Chaos at close combat

[*Furyou Miko]

Wait, Typhus has the Warpsmith's powers?

[Nehekhare]

propably the other way around

the curse version of master of mechanisms is pretty much the same as the nurgle discipline weapon virus psi power, but it targets only vehicles =/

[happybounce]

I think the real advantage of the Chaos codex is the ability to customize the hell out of everything, but it comes at the expense of "power"--that is, obvious units that are points efficient and do well in the current meta.  Yet even for a codex as customizable (on both a design and story perspective) as this one, there has to be an underlying design theme--and for Chaos, I think it's synergy.  I really feel like the most efficient way to play the codex is to build a combined force that has a number of specialist units, sort of like a less specialized, more durable Eldar army.

 

That being said, the codex gives us lots of tools to do what we want.  It's totally possible to build a fun and effective close combat Chaos army, just like you can build a fun and effective shooty Chaos army.  And yeah there are some stinkers--but every codex has their Vespids or Kazarkin squads.  But this is easiest I think if you have a particular army in mind, or a specific Chaos God or Legion you like.  It's definitely an army where loving the fluff is an important part of the game, and if you don't care about that, playing with a mid-range, synergistic list might be best.

 

As for Chaos and close combat: Aidoneus had good advice.  Our fast attack options are pretty killer--cheap and hard-hitting bikes and jump infantry, as well as the crazy undercosted Chaos Spawn, and a Chaos Lord of Khorne on a Juggernaught with the Axe of Blind Fury has become a Chaos staple.  The Maulerfiend is also awesome, and doesn't get nearly enough street cred.  Yes, he kind of sucks at fighting squads and killing them all--but for 10 points, he can reduce the number of attacks by anything in base contact by TWO.  That's enough to take a smashing Monsterous Creature down to 1-3 attacks, which is totally survivable, and to render most other units down to one relevant attack.  Their big advantage is as a tarpit unit, when they aren't just crushing vehicles and buildings (or drawing fire away and getting shot to hell).

 

As for Bezerkers sucking: yeah not being able to assault out of Rhinos is a hassle now, but if you are charging in with a lot of your army on turn two, getting them out means they aren't as vulnerable.  But for my money I like two squads of Chaos marines with Vets of the Long War, the Mark of Khorne, and some bolters for fire support.

[Nehekhare]

first off, it is funny how the word "synergy" is used since 3 editions to apologize for non-competitive rules. I have literally NEVER seen it used to describe a powerful army, nor heard of anyone complaining that he got crushed by overpowered synergy.

 

second, it is bad game design when customization come at the expense of effectivity. There are always some more and some less good options. but to pay in advance just to be able to choose between them is punishing the army from the start - you pay for nothing. Just compare Chaos Marines to Grey Hunters or Cultists to Guardsmen - you always pay more and get less in the end. In addition, the options are never costed right, because some abilities just aren't worth a whole point (votlw), while others make the whole unit not even worthwile anymore when lost (ATSKNF).

 

when done like this, customization is not an advantage, but a penalty. You can build anything, but everything sucks.

 

Whichever route you choose, the good units are either Fast attack (heldrakesheldrakeheldrakes) or Heavy Support (less so in this ed.) choices, while our troops suffer from either underperformance or being overpriced, elites seems to be just a placeholder for troop unlocks and leftover crap units and HQ is either a mandatory unlock tax or the missed potential of an uncompetitive, gimmicky fluff choice (apostle, warpsmith), all of which suffer from a severe weakness to challenges.

 

The maulerfiend is not awesome, it is the failed attempt to make a CC dread that doesn't suck, failed because that starts with AV13. Not even one attack from a monstrous creature is survivable for this thing, not to mention that the tendrils do nothing against grenades. It just gets shot down like any light tank, because there simply is nothing else with armor in your CC chaos army to shoot your AT weapons at. And if by chance it reaches the enemy lines, it barely kills a tank (which any infantry could do), then gets eaten in CC or eats melta. Not enough killyness to be a thread, not enough survivability to be a tarpit, too many points for a CC unit in a shooting game - it gets just the creds it deserves.

 

fauxzerkers cost too much for something that dies like a marine and fights like a marine (slightly better in the first turn), yet runs like a guardsman.

 

for all it's precious "options" (traps), it boils down to a monolist codex in the end.

[Sception]

While I agree that happy is being rather willfully blind in their optimism, it's not quite as bad as you make out nehek. We've seen multiple successful builds using pieces of this book, and they're not always heldrakes. Princes, spawn, bikes, and predators have all also seen a lot of play, sorcerers, cultists, and some of the SCs (typhus, Huron mostly) do alright, as do predators and dakkafiends depending on ally choice.

 

I'm not saying it's good. I'm not saying that at all. And way too much of our variety does come from ally choice, and with our troops and cult units ranging from lackluster to awful and our fluffiest ally choice being one of the least beneficial its very hard to make a list that is both successful and feels fluffy and 'chaos mariney'. But on the first page of the forum we have a thread about two completely different builds both running CSMs as their primary detatchment doing quite well in a serious tournament environment, and notably neither matching the default build accusations thrown at the book (one has no baledrakes, the other uses two princes), and at that point I think 'monobuild' is no longer a valid criticism.

