Chaos at close combat

[AekoldHelbrass]

Fibonacci, on 07 Mar 2013 - 23:36, said:

Once you do, your assault troops are just as effective as ever.

Not really. Previously my Raptor Champion with MoK and twin claws almost guaranteed me 3-4 dead marines. And now thanx to challenges I'm getting only 1. So any unit that can hide PW AND has grenades has advantage in CC, in our case only Chosen can do that and we've already discussed that they are extremely hard to deliver.

[*Furyou Miko]

*shrugs* Something I've not mentioned before is that my Thousand Sons are pretty good in melee now.

 

In that they march up slowly, whittling down the enemy with their bolters, then rapid fire and assault the last 3 guys to wipe them out.

[AekoldHelbrass]

In that they march up slowly, whittling down the enemy with their bolters, then rapid fire and assault the last 3 guys to wipe them out.

Yes, my Rhinos are pretty good at melee now too, in that they are getting assaulted, blown up, but CC squad inside is not touched.

 

Maybe it's my constant confrontation against CC BA speaking, but I have no idea how 1000Sons can survive more than 2 turns against CC army. Assault squad is cheaper than 1000Sons so BA will have 4 squads against your 3, separating into combat squads and you will not wipe out more than 5 models at once, their assault threat range is at least 14" so with proper tactics and precise measuring it will require genious tactical skills for you to get into rapid fire range, and even combat squad charging can hurt you badly in CC.

 

Our best bet in CC is Zombies and even more Zombies. It takes 3 full turns for BA Combat squad to wipe out 10 man zombie squad, it gives you enough time to do whatever you want on the table.

[Deadman Wade]

To take zombies you need Typhus, and he's way overpriced and generally is good only for boosting survivability of a  PM squad even more. My main CC unit is the one that has CL with them. AoBF Lord with terminator/raptors/berzerkers/bikers is good enough to wipe non-dedicated melee units in one turn.

[*Furyou Miko]

Doombolt and AP3 bolters mostly. That and force weapons and not really caring if you lose a couple of Rubrics.

 

Plus, combat-squadding against Thousand Sons just means you lose whole units instead of suffering horrendous casualties.

 

As far as combat goes, denying those blood angels the charge really helps. Then you get the challenge which usually results in the BA champion getting force sworded while his power weapon bounces off the Sorcerer's invulnerable save while the TS and Assault Marines are about even (S4 AP- vs S4 AP- generally results in about one kill per five models, against T4 3+ so...), then the sorcerer just cuts the rest of the assault marines apart since you can't pick him out.

[AekoldHelbrass]

To take zombies you need Typhus, and he's way overpriced and generally is good only for boosting survivability of a  PM squad even more.

Typhus almost guarantees that your opponent will not get Slay the Warlord, unless he will use half of his army to hunt you.

[*Furyou Miko]

lol, or just managed to spend a turn focus-firing him down. I had a game against Nurgle chaos when I'd forgotten my vehicle box and I just ended up boltering him to death.

[Deadman Wade]

 

To take zombies you need Typhus, and he's way overpriced and generally is good only for boosting survivability of a  PM squad even more.

Typhus almost guarantees that your opponent will not get Slay the Warlord, unless he will use half of his army to hunt you.

Yeah, maybe, unless you face something like a thunderwolf lord, Lysander, Vindicators or anything else with instant death. If TYphus would be an eternal warrior, then he would be awesome, but now he doesn't loook like he's worth 230 pts.

[Sception]

Between his princely combat output, his own instant death via force weapon, his toughness, his psychic powers, and the zombies and plague marines he brings with him to the table, Typhus looks worth his price to me, so long as the games you're playing him in are at least in the 1750 to 1850 point range.

[Hellios]

 

In that they march up slowly, whittling down the enemy with their bolters, then rapid fire and assault the last 3 guys to wipe them out.

Yes, my Rhinos are pretty good at melee now too, in that they are getting assaulted, blown up, but CC squad inside is not touched.

 

Maybe it's my constant confrontation against CC BA speaking, but I have no idea how 1000Sons can survive more than 2 turns against CC army. Assault squad is cheaper than 1000Sons so BA will have 4 squads against your 3, separating into combat squads and you will not wipe out more than 5 models at once, their assault threat range is at least 14" so with proper tactics and precise measuring it will require genious tactical skills for you to get into rapid fire range, and even combat squad charging can hurt you badly in CC.

 

Our best bet in CC is Zombies and even more Zombies. It takes 3 full turns for BA Combat squad to wipe out 10 man zombie squad, it gives you enough time to do whatever you want on the table.

 

It depends what is attacking the 1ksons. They will die to buckets of dice like any marine will. They are much better at surviving against power weapons when compared to most other marines. The sorcerer can kill a few guys and is actually one of the best challenge champions that chaos has (although he is horrifically expensive, so you don't want him to lose or win and be turned into a spawn) so it isn't all bad on that front. However it looks like Furyou was mainly referring to finishing off already crippled units; AP3 has its uses now and again.

[Iron Sage]

Between his princely combat output, his own instant death via force weapon, his toughness, his psychic powers, and the zombies and plague marines he brings with him to the table, Typhus looks worth his price to me, so long as the games you're playing him in are at least in the 1750 to 1850 point range.

Agred, although you can field a surprising ammount of the walking dead in 1k which some opponents will have problems dealing with in such low point games.

[Brother Ambroz]

TS still die to FC and weight of attacks like any other marines. My 3 man zerker unit killed off a 7-8 man TS squad over a few turns. My champ even killed the sorceror with his LC while the sorceror fumbled his saves against WS 5.

