Implications of Chaos Divination

[CitadelArmyGuy]

With the advent of the new Chaos Daemons codex, Chaos joins to Loyalists in access to the games' most reliable Force Multiplier--- Prescience.

 

As a Blood Angel player, use of Prescience is a staple of gameplay. Now that Heralds of Tzeentch can access the power for a cheap as 45pts (+90pts for a Troops unit), my mind is already salivating at the thought of Prescienced Obliterators, Plague Marines and the like.

 

What does the CSM community think? Deadweight points or Golden Opportunities?

[Vesper]

The only thing I use to kill my enemies is a trio of Baledrakes. The rest of my army is on its knees and chants the glory of the Dark Gods.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Ok for all the players who actually have imaginations out there (j/k Vesper, not a personal insult )

I know the Herald can only join Tzeentch units, which creates an issue since otherwise he'll just be shot Turn1. So that means 90points for a 10man Horrors unit-- which is fine if simply used to babysit a home objective (letting you take 1 less unit of Cultists to fulfill the same duty).

So the question is this: Should Horrors be taken to satisfy the Troops+Bodyguard function? Or should a different Tzeentch unit be taken to act as Bodyguard, meaning any other Troops type could be taken that would provide more utility.

And the final question of course-- is it worth it? Going through the trouble just to secure a Prescience caster? Then of course, you could always leave Heralds alone... and go for a Lord of Change. Any takers?

[Brother Ambroz]

I thought that Heralds could only be taken if Daemons were the primary detatchment? I don't have the book just going off the rumors but that's what they were saying...

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Codex here in front of me. If Daemons are the Primary Detachment, then you take 4 Heralds per 1 HQ Slot.

 

There is no mention in any direction about modifiers towards taking Heralds in an Allied Detachment. Permissive ruleset means Allied Heralds at 1 for 1 HQ slot.

[*Furyou Miko]

You're probably better off with a Lord of Change than a Herald in an allied detachment, though. He brings a lot more bang.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Just realized if you mark your Obliterators with MoT, then the Herald of Tzeentch can join them. Interesting thought, and keeps you from having to take terrible Horrors to satisfy Troops requirement.

[Narse]

Heralds of Tzeentch have Daemonic Instability which requires a unit with this rule cannot be joined by a model without this special rule.....

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Just realized if you mark your Obliterators with MoT, then the Herald of Tzeentch can join them. Interesting thought, and keeps you from having to take terrible Horrors to satisfy Troops requirement.

 

Do Heralds suffer Instability?  I was told that Instable models can only join units of Instable models, and only Instable models can join units of Instable models.  (I can't really be bothered to buy the C:D dex because, well, I don't care, so I might be talking out of my fourth point of contact).

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Close Deus, very close. Fortunately (codex quote):

 

 

Daemonic Instability

"A Unit with this special rule cannot be joined by a model without this special rule."

 

If the Herald was being joined by the Oblits then it would be illegal, but they are not. The Oblits are being joined by the Herald. This is not semantics, this is the correct interpretation in conjunction with how the IC rules are written.

 

So Chaos Marine ICs cannot join Instable Units. However, Codex:Daemon ICs may join any Unit entirely composed of Daemon models of the same alignment (Daemonic Alignment Rule).

 

So Codex:Daemon ICs may join Oblits, Mutilators, and Warp Talons so long as they are all aligned to the same Chaos God and no non-Daemon ICs also join to that Unit.

[Urauloth]

There's nothing about ICs with the rule not being able to join units without?

 

Also, don't they have to join units with the "daemon of X" rule, rather than "mark of X" (which is what obliterators have, even though they also have the daemon USR)

 

e; I haven't seen the codex, of course, so I don't know

[CitadelArmyGuy]

The Daemonic Alignment rules do NOT use the terms 'Daemon of X' nor do they use 'Mark of X'

 

They say:

 

 

Daemons can only join units that are composed entirely of Daemons with the same alignment as themselves.

[totgeboren]

I'm thinking of a lvl 3 LoC with all divination and one 'lvl 3' reward and one 'lvl 2' reward (I forgot the terms).

However, this setup could potentially lead to a LoC with no ranged ability at all, which is a bit wasteful, considering his BS and ability to shoot twice. On the other hand, he could get one or two powerful shooting attacks from his rewards, none which would require psychic power rolls. And if he doesn't get any shooting powers, he will probably be pretty powerful in cc anyway, especially if he rolls a 5 on the Divination table, getting to reroll most of his rolls in cc.

 

I'm simply thinking that point for point, a LoC gives more utility to a CSM army than a Tzeentch Herald. The LoC can try to take down fliers, and is easier to reposition than the herald (unless he flies around on a disk), but the difference in resilience and cc ability between the two is huge.

 

On the other hand, the herald wouldn't mind staying at the back, whilst the LoC is wasted by just hanging in the backfield. The Herald can guard an objective with his horror homies. However, for the Horrors to do anything (considering their horrible BS), they need the Herald to cast Prescience on them, and that defeats the purpose behind bringing a Divination Herald in the first place. He is supposed to buff other units, not lift Horrors into 'ok' territory. 3 out of 6 Divination powers are also quite bad for the Herald, when most are good for the LoC.

