverage)

 

 

so jeske is basically right (exempting 'nids), yet I'd like to add that FW invalidates only those options that are based on flyers (cron air, CSM), which of course does appeal to those who don't like what flyers did to 40k at all.

 

it isn't good for CSM, as our new dex has only that one turkey build (spawn assault has yet to prove its worth imho and suffers from fatal AT issues).

 

What it seems to do is resetting the meta back to 5th ed.

 

since with 6th came the R/P/S of horde/mech/flyers, this may not be that bad...

[*Furyou Miko]

I'm sorry? A Valkyrie with a punisher gun for that cheap isn't broken? I sold my crons cos they were frankly broken IMHO, and yeah, I do think that at least with the 5th ed codexes you could pay for advantage, but, with the exception of baledrake most of the 6th ed stuff isn't even in the same league... Anyhow, I digress, I think fw is unbalanced, moreso than 40k already is, and Gw don't allow fw in their own tournies, which says something... Living in the UK I have to suck it up sometimes when I encounter it, but if I have any choice I avoid playing it like the plague, because IMHO its not balanced, and the rules are so damn expensive you won't likely know what you are facing (unless you break the law and download illegal copies of the rules, which I won't do)

 

I respect some people like fw, but I vehemently don't like it.

 

Uh, you do realise that the Vulture has no transport capacity and (with punishers) is 25 points more expensive than a Vendetta, while taking up the same slot in a regular IG army right?

 

Nobody playing competitive Imperial Guard would ever take a Vulture over a Vendetta. Ever. The only time you'll see Vultures is if someone is playing Elysians or if they really, really like Vultures.

[hornywingythingy]

See, I don't get that, in the UK nids are considered bloody good (top armies, after daemons crons and gk) and fw was allowed in that tournie where csm did well, I don't think any of the nid armies took fw. I don't think going back to the 5th ed meta is a good thing, 5th was bad.

 

And yeah, I think that's a bleedin steal at that price, considering when imp guard are redone they will up vendettas in points by about 50 points, the only reason vendettas are so cheap is when they were pointed they were only skimmers. There was at least one vulture in the battlefield birmingham tournie, and it wrecked face.

[Hellios]

See, I don't get that, in the UK nids are considered bloody good (top armies, after daemons crons and gk) and fw was allowed in that tournie where csm did well, I don't think any of the nid armies took fw. I don't think going back to the 5th ed meta is a good thing, 5th was bad.

 

And yeah, I think that's a bleedin steal at that price, considering when imp guard are redone they will up vendettas in points by about 50 points, the only reason vendettas are so cheap is when they were pointed they were only skimmers. There was at least one vulture in the battlefield birmingham tournie, and it wrecked face.

 

I play Elysians (Rules anyway...) and I dropped the unique FW stuff my Elysian army would probably be better. Vendettas with demo vets makes a mess of most things. Vulture not so much. The only thing it has really got going for it (if we talking punisher-cannons) is that it has a lot of shots. With the modifications to  the flyers rules they have got better. They are, however, still unreliable. Yeah I've had a games when one round of shooting has killed a tactical squad... Others games where I've done nothing...  Most of the time I might kill 2-3 marines. Again I guess the way glancing hits helps punisher-cannons but they I wouldn't rely on it for AT. The Vulture also used to be a skimmer.

 

From my experience in the UK nids get mixed reactions, this might partly be due to lingering members of 5th edition. Nids are however in need of a bit of a work-over as some of the units do not work (you can certainly make a competitive army) properly at the moment.

 

I put forward that overall the problem isn't with FW's rules (although some of them could do with fixing or points fixing [this goes both ways, somethings cost waaaaaaaaay too much]), but with the entire game, and how GW/FW support various armies. 'Minority' armies don't get enough support, and the core rules are not balanced internally or externally and even when they are okay their is a 60% chance that the writing is so sloppy that it will cause confusion, and another 20% chance that it will cause an outright rules conflict that can't be definitely solved one way or the other. 

[*Furyou Miko]

See, I don't get that, in the UK nids are considered bloody good (top armies, after daemons crons and gk) and fw was allowed in that tournie where csm did well, I don't think any of the nid armies took fw. I don't think going back to the 5th ed meta is a good thing, 5th was bad.

 

And yeah, I think that's a bleedin steal at that price, considering when imp guard are redone they will up vendettas in points by about 50 points, the only reason vendettas are so cheap is when they were pointed they were only skimmers. There was at least one vulture in the battlefield birmingham tournie, and it wrecked face.

 

Your argument about the Vendetta's points is moot - the same is true of the Vulture. The Vendetta is, in fact, better than the Vulture in every way except that it doesn't have Vector Dancer. If you really saw a Vulture wrecking face at Battlefield Birmingham, then it was in a favourable situation. Was it, by any chance, shooting at orks?

