Chaos at close combat

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I guess I'm leaning towards Chaos Space marines. I read the fluff on Huron and how he took over a Space Wolves strike cruiser and there were space wolves who bowed the knee to chaos.. I guess they became corsairs? Anyway until I got more chaos models I was planning on doing the fluffy thing and using some of my Space Wolves units as Chaos units (counts as sorts of deals)

[derpasaurus]

Chosen are our veterans. They start off as marginally better CMS (better basic Ld, 1 more attack, bolt pistol). The benefit of chosen is they can take lots of weapons upgrades. 4 of them can take either a special weapon (gun) or special CC weapon, and a fifth can take either a heavy weapon or special weapon (gun). And that's in addition to the Sgt. Keep in mind, those special CC weapons aren't on characters, so they are the same sort of "hidden" power weapons that you can get in SW squads.

I hadn't considered CC chosen as part of an aggressive Abaddon build. It's worth trying out. A couple small nurgle chosen gun squads for objectives, a couple big Khorne chosen squads for moving forward, supported by Abby and maybe a vehicle or three... I'm thinking heldrake(s), vindicator, and/or maulerfiend(s). Definitely sounds like fun, and it's worth trying out.

If one were to try a CC unit of chosen lead by Abby, would you suggest Khorne + Icon or Wrath or Slaanesh + Icon of Excess. Khorne is slightly cheaper, is more reliable on the charge, gives more attacks, and works better with hidden power axes. Slaanesh lets you strike before more marines and gives FNP, which helps a lot with resilience. Keep in mind that Abby, having every mark, benefits from either icon.

Now back to this:

If I'm not running my generic raptor lord, I run Huron, and usually deliver at least my chosen, if not them and my raptors, with either infiltrate or outflank. I love when i land on divination and can give my chosen a 4+ invuln. I personally run my chosen with MoS a lot more often because 40 rerollable attacks against loyalists is pretty awesome at I5, but it's also super fun to throw 50 dice at somebody. MoK is also nice if you're going against an army/unit where you're already going first, like say orks. Sometimes MoS may just feel like a waste, because i5 will go before i2 or 3 just as well as i4 will. lol

[AekoldHelbrass]

DC is better overall, but for the same cost berzerkers and even warp talons or possessed still would beat them on charge.

Berzerkers on charge: 40 attacks - 20 hits - 13.2 wounds - 4.4 unsaved - 2.9 felt.

DC being charged: 30 attacks - 15 hits - 7.5 wounds - 2.5 felt

Difference: almost none.

 

Round 2:

Berzerkers (assuming 8 survived): 20 attacks - 10 hits - 5 wounds - 1.66 unsaved - 1.1 felt.

DC (assuming 7 survived): 21 attacks - 10.5 hits - 5.25 wounsd - 1.75 unsaved.

Difference: 1.5 times.

 

DC on charge: 50 attacks - 25 hits - 16.5 wounds - 5.5 unsaved

Berzerkers being charged: 30 attacks - 15 hits - 7.5 wounds - 2.5 unsaved - 1.65 felt.

 

DC is marginally worse being charged, and 3 times better on charge. AND DC can hide PW, unlike Berzerkers. Where is your Khorne now? I really loved Berzerkers previous edition, when we had true 3 attacks intead of that mockery we have now. But sold them all to our local World Eater recently.

 

Now, I agree that Warp Talons with MoS are probably the best bet against DC, being charged that is, because a small piece of difficult terrain will put you back into the dust. But Possessed? Are you joking? They can do any damage with chance of 1/3, and still cost 25% more than DC.

On charge ASM would have 27 attacks and 4 with a PW (with either sarge or priest in a challenge), inflict ~9 wounds and 1 or 2 with a PW, which means 3-4 kills at best, even less against Slaanesh raptors. With a champion easily killing characters in challenges, raptors would eventually come out on top even when charged.

He will not give you priest into challenge, obviously. How is that your champion easily beast other characters in challenge? Their sergeant can take a storm shield, making him way more survivable, and he has FNP unlike you. And the chance of getting something really useful from Boons is too small to use as an argument.

 

You know, I played my raptors 1000 times against BA assault squad of exactly that configuration. And I can tell you this: previous edition MoK Raptors could beat them, if you will take double LC champion (5 attacks on charge). In this codex, when you're good only round 1, you have no other chance than luck with dices. Even with MoS on charge you'll make 27 attacks - 13.5 hits - 6.75 wounds - 2.25 unsaved - 1.4 felt, and that's on charge! They will just laugh in your face, while their additional PW will win the battle at least by 1. You could do better with bikers though, the only strong CC unit, but limited to first floor only (which is critical on some tables).

