Chaos at close combat

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Hello all!

I am a Space Wolves player however I'm interested in throwing another Army into the mix. When I decided to get into 40k I knew I wanted an Army with really awesome (and useful) characters. I also thought I wanted a very close combat oriented Army. I was under the impression that since the SW's had such a barbaric look that they were a in your face combat styled Army... Now that I have the Dex, the units, and the knowledge I know different. 

 

SO... 
How do the Chaos Space Marines compare to the Blood Angels (and other Armies) as far as Close Combat BAMF's go? Do CSMs offer me what I am looking for? In all honesty I think the whole demon worshiping thing is kinda lame.. and I don't really like how a lot of their guys are modeled. But last weekend I played against them for the first time and my opponent and I were like minded on the matter.. he told me that he likes to think of his guys as Rebellious, ravenous, hardcore thugs of the universe.. And since they do have so pretty BAMF looking dudes and rules I would probably run them the same way. 

Thoughts?

[Urauloth]

Honestly, unless you're really into the CSM fluff and minis (which it doesn't sound as though you are) I can't really advise you to take up a CSM army if close combat hitting power is what you're after. I'm not really sure why you're looking at moving away from space wolves? With counterattack as standard and know no fear, grey hunters are actually a better melee unit than basic CSM squads, although a mark of khorne does make them better on the charge if you shell out the points for it.

 

Berserkers are a great melee unit, except that unlike space wolves, they have no reliable or cost-efficient way of actually getting into close combat. Nothing in the chaos codex has the close-range power of thunderwolf cavalry, and our terminators can't take storm shields (or be carried into battle by worthwhile land raiders) so I'm really not sure what close combat advantages a CSM army could offer you over the faction you already play, aside from some powerful HQ choices.

 

Compared to blood angels, we don't have access to army-wide jump packs, fast transports, flying transports, or any equivalent to sanguinary priests, so you're probably better off there, too.

 

I'm not saying CSM are a bad army, there's definitely some good stuff in the codex (even if most of us found it somewhat disappointing) but it usually isn't the assault units.

[chillin]

Yeah as ghost sz, chaos, for the most part, plays alot like SW's (in fact I started using SW dex to represent my all undivided BL army, when I got so absolutely sick of the last chaos dex that I couldnt play it anymore, and also so I could use my converted dreads and juggers). But like ghost sz chaos doesnt have a good delivery system. If you want something that is CC oriented and plays (and looks) totally different then marines, I would suggest nids. Maybe some one in your group or game store would let you try them a couple of times before u shell out $$.

[AekoldHelbrass]

Well, you can just borrow a codex from someone and try a game or two. I'm really into Chaos and I really want close combat army, but I'm getting beaten by BA jump army every time, they are just better at CC than we are, that's it. The only thing you can do better with CSM is to make your army not another marine army but mix everything, take 3 units of zombies, take double dragon, take some bikers (the only CC-oriented unit that is better than BAs one), then you can win, and still not by punching everyone in face.

[totgeboren]

You don't play chaos for the rules, you play them because you like the models and/or background. Think of them like loyalists, but worse.

 

SW make a much better 'counter-assault' type army than CSM, and BA make better assault armies. Chaos got maybe the best flier in the game, at the same level as the Vendetta, and that seems to be the only unit keeping the codex floating in competitive settings.

 

Funnily, the only close combat units I have had any success with are Possessed of all things. Termies are ok, but they don't hit like Hammernators, and no sweep means even loyalists just back away and shoot them to bits. My Spawn also work ok because of their speed, but they struggle to inflict any damage against anything with a little defence. And now with the new Daemon codex, I would rather take Fleshhounds, who seem to be simply better for the task and points.

 

I'm not trying to sound all doom-and-gloom, but the CSM codex got some real problems when it comes to close combat, even if they look like they would excel at it. The parts that sort of work in CC are the 'chaotic' choices, so if you don't like daemon worship and warp taint, I would advice you to pick up BA instead.

[Aidoneus]

Not all Chaos is made up of the original legions, and there are lots of renegade space marines in the fluff. They would be far less mutated, possibly not at all, and would just look like evil, blood-soaked spacies.

 

For CC, Chaos does give you some advantages. Our lords, special characters, and daemon princes are fantastic melee brutes. Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, and basic CSMs can all be pretty decent CC units, although Troops isn't really where you'll find your heavy hitters (which is fine). Fast Attack is full of excellent options, like the tar-pitting Spawn and cheap Bikers (not to mention the heldrake, which isn't CC, but is awesome). Elites aren't amazing, but helbrutes are cheap support units that can help give you armor saturation, and our termies are still dirt cheap and can be pretty nasty in melee. Finally, HS can give you 3 Maulerfiends, which will close the gap with the enemy terrifyingly quickly.

