Implications of Chaos Divination

[CitadelArmyGuy]

 

However, 45pts for a HoT is more than justifiable in a vast majority of cases.

how is he going to keep up with those bikers ?

I understand the idea , just like others said re-rolling dakka fiend or AC havocks , but the cost of taking it so high you could buy another unit with it . so for us to need those we would have to be out of free slots and buffs to our firebase.

 

 

> 

 

If the Herald was being joined by the Oblits then it would be illegal,

but they are not. The Oblits are being joined by the Herald. This is not

semantics, this is the correct interpretation in conjunction with how

the IC rules are written.

didnt we have an argument about this when TWC werent joined by a outlfank stealh HQ [illegal] but it was the HQ who was being joined by the TWC ?

 

Prescience has a 12" range, then the Bikers can move 12" more (24" if you throw them into screening position where they can Overwatch+accept a Charge). I see that as pretty flexible, but that's me. There's no requirement to keep up with the Unit, from my experience the Charge is by far the most important part of a melee and Prescience will be needed elsewhere after the charge.

 

The mandatory Troops from Daemons you take have demi-fearless (essentially better than fearless when facing a pure shooting list, which is usually all that matters for an objective squatter unit) so I don't see those as wasted points. So 45points for Prescience is really the question -- the 90pts for a single homebase objective holder isn't a problem.

 

For the second portion: HQs are never 'joined by' Units. HQs always do the joining. It is clear as day on Page 39 regarding Independent Characters. You'll have to enlighten me as to any past furor involving SW if those objections exactly mirror the situation going on here-- I'm willing to be schooled, no sense in being wrong if smarter minds have already solved the problem.

[Nehekhare]

"Daemons can only join units that are composed entirely of Daemons of the same alignment as themselves" (C:CD, p.44)

 

Units from C:CSM with the Daemon USR do not have an alignment. A Mark does not make an oblit a "daemon of x". no joining either way.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

"Daemons can only join units that are composed entirely of Daemons of the same alignment as themselves" (C:CD, p.44)

 

Units from C:CSM with the Daemon USR do not have an alignment. A Mark does not make an oblit a "daemon of x". no joining either way.

See I read that same sentence from my C:CD and I interpret it exactly the opposite way.

 

The problem is "alignment" is never strictly defined, meaning a Mark aligns a model just as much as a 'Daemon of' special rule aligns a model. There is simply no definition to either interpretation.

[Nehekhare]

The problem is "alignment" is never strictly defined

look at p.44: The caption says "Daemonic Alignment" and the 4 "Daemon of x" are listed right underneath. This is as strict as it gets.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

 

The problem is "alignment" is never strictly defined

look at p.44: The caption says "Daemonic Alignment" and the 4 "Daemon of x" are listed right underneath. This is as strict as it gets.

Oh I'm with you I see your argument for sure. Problem is the word "alignment" or "aligns" is never ever used anywhere in any of the separate section parargraphs for the descriptions for any of the 'Daemon of X' rules.

 

I'm not trying to be obtuse or combative, please know that. I just legitimately feel that "Alignment to a Chaos God" is never strictly defined and therefore open to interpretation.

[Nehekhare]

everything is open to interpretation. doesn't mean it is legitimate

you don't even have to look at other sections. just look at that same paragraph: not only are the definitions of "daemon of x" listed under "daemonic alignment", but also each "daemon of x" includes the "daemon" USR.

Every "daemon of x" is a "daemon" - but for the claim of possible joining to be true, every "daemon" would also have to be a "daemon of x" (since exclusively only those can be joined).

So the burden of proof belongs to the one claiming they may be joined, not the other way round (in which case ambiguity may have been an argument).

Since there is no basis in the rules for the claim that all daemons (marked or unmarked, blonde or red-haired) simultaneously are "daemons of x" as defined under "Daemonic alignment" (C:CD p.44), it cannot be proven. (in fact, it is disproven by obliterators being "daemons" only, since "daemon of x"/"Daemonic alignment" is a special rule of C:CD and thus does not apply to C:CSM)

So the claim is false.

if anybody brings up the argument again, watch him try to prove his claim with a paragraph that describes how marks from C:CSM turn a general USR into a special rule from another codex.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

everything is open to interpretation. doesn't mean it is legitimate

So the burden of proof belongs to the one claiming they may join, not the other way round.

I thought it was a permissive ruleset?

At either length, I'll wave the white flag and concede the point. I probably wouldn't exercise the option anyway because MoN is too important for Oblits anyway, and I never take Mutis or WTs because they are fairly bad value.