[*Furyou Miko]

 

 

how . you have a huge tax model in the list in the form of abadon . you have dudes with csm resiliance[but higher cost . so same deaths ,but you have fewer units , so they die faster] . tell me how you do it .you cant be wining by shoting because other armies do gunlines cheaper and more effective , no way your doing melee chosen lists , because melee is A bad to begin with in 6th and B chosen arent good at melee. So how do you do it ? get carried by 3 drakes , that can be done with any chaos army and does little to prove the "power" of a chosen build.

 

dont forget to tell them that this unit costs more then a unit of terminators.

• Abby isn't required, dude, it was an idea I had. They're brutal even without him. Oh, and, do Chaos terminators ever score? Yeah, they don't.
• HOW IS 50 ATTACKS FROM 10 MEN FOR 200 POINTS BAD?
• Yes they get expensive when you give them toys, but what doesn't? Let's not forget your favorite thing, Terminators, START at 31 points each and sorta suck compared to any loyalist ones, especially your pet wolves. If you were to do a comparable squad of 10 you'd have to spend over 300 points for naked terminators.
• Yes, I do melee chosen, see the 50 attacks.
• No i don't always win. and no, I don't care, Mr. "It is not sufficient that I succeed – all others must fail."

> 

A Chosen with a power weapon is 2 points more expensive than a Terminator that comes with Terminator armor, a combi-bolter and a power weapon.

 

No point in paying more for less.

And it has an extra attack and grenades, plus the other models in the squad all cost considerably less, and the marks and icons and VotLW all cost less. Granted, the 2+/5++ save is huge, and it's nice that termies can deep-strike as a cheap (i.e. free) delivery system. Then again, Chosen can be made Scoring with Abaddon, which is incredibly useful. I'm not suggesting there's a clear winner, just that both units have their advantages and drawbacks.

Exactly. 

Thank you.

 

 

50 attacks charging for less than 200 points?

 

I'll take Scarabs for 150, thanks.

[Deadman Wade]

 

Berzerkers on charge: 40 attacks - 20 hits - 13.2 wounds - 4.4 unsaved - 2.9 felt.

DC being charged: 30 attacks - 15 hits - 7.5 wounds - 2.5 felt

Difference: almost none.

 

Now, I agree that Warp Talons with MoS are probably the best bet against DC, being charged that is, because a small piece of difficult terrain will put you back into the dust. But Possessed? Are you joking? They can do any damage with chance of 1/3, and still cost 25% more than DC.

On charge ASM would have 27 attacks and 4 with a PW (with either sarge or priest in a challenge), inflict ~9 wounds and 1 or 2 with a PW, which means 3-4 kills at best, even less against Slaanesh raptors. With a champion easily killing characters in challenges, raptors would eventually come out on top even when charged.

He will not give you priest into challenge, obviously. How is that your champion easily beast other characters in challenge? Their sergeant can take a storm shield, making him way more survivable, and he has FNP unlike you. And the chance of getting something really useful from Boons is too small to use as an argument.

 

You know, I played my raptors 1000 times against BA assault squad of exactly that configuration. And I can tell you this: previous edition MoK Raptors could beat them, if you will take double LC champion (5 attacks on charge). In this codex, when you're good only round 1, you have no other chance than luck with dices. Even with MoS on charge you'll make 27 attacks - 13.5 hits - 6.75 wounds - 2.25 unsaved - 1.4 felt, and that's on charge! They will just laugh in your face, while their additional PW will win the battle at least by 1. You could do better with bikers though, the only strong CC unit, but limited to first floor only (which is critical on some tables).

You forget VotLW re-rolls for your math examples. 36 attacks for 9 'zerkers, 18 hits, 9 re-rolls, that's 27 hits, 18 wounds, 6 unsaved, 2 FNP, 4 dead plus 5 attacks for skull champion. DC - 30 attacks, 15 hit, 8 wounds, 2 unsaved. After a first round though, it's a draw, and there's no such thing as 1,75 or 1.1 dead marines, it's either 1 or 2.

Charging possessed with a mark (slaanesh or khorne) would beat DC with any result for their table. Still would'nt use them though, they are too expensive for what they do.

And slaanesh raptor champion would beat sarge due to higher initiative, re-roll to hit (and to wound with claws), and FNP. After that sarge is dead and first combat round is at least a draw, priest either stands still to give FNP, or dies in a second challenge. And slaanesh raptors with IoE, VotLW and TLC would still be chreaper than ASM with JP+PW priest.

I have played against BA only 6-7 times, and maybe those list weren't that powerful, but my CSM and raptors were able to out-melee ASM.