 

For a good melee army, I would start off by taking:

Khorne lord: bike, sigil of corruption, axe of blind fury

3 Maulerfiends: tendrils

2-3 cheap Troops units

3 large biker units

 

If that doesn't fill your points requirements, you could consider adding a nurgle biker lord and upgrading your troops to plague marines, or perhaps adding a winged Tzeentch daemon prince with black mace and power armour, or even just throwing in some termies to deep-strike. I think the key to a good chaos CC list is speed, speed, and more speed. Very few armies can deal with 3 maulerfiends, 3 bike squads, a bike lord, and possibly a winged prince from hitting their lines turn 2.

[the jeske]

but chaos lords arent better then what he can get from SW lords and while fiends have a 12" fixed charge range they struggle in melee against non AV targets , because of the low number of attacks they have.

[Deadman Wade]

All Chaos units with VotLW beat their SM/BA/DA/SW counterparts easily, Berzerkers can beat anything, except units with some nasty CC HQ character, and I don't find famous TH/SS terminators that great at all. But since those marines know that, they would just sit in cover and blast melee chaos army with superior firepower, and with just standard rhino and Land Raiders as transports it's very hard to get into melee.

Funny thing is that chaos units that supposed to be dedicated melee - mutilators, warp talons and possessed - are not that good for killing something that's not a tactical marine, while generalists like bikers are actually doing well at CC.

[AekoldHelbrass]

All Chaos units with VotLW beat their SM/BA/DA/SW counterparts easily, Berzerkers can beat anything, except units with some nasty CC HQ character, and I don't find famous TH/SS terminators that great at all.

Although that statement in vacuum may be true, on the table it works differently.

 

Have you ever seen Death Company deathstar on charge? 10 terminators are massacred in 1 turn, and that's without PW. Berserkers are just children in comparison. Priest that gives FNP and holds PW basically allows BA to win every round of close combat by 2-3, even against berserkers. And berserkers are only good for 1 turn, they're useless afterwards.

 

The only unit in the codex that REALLY beats MEQ in CC are warp talons, and even they are only good in vacuum, because of lack of grenades and reliable delivery system.

[Deadman Wade]

Although that statement in vacuum may be true, on the table it works differently.

 

Have you ever seen Death Company deathstar on charge? 10 terminators are massacred in 1 turn, and that's without PW. Berserkers are just children in comparison. Priest that gives FNP and holds PW basically allows BA to win every round of close combat by 2-3, even against berserkers. And berserkers are only good for 1 turn, they're useless afterwards.

 

The only unit in the codex that REALLY beats MEQ in CC are warp talons, and even they are only good in vacuum, because of lack of grenades and reliable delivery system.

Yep, full DC with a chaplain in a LRC is a better unit than berzerkers with no CC HQ. Without a chaplain though, charging berzerkers would win against a DC. Both need a LR to carry them though.

And as for a priest, it's 50pts without PW and jump pack, CSM or raptors of equal cost would still beat ASM or Tacs even with him.

I'm not saying that going full melee against other marines is a great idea, but you can expect that chaos units will do well in melee with them.

[derpasaurus]

I knew I'd see jeske up here talking about how we're not as good as SW. lol :(

2 words: Abaddon & Chosen.

TDA character with ap3 or ap2, up to a dozen attacks on the charge and every mark of chaos. a unit (that Abby makes scoring!) of 10 guys that depending on how you build and mark them can have up to 6 special weapons in a squad of 10, and 50 attacks on the charge, or 40 on I5, or at T5... yeah. 

 

Saw something here that gave me an idea the other day. Abby and 2 Chosen with rhinos, 2 or 3 mid to large blobs of cultists, bikes, assorted heavy support. Job done.

 

[Brother Ambroz]

Give the zerker unit Khârn and then see who wins vs the DC.

 

Really there are decent CC options for us, not nearly as much as for BA or SW but we do have some. Our basic squads can be kitted out to be great all around units. Each mark has its own benefits for CC (with Tzeentch being the exception). We've got AoBF jugger or biker lords and daemon princes with black maces are still gnarly. Add to that some khorne or slannesh daemons as allies and you've got a decent CC army. As CSM we're better off as a balanced shooty force though.

[the jeske]

2 words: Abaddon & Chosen.

because they make a better base for an actual list then logan and WG[and event hat I wouldnt class as good .more like a fluff list].

 

 

 

All Chaos units with VotLW beat their SM/BA/DA/SW counterparts easily,

Berzerkers can beat anything, except units with some nasty CC

we dont have hidde power ax , we dont have MoTW , nothing our icons do compare to what the SW icon does.

 

all it takes for a SW to beat almost all our units in melee is to pop totem and have a +2sv model in the GH unit .