[Trevak Dal]

The only thing I use to kill my enemies is a trio of Baledrakes. The rest of my army is on its knees and chants the glory of the Dark Gods.

It's sad there's so few Chaos Space Marines in many Chaos Space Marine armies. They let the megazords do all the work. It is our One Thing though I guess...

 

Also, regarding anything from Codex Daemons joining Codex Chaos Cultists and Heldrakes, it seems they have made it quite clear that nothing from Codex Daemons can join anything from Codex Chaos Cultists and Heldrakes, End Of.

[the jeske]

 

Prescience has a 12" range, then the Bikers can move 12" more (24" if

you throw them into screening position where they can Overwatch+accept a

Charge). I see that as pretty flexible, but that's me. There's no

requirement to keep up with the Unit, from my experience the Charge is

by far the most important part of a melee and Prescience will be needed

elsewhere after the charge.

So you take a mini horror unit and a herald siting in the home base . how long is the the biker unit , because again am having problem with seeing how the herald keeps being in range with them , unless he is moving up the field , but then you have a small unit of horrors and the herald ready to give up firstblood.

 

 

 

 

For the second portion: HQs are never 'joined by' Units. HQs always do

the joining. It is clear as day on Page 39 regarding Independent

Characters. You'll have to enlighten me as to any past furor involving

SW if those objections exactly mirror the situation going on here-- I'm

willing to be schooled, no sense in being wrong if smarter minds have

already solved the problem.

am just saying I remember the same way of thining a year or so ago from someone in the SW subforum . TWC cant be joined by non TWC models and the outflank/stealth saga could be given only to a foot HQ . So someone claimed he is not joining the HQ with the TWC [illegal] , but joining the TWC with the HQ .

[Kallistus]

I think if I was dead set on getting Divination in my army I would to take LoC, and the smallest squad of nurglings possible. The LoC is mobile enough that you can get it where you need it, and a fairly large threat on its own. The nurglings are the cheapest troops daemons have costing half as much as most of their option, and can infiltrate which could possibly be handy. While the herald is cheap, but dies easy. This makes it hard to put him where you need him, unless you upgrade to a disk or chariot. Neither of these would dramatically increase his survivability, but do make him less cost effective. 

 

Ultimately the LoC is probably to big of a point sink, but would be at least capable of doing the job. They're also a cool model which doesn't hurt.

[Shuggnuggath]

A lord of change also gives you the option to take a less combat focused CSM HQ like a sorcerer and let the Lord of Change do all the face smashing stuff.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I've always liked the LOC model, got an old metal one I need to paint... and the idea of the various divination powers is nice, a predator with Autocannon and lascannon sponsons for when you really want to doom an enemy target, or just want to make sure that terminator unit using there combi weapons hit with them could be nice, and anything that reduces the effectiveness of cover is good.

It's just fitting them in that's the problem, even if I take just a lord of change and 10 horrors, not sure what to drop from my Thousand sons to use them...

[totgeboren]

A LoC with Precognition will likely kill half a squad of MEQs per turn, whilst suffering very little damage in return, and if he gets Rampage and Rage you are looking at one hell of a flying monster! Up to 10 attacks on the charge, rerolling to-hit and to-wound at a pretty high I with Ap2. Three rolls on the Divination table gives you a pretty good chance of getting it too (three rolls gives you a 62% chance of getting it, if you really want it).

Just brutal for a model that can buff the units around it too, and take on enemy fliers. It might very well be worth those around 300 pts you have to shell out for it. 

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Hmmm Must admit, I'm just not sure about the codex price, as these guys were when I first thought of starting chaos, ie just before the previosu chaos codex came out, and after having just paid for the chaos marine one.. may see if a mate of mine who loves all things nurgle would be willing to share/split it, or look at an online retailer, as £30 just for the codex is nasty, especially for a faction that used to be in our codex.

What do people think of the LOC being on anti flyer duty? Would he be able to deal with most of the fliers out there?

[Kallistus]

Generally the LoC isn't going to be to reliable on anti-flyer. You may roll on some chart some where that gives him something good to use on a flyer, but who knows. 

 

I wouldn't take 10 horrors. They won't accomplish much, and are not very versatile. a minimum squad of Nurgling cost half as much, have more wounds, same toughness, can infiltrate, and are shrouded. Just keep them away from blasts/templates lol

[*Furyou Miko]

Yes, but then you're mixing Nurgle and Tzeentch and that will just get a Herald killed (since he has no retinue) and will curse your dice luck forever.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

What Miko said, the fact I don't like the look of any Nurgle models, and have about 10-15 of the old metal horrors mean's I'd use them, I also have some flamers, but not sure if they would be worth it at AP4.