[AekoldHelbrass]

You forget VotLW re-rolls for your math examples.

True. But as long as DC are better while charging - my point stands. Now consider this: for the same price you can take Chosen with MoK, and they will basically deal as much damage as DC, plus they have hidden PW, and the possibility to take IoE. Hm, something to think about...

And slaanesh raptor champion would beat sarge due to higher initiative, re-roll to hit (and to wound with claws), and FNP. After that sarge is dead and first combat round is at least a draw, priest either stands still to give FNP, or dies in a second challenge. And slaanesh raptors with IoE, VotLW and TLC would still be chreaper than ASM with JP+PW priest.

Sergeant with shield has a good chance to survive your attacks. And the problem is that its close to draw when you charge and huge win for him when he charges. And when MoK was just +1A Raptors had some real advantage over BA.

I have played against BA only 6-7 times, and maybe those list weren't that powerful, but my CSM and raptors were able to out-melee ASM.

Well, my naked 10-man squad was able to hold his ASM with priest for 4 turns, but that's because we are just throwing dices and making scary noises while doing so. Mathhammer is not on our side, and their units are almost guaranteed to make their points back, while ours are very situational. Well, at least while you're not taking zombies and dragons.

[Deadman Wade]

 

You forget VotLW re-rolls for your math examples.

True. But as long as DC are better while charging - my point stands. Now consider this: for the same price you can take Chosen with MoK, and they will basically deal as much damage as DC, plus they have hidden PW, and the possibility to take IoE. Hm, something to think about...

>>And slaanesh raptor champion would beat sarge due to higher initiative, re-roll to hit (and to wound with claws), and FNP. After that sarge is dead and first combat round is at least a draw, priest either stands still to give FNP, or dies in a second challenge. And slaanesh raptors with IoE, VotLW and TLC would still be chreaper than ASM with JP+PW priest.

Sergeant with shield has a good chance to survive your attacks. And the problem is that its close to draw when you charge and huge win for him when he charges. And when MoK was just +1A Raptors had some real advantage over BA.

I have played against BA only 6-7 times, and maybe those list weren't that powerful, but my CSM and raptors were able to out-melee ASM.

Well, my naked 10-man squad was able to hold his ASM with priest for 4 turns, but that's because we are just throwing dices and making scary noises while doing so. Mathhammer is not on our side, and their units are almost guaranteed to make their points back, while ours are very situational. Well, at least while you're not taking zombies and dragons.

 

Yeah, i thought about 10 MoK chosen with 2 power weapons, a little too expensive for my taste, but I'll definetaly will try them. But WS4 and no FC is a big deal, I think chosen would be better than zerkers against WS3 models. And i don't see melee deathstar units that much now, maybe it's just my local gaming group.

When ASM and priest charge, IoE raptors fight to a draw - it's 2 unsaved wounds from ASM, 1-2 from PW priest and ~2 from raptors, that's before FNP rolls, if no ASM died before hitting. Charging raptors win for 1-2 I think, in both scenarios raptor champion should win though, otherwise it wouldn't be that good. Slaanesh raptor champion with LC has 4 attacks, rerolls both to-hit and to-wound, strikes first, sure, sagre has a chance of surviving, but raptor has nice advantage.

[AekoldHelbrass]

Deadman Wade, on 07 Mar 2013 - 13:50, said:

When ASM and priest charge, IoE raptors fight to a draw - it's 2 unsaved wounds from ASM, 1-2 from PW priest and ~2 from raptors, that's before FNP rolls, if no ASM died before hitting. Charging raptors win for 1-2 I think, in both scenarios raptor champion should win though, otherwise it wouldn't be that good. Slaanesh raptor champion with LC has 4 attacks, rerolls both to-hit and to-wound, strikes first, sure, sagre has a chance of surviving, but raptor has nice advantage.

Priest effectively doubles the amount of wounds you'll get. You'll do 1.4 being charged, and they will do about 1.5 from ASM and a bit more than 1 from priest. Only in case Champion wins (which is not guaranteed since they have access to better wargear and FC, and your only advantage is I) you'll have a draw.

 

But yes, VotLW changes the situation, depending on dice you really have a chance against them now.

[Deadman Wade]

When you switch raptors for CSM, you get a squad of 13+champ for the same point cost as ASM+priest, and it would be a clean victory for CSM. Not that I would want to use slaanesh footslogging CSM, but anyway

The only thing for BA that massacres my CSMin melee is Mephiston. Without Abbadon or plasma chosen he pretty much runs around wiping my squads.