 

All in all, I think the Herald is best used as a lvl 2 or 3 caster, with the Primaris Divination power, one Change power, and one from either. One more Change power will always bring some utility, whilst one more Divination could prove to be a dud. Maybe roll for Divination first, if you get a great one, roll again, if not, change for the Primaris and roll the rest on the Change table.

 

The LoC on the other hand can provide a great deal of utility by going all Divination, acting as a force multiplier for a CSM spearhead. As he is likely to get some shooty reward anyway, his warp charges can be used for buffing and debuffing, whilst still bringing the pain. :)

[Nehekhare]

~300pts for twin-linking BS4 -.-

[Lepaca]

If you want something from C:CD and you want to put it into your army list you might as well take a tzeentch herald for divination.

Filling up the allies slot only for him is a bad idea though.

[Brother Ambroz]

What units would prescience work well for in our lists? Autocannon havocs, forgefiends and maybe oblits. Anything else? Really I don't see the need for too much rerolling but I could be missing something. I think I'd rather have a LoC rather than herald anyway. LoC definitely seems far more resilient.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

How much better than a stock LoC is Kairos?  Does he have access to Divination?

[Fibonacci]

  I can't really be bothered to buy the C:D dex because, well, I don't care

 

 

How much better than a stock LoC is Kairos?  Does he have access to Divination?

 

Go Fish?

[totgeboren]

The big idea behind using a LoC instead of a Herald is that the LoC can more or less spearhead an assault whilst buffing the CSM around him and debuffing the enemy. The Herald will be busy buffing himself and his unit so they do anything, and probably using his precious warp charges to shoot too. The LoC has got a fairly good chance of getting some useful shooting that doesn't require any warp charge, meaning he can do more useful things with his psychics.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

  I can't really be bothered to buy the C:D dex because, well, I don't care

 

 

>How much better than a stock LoC is Kairos?  Does he have access to Divination?

 

Go Fish?

 

 

Well played, sir.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

What units would prescience work well for in our lists? Autocannon havocs, forgefiends and maybe oblits. Anything else? Really I don't see the need for too much rerolling but I could be missing something. I think I'd rather have a LoC rather than herald anyway. LoC definitely seems far more resilient.

Chaos Bikers would work amazing with some Prescience-love. Blood Angels require Prescience just to break even in the melee-game these days--- now please know that I understand Shooting is King in 6th Edition. That being said, I love taking hybrid lists that still incorporate a flexible melee contingent.

 

Chaos Bikers with Prescience are going to amp up their already excellent firepower to incredible levels. It seems like a Herald would be a good idea for buffing Dakkaforgefiends or AC Havocs as you mentioned, but the LoC would be better for escorting Bikers on an assault advance.

 

As far as Fateweaver versus generic LoC ---- Fatey is garbage in melee. Fateweaver is WS1, I2, A1 ...... versus LoC is WS6, I6, A5. That's really all you need to know.

[Brother Ambroz]

A dakka forgefiend with prescience would be expensive but that seems like it would be amazing with 8 hades autocannon shots. Be enough to likely take down just about any flyer in the game.

 

Yeah a large biker group with plasma and prescience would be pretty awesome too. Rapid fire and then rerolls on the charge too.....ouch.

 

Edit: All of these would be so much easier if only they could join our squads. Just highlights again that crippling weakness......

[totgeboren]

A Dakkafiend with Prescience cast on it could use its Daemonforge special rule, which would most likely deliver some results.

 

Though, the more I think about it, taking anything just for the Divination buffs don't seem worth it. Yey, I can twin-link something, or I could just use the points to buy one (or two!) more of whatever I was giving the reroll buff to.

 

But I still think a LoC could bring a lot of utility, even without taking Divination into consideration.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

The main benefit to Prescience is the Concentration and Flexibility aspects.

Prescience allows you to cast a multiplier onto the Critical Unit in your battle plan, giving a huge boost to reliability of performance. People scoff at why you need to Prescience BS4, but then again how many times have both of those Biker meltaguns missed when shooting that critical enemy Dreadnought/Land Raider?

Flexibility to apply reroll missed hits wherever it is needed has pulled games out of the fire for me on countless occasions. Now, whether that is worth investing in a LoC is questionable and completely list and strategy dependant. However, 45pts for a HoT is more than justifiable in a vast majority of cases.

If you play pure-shooting lists, then you probably won't need him. But for Hybrid lists with melee Units, rerolling hits is a much bigger effect than you might think. Rerolling a 4+ is statistically better than a flat 3+. Rerolling a 3+ is better than a flat 2+.

[the jeske]

However, 45pts for a HoT is more than justifiable in a vast majority of cases.

how is he going to keep up with those bikers ?

I understand the idea , just like others said re-rolling dakka fiend or AC havocks , but the cost of taking it so high you could buy another unit with it . so for us to need those we would have to be out of free slots and buffs to our firebase.

 

 

 

 

If the Herald was being joined by the Oblits then it would be illegal,

but they are not. The Oblits are being joined by the Herald. This is not

semantics, this is the correct interpretation in conjunction with how

the IC rules are written.

didnt we have an argument about this when TWC werent joined by a outlfank stealh HQ [illegal] but it was the HQ who was being joined by the TWC ?