[Kallistus]

I was talking about maybe taking a Lord of Change instead of a herald so he wouldn't need a retinue, and would be mobile enough to use Divination where you need it. Also the herald plus retinue seems a bit limited in usefulness when you consider how many points it takes to get him on the table. I'm not sure if the LoC would be any better considering how much he cost though. Still I think it would be fun.

 

If I took a herald I definitely would want some horrors for him to hide in. The problem with horrors is that with their current rules they don't do much unless at the max squad size. A small squad is pure tax for the a LoC, with the herald its a bit better since they can be his retinue. If I were to use a ten man squad of them I would consider that upgraded banner and deepstrike them near one of my opponents weaker units. 

 

And you need some Nurgle with your Tzeentch otherwise he gets snooty. You're right though not fluffy at all.

[Nehekhare]

Codex Chaos Cultists and Heldrakes

"Codex: Heldrakes". This goes straight into my little box of methodically negative vocabulary, right besides C:CSMeh! :)

[Iron Sage]

Herald with small (or large, your choice) unit of screamer on disc. Can then project re-rolls as he moves fast and is decently durable as he is protected by screamers.

[Xenith]

~300pts for twin-linking BS4 -.-

 

300Pts for twinlinking BS4 terminators with plasma guns, who can then assault, rerolling misses.

[Kallistus]

Herald with small (or large, your choice) unit of screamer on disc. Can then project re-rolls as he moves fast and is decently durable as he is protected by screamers.

Not a bad idea as you can also use the screamers to help the bikes out in an assault if necessary. You still end up paying an additional tax with the troop choice, but probably would still be the cheapest way to field an effective herald. 

[Nehekhare]

300Pts for twinlinking BS4 terminators with plasma guns, who can then assault, rerolling misses.

for 300 pts you get another 8 of those terminators.

[Ammonius]

Codex Chaos Cultists and Heldrakes

"Codex: Heldrakes". This goes straight into my little box of methodically negative vocabulary, right besides C:CSMeh!

I think I need to name my Warhound Titan "Methodicus Infitialis"

Wait... would a Titan count as a friendly unit?

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Generally the LoC isn't going to be to reliable on anti-flyer. You may roll on some chart some where that gives him something good to use on a flyer, but who knows. 

 

I wouldn't take 10 horrors. They won't accomplish much, and are not very versatile. a minimum squad of Nurgling cost half as much, have more wounds, same toughness, can infiltrate, and are shrouded. Just keep them away from blasts/templates lol

Key thing to note is that Nurglings have Swarm rule, meaning they do not score. Huge hit against taking them.

 

 

I think the LoC is priced well compared to a CSM DP and fixes many of the original issues causing criticism of the CSM DP.

 

It seems like a BT is actually worse for an army selection than a LoC, because at least a LoC is both excellent in combat AND buffs the Units around him, whereas a BT is a BT and does nothing for Force Multiplication.

 

LoC for 280 points gives you WS6, BS6, S6, T6, W5, I6, A5, Ld9, 5++ as well as 2 Greater and 1 Lesser Gift. (Personal sidenote-- is it just me, or is the Greater Rewards table better than the Exalted Rewards table which is supposed to be superior?). So 4 out of 6 results on the Greater Rewards table improve survivability, and the last 2 are offensive --- a 24" Str8 AP1 Lance shot OR Melee attacks gain Armorbane+Fleshbane.

 

So that means he is a FMC with T6 W5 5++ (reroll 1s) with HIGH probability of picking up either one or two of:

• +1W and IWND
• FnP (4+)
• Reroll all failed Invulns
• 3+ Armor Save

Now don't get me wrong, a GuO is still the king of survivability--- but you have the remember the LoC is also getting 2 Divination powers. Forewarning, Misfortune, Precognition and Scriers Gaze (if you have Flyers or Reserves) are amazing for this guy while Foreboding and Perfect Timing can swap for Prescience.

 

Oh yea, and that 10pt Lesser Reward? The table is crap. Trade for a Staff of Change -- Str+2, AP4, Concussive. BUT he's a MC, so all attacks are AP2! SO yea, LoC with staff is Str8. Boom.

 

I'm gonna be honest I'm really liking the LoC guys.