[Nehekhare]

http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/03/whatswrongwithimperialarmour/

[the jeske]

Tyranids did better than expected (out of 6 players, 4 made top 25%!)

nids are very unstable lists , if the opposing army can shot down biomancy your dead . lack of flyer builds also helps because there is few things nids hate more then 5 th turn vets droping down , killing your 2 tervigons[which took hits for the last 1-2 turns ] and mind blowing your guants or necron swooping down to get objectives last turn after doting you up for 4-5 turns . tau with eldar ally[that is a kings of random match] or GK[the horror match up] are always tough , if you run in to them on day 1 or first turns you can easily end up at the bottom of the ladder. But on the other hand both breeder and MC hvy lists do ok against some meq [chaos for example . nids laugh at chaos . ax lord ? welcome to t7+ . bale flamer I can always breed more. And look this tervigon is scoring etc] . but has more to do with the inability of many list to deal with biomanced MC without the use of flyers [iG ones to be more precise]. and if those flyer armies are doing bad or people are discourged to use them , nids will do better.

My main problem with nids is that they are not like , lets say DA. you can get 5-6 games with DA against different opponents and different armies and your army will sometimes to better , sometimes do worse , but it will work and you are going to play it to win[or lose] . with nids the match up decides everything . sometimes even the scenario decides everything .

 

 

 

See, I don't get that, in the UK nids are considered bloody good (top

armies, after daemons crons and gk) and fw was allowed in that tournie

where csm did well, I don't think any of the nid armies took fw. I don't

think going back to the 5th ed meta is a good thing, 5th was bad.

it is not that nids got better orhave good FW stuff[they have nothing] , but you should look at it this way . fewer mecha lists[nids hate tanks] , fewer flyer using or flyer based armies due to FW and nids start doing better.

 

 

I love the "what do" example 3++ does with sabers . mass FW for everyone would work like this . We play flyers, sloggers , swarms . FW comes in . sabers kill flyers . sabers kill sloggers you can tailor your army to counter swarm and help with killing slogger . suddenly we are back in 3ed with 2 gunlines which are almost identical facing of against each other . ah and nids crying in the back of the room.

[hornywingythingy]

 

 

See, I don't get that, in the UK nids are considered bloody good (top armies, after daemons crons and gk) and fw was allowed in that tournie where csm did well, I don't think any of the nid armies took fw. I don't think going back to the 5th ed meta is a good thing, 5th was bad.

 

And yeah, I think that's a bleedin steal at that price, considering when imp guard are redone they will up vendettas in points by about 50 points, the only reason vendettas are so cheap is when they were pointed they were only skimmers. There was at least one vulture in the battlefield birmingham tournie, and it wrecked face.

Your argument about the Vendetta's points is moot - the same is true of the Vulture. The Vendetta is, in fact, better than the Vulture in every way except that it doesn't have Vector Dancer. If you really saw a Vulture wrecking face at Battlefield Birmingham, then it was in a favourable situation. Was it, by any chance, shooting at orks?

Dark eldar with eldar allies, one of the podcasters reporting from the tournie faced it. It was in an ig armoured company. Meh, I think we will just have to agree to disagree, you seem very pro fw, I'm anti it, I don't think either of us are gonna change the others opinion, for example to me, vector dancer is a major plus.

[Hellios]

 

 

 

See, I don't get that, in the UK nids are considered bloody good (top armies, after daemons crons and gk) and fw was allowed in that tournie where csm did well, I don't think any of the nid armies took fw. I don't think going back to the 5th ed meta is a good thing, 5th was bad.

 

And yeah, I think that's a bleedin steal at that price, considering when imp guard are redone they will up vendettas in points by about 50 points, the only reason vendettas are so cheap is when they were pointed they were only skimmers. There was at least one vulture in the battlefield birmingham tournie, and it wrecked face.

Your argument about the Vendetta's points is moot - the same is true of the Vulture. The Vendetta is, in fact, better than the Vulture in every way except that it doesn't have Vector Dancer. If you really saw a Vulture wrecking face at Battlefield Birmingham, then it was in a favourable situation. Was it, by any chance, shooting at orks?

Dark eldar with eldar allies, one of the podcasters reporting from the tournie faced it. It was in an ig armoured company. Meh, I think we will just have to agree to disagree, you seem very pro fw, I'm anti it, I don't think either of us are gonna change the others opinion, for example to me, vector dancer is a major plus.

 

The DE army is maybe one of the few exceptions where a Vulture with Punishers would do a lot of damage to something that isn't infantry. On the other hand DE should be able to take out a Vulture... I might guess that combined with the armoured company the DE player didn't know what to shoot at.

[the jeske]

armored company main , IG normal codex using sentry guns as ally . so blastastic . also it drips with 100% fluff .

actualy . hmm I have some old SW sentry towers and am sure I had a armored company in 3ed. that may actualy be my " hi , I am Yeske , Welcome to HEll" list to play against new players.