[Nehekhare]

Plague Marines bring (scoring) plasma, poison, def grenades, T5 and FnP into the equasion at -1I for +6/model. Did anyone do the math for those over 2-3 turns (can't be bothered)?

[Deadman Wade]

I think PM would fight to a draw when charged , win by 1-2 when charging, win in second round in both scenarios, and cost 50 points more. I'm not counting overwatch, pistol shots and power weapons. And I don't like using fractional numerals,

DC charge:

DC: 30A, 20 hit, 10W, 3 unsaved wounds before FNP. Let's say 2 PM died.

PM: 17 A, 13 hits, 6W, 2 unsaved before FNP.

PM charge:

DC: 30 A, 20 hit, 6 wound, 2 unsaved before FNP. Again, we count this as 1 died.

PM: 28A, 21 hits, 10 wounds, 3 unsaved before FNP.

If you add more members to DC or give them a couple of power weapons to equal point cost, PM would lose.

Funny enough, PM would beat berzerkers

[AekoldHelbrass]

But PM have the best possible protection against DC: blight grenades. Cutting DC from 50 to 30 attacks is huge!

[Gman]

jeske, really you think combat is bad in this Ed? Boy I thought that too, my first couple of passes of the rules. I thought to myself, wow this game really all about shooting armies, that's too bad. Then I delved deep into the assault section carefully reaing every word.

 

Wow was I wrong. It favors shooting sure, but combat is naaaasty now. Why? Three big factors make combat really nasty in 6th.

1) 2D 6 charge range

2) 6 inch consolidate at EACH initiative step (3" per side)

3) any and all models can be wounded, not just those engaged.

 

With just number 2 and 3 there, combat is far more nastier than 4th or 5th ed rules ever were.

[Brother Ambroz]

Are you guys including priests in each of these? If you are you're giving a sort of unfair advantage to the DC without giving the zerks or raptors something similar.

[Deadman Wade]

I was counting raptors with marks and icon vs ASM with a LC+SS sarge and a priest with JP and PW, so that point cost would be equal. As for zerkers and DC - both naked without characters (DC already has FNP and FC).

[derpasaurus]

50 attacks charging for less than 200 points?

 

I'll take Scarabs for 150, thanks.

Now you're just being Jeske. :p

Go play Necrons, then. lol

/tease

[*Furyou Miko]

Gman, it's only a 3" consolidate at each initiative step.

 

Edit: And derp... I do. :D

 

My Necron + Thousand Son list does very well for itself.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

This has turned into quite the interesting close combat read. Appreciate the information!

[Trevak Dal]

Chosen are an elite choice, Abbadon being an HQ that moves them to Troops, and therefore scoring. They're pretty much just like basic CSM but with 2 attacks base and 2nd close combat weapon already included. gives em 4 attacks on a charge. put mark of khorne on them and they get 2 extra on a charge instead of 1, and counter attack, giving them 5 per model on a charge, and if you pass leadership, 4 (2 base, +1 for 2nd ccw, +1 for counter attack) if they're charged. Also, they can have up to 6 special weapons. Mine have 2 flamers, 2 meltas, 2 power swords. Pretty effective. I even kill terminators just due to the sheer numbers of saves you can force on a squad with 40+ attacks rerolling misses on turn 1. 

 

Edit: fixed maths.

 

I'll add that Chosen are most like Power-armored Wolfguard, or in a Vanilla Space Marine's Command Squad (or is it Honor Guards?) minus any guys like apothecaries and champions.

 

As others have said, they are pretty much Better Khorne Beserkers.  Pity you can't make them WS5 (I'd trade a point of BS for a buff to WS) :(

[Gman]

Gman, it's only a 3" consolidate at each initiative step.

Edit: And derp... I do.

My Necron + Thousand Son list does very well for itself.

IIRC it's 3" for each opponent of the combat, so that is 6" total. That is nearly gaurenteed to get models back into base to base, even if you had to peel a fair number of them. It used to be if base to base to broken, at any initiative, combat ended. Also, it used to be that only engaged models could be wounded so eseentiall b2b models and two ranks behind them.

Now imagine a 30 strong Ork unit, assaults the 10 strong tactical unit. Even if the tactical unit kills 5 Orks at I4, breaking b2b, at the next initiative both sides move in 3". Dont' remember if Orks are I3 or I2. So if I2 both sides have moved in 6"(3" at I3 and then another 3" at I2) but either way, now those two units are back into b2b. Combat continues.

Now the Orks get to make all their swings back onto the tactical squad, with every engaged Ork. For sake of keeping it simple, let's say that is 20 Orks. They get all their attacks back on you, and at this point, the wounds can bleed back into the entire 10 man tactical unit. That's a lot of attacks, that can potentialy kill every single marine.