[Bloody Legionnaire]

delete

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

I do think many of the Chaos units look really cool. I'd model them a

little different (the GW aspiring champion models looks really awesome

with that axe and the knife and his armor.. I just don't like the

tongues and faces coming out of his armor)

 

 

I would by no means be leaving the Space Wolves. I do really like them

and they'll continue to be my main army. That said, however, lets face

it the Space Wolves are not "I will assault you and break your face"

like Blood Angels are. Actually after playing my opponent last weekend

(well seasoned player new to Chaos Space marines though) and seeing all

of the extra attacks and rerolls of 1's and Characters/lords that had 2+

invulnerable saves.... I must say I think they were much much better at

CC. The game was a draw.. and I actually would have won if I had known

grenades would have allowed my Thunder Wolves to strike at their

initiative instead of I1... BUT his Berzerkers and other units were just

straight slapping my grey hunters no problem. They had waaayy more

attacks than I could conjure up.. and because of the rerolls left very

little room for me to capitalize. Wolves are good at many things.. but

they are still a shoot you while you charge me then I counter charge

you, defensive kind of Army.. and not a I'm going to tear you limb from

limb in assault with my BAMF units. They have a few decent HQ choices

but even Logan Grimnar if through into CC has a good chance of dying

very easily in a challenge. Especially since he has that piss poor 4+

invuln.

 

 

So consensus is blood angels would be more of what I'm looking for?

 

 

The other thing I don't like about the Space Wolves is no flyers. Not

that I feel I need them to be competitive. I have always likes aircraft

and was very disappointed when I found out the Space Wolves were not

allowed any flyers.

 

 

 

 

 

All Chaos units with VotLW beat their SM/BA/DA/SW counterparts easily,

Berzerkers can beat anything, except units with some nasty CC

we dont have hidde power ax , we dont have MoTW , nothing our icons do compare to what the SW icon does.

 

all it takes for a SW to beat almost all our units in melee is to pop totem and have a +2sv model in the GH unit .

 

 

Highly disagree with this statement. 2+ sv is NOTHING compared to the ability you have to re-roll 1s.. I love Termi's but there have been too many times where I'm like "oh Armor save HAH 2+ I got this" and that nasty 1 rears it's ugly head.

[totgeboren]

I just have to point out that CSM can't get a better inv save than 3+, and that is by taking a sigil of corruption (4+ inv) and the Mark of Tzeentch (+1 to inv saves), which means you can't join any units that have another mark. You can join units with no mark though, but for close combat you will likely want to be in a marked unit.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Are you sure there aren't certain Lords or HQ units that have a 2+ invuln?

Cause if not.. then my opponent cheated. And he is not really known for that. He's very by the book... like I said though it was his first game with Chaos.

[Nehekhare]

also that berzerkers have the exact same amount of attacks as grey hunters (charged) or blood claws (charging) and that rerolls on saves of 1 only happen to tzeentch daemon princes. May that friend of yours have used an old dex (or  - unintentionally - cheated)?

[*Furyou Miko]

Yeah, absolutely nothing in the Chaos book has a 2+ invulnerable save, and the only models with a 3+ are Tzeentch Sorcerers or Lords with Sigil of Corruption or Tzeentch Dark Apostles.

[Brother Ambroz]

We have the capability to use terminator armor so that's a 2+ and warpsmiths, mutilators and oblits have fleshmetal which is also 2+. Other than that the Daemon princes have 3+ and daemon princes of Tzeentch can reroll failed saves of 1. He could've gotten the boon to give him +1 armor save but that's the only way he would've been rerolling 1s with a 2+ save.

[Ammonius]

We have the capability to use terminator armor so that's a 2+ and warpsmiths, mutilators and oblits have fleshmetal which is also 2+. Other than that the Daemon princes have 3+ and daemon princes of Tzeentch can reroll failed saves of 1. He could've gotten the boon to give him +1 armor save but that's the only way he would've been rerolling 1s with a 2+ save.

We're talking about Invulnerable saves.

 

 

Are you sure there aren't certain Lords or HQ units that have a 2+ invuln?

 

Cause if not.. then my opponent cheated. And he is not really known for that. He's very by the book... like I said though it was his first game with Chaos.

 

I think the best we can do is Sigil of Corruption and Mark of Tzeentch for a 3++

Maybe he got the "Mechanoid" Result on the Chaos Boon table and accidentally applied it to his invulnerable save?

[Nehekhare]

invulnerable saves =/= armor saves, Tanith.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

It's possible he did it on the boon table or maybe that I just remembered it wrong on the saves. It seemed like for the extra attacks he was using something that I would compare to the MoTW. For his assault marine style units (don't know if they war berzerkers or warp talons) It seemed like they had quite a few attacks. The rest of the guys who were not sergeants, just the regular marines 3 attacks seems about right.

Anyway.. subject change. I'm a new play but I have found that I am fond of all units. I really like bad ass infantry but I also really like tanks. Are Chaos Space marines an Army in which all of the units are pretty effective?

[Deadman Wade]

Anyway.. subject change. I'm a new play but I have found that I am fond of all units. I really like bad ass infantry but I also really like tanks. Are Chaos Space marines an Army in which all of the units are pretty effective?

Not really. Though it's a matter of taste, I think that almost half of aviable units are quite bad: Lucius, Bile, Dark Apostle, Mutilators, Possessed, Warp talons e.t.c. Tanks are pretty standard, and I like them all. =)

[Nehekhare]

II really like bad ass infantry but I also really like tanks. Are Chaos Space marines an Army in which all of the units are pretty effective?

no :(