[derpasaurus]

 

 

Abby isn't required, dude, it was an idea I had. They're brutal even without him. Oh, and, do Chaos terminators ever score? Yeah, they don't.

aha , so you take chosen as melee unit in a csm army and not take abadon , but just run them as elites. high cost meq stat dudes in an army , that doesnt have good assault transports . how do they reach melee untouched to those 20000 attacks ?

ah and terminators have 3 things chosen dont have , better surviability , being shoty and chopy at the same time and being point for point better in melee[which by the way doesnt make them good, but with the combi plasma along side a huron they arent bad].

 

See, you're assuming again. We argue about this crap all the time, man. You should know by now that I run Huron. I get outflank/infiltrate. I push them up the board behind something, bottom 1 or top 2 i assault. how are 2 power weapons, 2 flamers, and 2 melta guns not both shooty and choppy?

 

your realy want to do this ? ok 8-10 chosen 2 meltas 1 power weapon 1 fist , khorn mark . am keeping them cheap and not giving them an icon. ~240 points that is without a transport which they cant realy work without . now on the other hand terminators 6 of them all with combi plasmas and 2 fists cost me ~230pts. and they dont need a transport . If I add the cheapest rhino to the termis I can either make them 7 man strong or give them all mot icon which greatly increases their effectivness .

You really want to compare 10 things with permanent special weapons to 6 with one shots? 50 i4 attacks to 18 i1? oh wait, I can take axes and go simo @ ap2. So that's 50 attacks, 46 before you and 4 ap2 simo at the same time as your 18. Terminators won't make all those saves. Meq and below will make even less. I think out punching your unit nearly 2:1 is worth 10 more points. Besides, if you give "ubergrit" a chosen is a whopping 1 point more than a regular marine and has the aforementioned extra attack. And grenades.

 

Clearly neither of us can convince the other that they're wrong. So how about I just say "if you want to pay 31+ points for a model that I can kill from a foot away with 23 points, (marine w/melta) that's fine. and if I want to to pay 33 points for something that your 31 will kill with a fist that's fine, too." It's a freakin game. 

[Hellios]

TS still die to FC and weight of attacks like any other marines. My 3 man zerker unit killed off a 7-8 man TS squad over a few turns. My champ even killed the sorceror with his LC while the sorceror fumbled his saves against WS 5.

 

Indeed they do. However I've had one rubric kill Gazghull Thraka in combat, so swings and roundabouts.

[derpasaurus]

Yeah the big problem I have with Rubrics is the 4++. They don't kill many of my guys at all, typically... but I sure have a hard time going thru them, lol. They're meq murderers at range and a big angry tarpit in combat.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

So Berzerkers and a world eater list are good.. or are bad? Who are Chosen? What kind of unit is that?

[*Furyou Miko]

Go acquire yourself a codex.

 

Chosen are Elites-slot veteran infantry with a proportionately large number of special weapons.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

When I can spend 50 bucks I will.. for now I have to get my questions answered here 

[*Furyou Miko]

If you buy it later, you can legally keep a digital copy for 24 hours.

[totgeboren]

If you buy it later, you can legally keep a digital copy for 24 hours.

 

Tbh, I would never buy a car without driving it first, though I would not drive a car around over a long period of time without buying it first for obvious reasons. Checking out what you are considering buying is not illegal, but keeping it without paying definitely is. This thread might not be the right place for this though, and I am sort of drunk...

[chillin]

If you would not buy a car w/ out driving it 1st, and you would not drive a car w out buying it 1st, how do you get a car ??

Could have been worse, you could have e-mailed or texted an x girlfriend while drunk

[minigun762]

When I can spend 50 bucks I will.. for now I have to get my questions answered here 

Asking for opinions on units is ok.

Asking for tactics or techniques to building a specific list is ok.

Asking for detailed information available in the codex such as point cost or rules is not ok.

 

I'm making this clear for your own good, don't want you to get into trouble by accidently crossing a line you shouldn't.

[totgeboren]

If you would not buy a car w/ out driving it 1st, and you would not drive a car w out buying it 1st, how do you get a car ??

Could have been worse, you could have e-mailed or texted an x girlfriend while drunk

Well, I failed at formulating my opinion, that's for sure! I should have said, "Making informed decisions before purchase is not the same thing as stealing." Considering most could buy the book, read through it, play a game or two, and if they don't like it, they are fully entitled to return the product, meaning no money goes to the seller, and the would-be buyer has still used the product.

I dunno, people need to realise that electronic copies are ok as long as you also pay for the product (eventually, a week here or there does not make much difference in the grand scheme if things).

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

 

When I can spend 50 bucks I will.. for now I have to get my questions answered here

Asking for opinions on units is ok.

Asking for tactics or techniques to building a specific list is ok.

Asking for detailed information available in the codex such as point cost or rules is not ok.

 

I'm making this clear for your own good, don't want you to get into trouble by accidently crossing a line you shouldn't.

 

 

Thanks for trying to clarify.. but did you even attempt to read what I asked? I only asked What the 'Chosen' were because I could not find that model on GW's site. I don't know what you classify as 'detailed' information... What did you do when you first started playing? Did you buy a codex just to find out what a Land Raider was? [REDACTED]

[Spacefrisian]

 

To take zombies you need Typhus, and he's way overpriced and generally is good only for boosting survivability of a  PM squad even more.

Typhus almost guarantees that your opponent will not get Slay the Warlord, unless he will use half of his army to hunt you.

 

This and the thought that Typhus can think a Baal Predator to death, gotta love that many shots that make the Pred getting overheated. (yes that happened with my opponent once, 3x a 1 blew the tank up in 1 round of own shooting.)