Imagine this scenario with some Howling Banshees attacking in. With the affect of wounds able to kill every model in the unit, that is one dead marine unit, probably before they even get to swing back.

[Dam13n]

Deadman Wade - I think you missed the fact that the PMs are S4 with poisoned 4+ meaning they'll get re-rolls to wound against the DC.

 

This translates to a 'mean wounds per hit' of 0.75, not 0.5.

 

VotLW as well means you're looking at 0.5625 'mean wounds per attack'

 

Against DC with their 3+ and FNP that's 0.15625 'mean kills per attack'

 

Applying that to your example means:

DC charging - 2.65625 DC dead, rounded to 3

PMs charging - 4.375 DC dead, rounded to 4

 

Gman - models only pile in at their initiative step so the marines wouldn't pile in after I4 (unless the sergeant has an axe/fist at which case he'll pile in only at I1, not at I4)

[Gman]

Gotchya, reread that part just now, and you're right, only models who attack at the initiative you're on, Pile In 3". So not a combined 6" at each initiative. However, only the nastiest, most deadly combat unit is going to make the opponent peel more than 3" worth of models, and end combat there. So what I'm saying about how nasty combat is in this Ed still stands. They have made it carry on to it's conclusion at initiative 1, for 99% of combats.

[the jeske]

 

Abby isn't required, dude, it was an idea I had. They're brutal even without him. Oh, and, do Chaos terminators ever score? Yeah, they don't.

aha , so you take chosen as melee unit in a csm army and not take abadon , but just run them as elites. high cost meq stat dudes in an army , that doesnt have good assault transports . how do they reach melee untouched to those 20000 attacks ?

ah and terminators have 3 things chosen dont have , better surviability , being shoty and chopy at the same time and being point for point better in melee[which by the way doesnt make them good, but with the combi plasma along side a huron they arent bad].

•  

  HOW IS 50 ATTACKS FROM 10 MEN FOR 200 POINTS BAD?

  if you can get an untouched melee unit in most of your games , without your opponent trying to counter and him being always i3 or lower , I salut your skill.

 

Yes

they get expensive when you give them toys, but what doesn't? Let's not

forget your favorite thing, Terminators, START at 31 points each and

sorta suck compared to any loyalist ones, especially your pet wolves. If

you were to do a comparable squad of 10 you'd have to spend over 300

points for naked terminators.

your realy want to do this ? ok 8-10 chosen 2 meltas 1 power weapon 1 fist , khorn mark . am keeping them cheap and not giving them an icon. ~240 points that is without a transport which they cant realy work without . now on the other hand terminators 6 of them all with combi plasmas and 2 fists cost me ~230pts. and they dont need a transport . If I add the cheapest rhino to the termis I can either make them 7 man strong or give them all mot icon which greatly increases their effectivness .

•  

  No i don't always win. and no, I don't care, Mr. "It is not sufficient that I succeed – all others must fail."

  Oh I know you dont always win , you dont have to tell me that.

 

 

 

 

jeske, really you think combat is bad in this Ed? Boy I thought that too, my first couple of passes of the rules.

 

it is not a question if melee is bad or good. but if melee based armies [and that is more or less what the main question of this topic was] are viable . they are not . armies which can do shoting do better . of course armies that can do shoting and do melee at the same time[sW , IG runing SW ally . IG alone , because there is nothing worse for a csm player then a blob with 3-4 ax sgts being hit by your lord].

 

 

 

 

'll add that Chosen are most like Power-armored Wolfguard, or in a

Vanilla Space Marine's Command Squad (or is it Honor Guards?) minus any

guys like apothecaries and champions.

command squad. honor guard is loaded with power weapons and +2sv.

[Fibonacci]

It's not so much that close comabt changed all that much.  It's getting inot close combat that changed the most.

 

Once you do, your assault troops are just as effective as ever.  That is assuming they survived intact after being shot twice, taking overwatch and still made their assault distance roll.

 

It's not impossible.  It's harder to pull off, though.  Bikes, beasts and FMC have some options that help with this while 10 bezerkers in a rhino are basically hosed.

[chillin]

Plague Marines bring (scoring) plasma, poison, def grenades, T5 and FnP into the equasion at -1I for +6/model. Did anyone do the math for those over 2-3 turns (can't be bothered)?

I certainly cant be , or any other kind of mathhammer .

If it looks interesting, I try it, it either wks well or it doesnt. (but I have been playing since the very 1st days of 3rd ed., so I can get a pretty good idea of what will and wont by reading the stats, ablities, etc)