 

Poor internal balance? Sure. Poorly thought out? Sure. A paoinful lack of synergy that makes happy's statement notably odd? Certainly. Specifically difficult to make lists that look and feel like you're playing "chaos marines" while also being effective on the table? Most certainly. But when there are multiple successful builds, I don't think 'monobuild' or 'everything sucks' are valid complaints. Maybe they will become valid as the edition progresses, but at the moment, not really.

[derpasaurus]

I really wish all the people that were going to all over the codex would just go play another army or something so we don't have to hear about how crappy our chosen force is all the time.
If you don't like it there's something like 14 other armies out there. Let the people who want to know what is best out of what we have learn about that, go poopoo somewhere else.
Every time I talk about how my forces did well in a game I get told about how I'm paying too much for grey hunters or death company or how much dreadnoughts suck or how forgefiends are overpriced dreads or how my chosen couldn't possibly do as well as they do and I'm tired of it.

I came here for a community that can offer advice and swap stories/ideas on the CHAOS SPACE MARINES CODEX. Not Space Wolves.

Sorry, had to get that out.

[Trevak Dal]

My frustration with it is how lacking it feels in comparison to Phil's other works. I got guys who tell me I'd be better off running my Chaos as Space Wolves for how I was playing them.

 

I understand you're frustration with everyone coming in and just hating on it, but we got punked pretty badly, and now we got to try and make the best of a crappy situation

 

Regarding the Chosen? Chosen are awesome, and if I didn't have to give up taking one of my own characters (and paying a Landraider's price for their unlock...and then the requisite unit to support Abaddon...etc) I'd take them. I think they (along with a few other things) need an adjustment.

 

I think it's criminal we're the only Space Marines without drop pods. Drop pods would open up builds for us.

[Nehekhare]

Derpasaurus...am I to understand you correctly saying that anybody (mostly those veteran guys that play chaos for decades now) who writes something bad/you don't like to hear about C:CSM is to leave of these forums by the will of "we" the people of chaos, as represented by you, someone registered here merely 4 months ago?

[Trevak Dal]

Derpasaurus...am I to understand you correctly saying that anybody who writes something bad/you don't like to hear about C:CSM is to leave of these forums by the will of "we" the people of chaos, as represented by you, someone registered here 4 months ago?

 

I don't think me means it like that, but the majority of those of us who are...dissatisfied, just keep complaining about the same stuff instead of trying to come up with work arounds and new ideas.  It kind of kills the new players' joy when we come off tired and bitter.

 

I mean, guys like Nihm who have been playing WAY longer than I have, have even dropped flags and just gone to painting if associating with the hobby at all in disgust from how we were done, and maybe that's what we should do.

 

Yeah, we got a sub-Wolves codex.  Yeah we're probably stuck with it, so we can either accept that and see what we can come up with, or maybe it would be better than making ourselves feel bad, and downing the enthusiatic fresh faced guys to just do what Nihm and other people have done and just drop flags, or use Count-As/Legions stuff.

[derpasaurus]

Derpasaurus...am I to understand you correctly saying that anybody (mostly those veteran guys that play chaos for decades now) who writes something bad/you don't like to hear about C:CSM is to leave of these forums by the will of "we" the people of chaos, as represented by you, someone registered here merely 4 months ago?

 

No you absolutely are not understanding me even remotely. I'm not saying you have to say things that I think are right, that the older players opinions are completely invalid. Where did you even get that idea? I said you need to stop dumping on our codex. Quit bitching about how things suck and get on with making the best of what we have.

 

Instead of "maybe this would work?" or "What about this idea?" or "how have you guys made x or y unit work?" all I hear are "YOU ARE RETARDED IF YOU LIKE CHOSEN" or "IF YOU USE TERIMINATORS THIS WAY YOU ARE STUPID" or "UNLESS YOU DO x OR y YOU SUCK AND WILL NEVER WIN" and "AV 12 WALKERS ARE FOR MORONS AND COMPLETELY WORTHLESS." Even in threads whose sole purpose was to find out how to make the best of a certain unit I hear about how Space Wolves have it better and PotMS is so badass and we suck because we don't' have it and on and on and on.

 

Am I understanding you correctly that because I only signed up to a board full of strangers on the internet 4 months ago that I don't have some valid input? Seems the kind of leap you took for my post, so I can only assume.

 

edit: upon further reflection, to an extent, yes, that is what I am saying. 

IF YOU DON'T LIKE OUR BOOK THERE ARE OTHER CHOICES. If you do like it, quit :cussting on it and help people make it work.

[Excessus]

@Trevak Dal: Some people are just natural whiners though. Even though they have the knowledge and experience to make the best of a bad situation they still love to repeat their almost religious message of how horrible our codex is. Some of us cope with the situation, others would be better off playing Necrons...

[derpasaurus]

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as belligerent. I'm feeling uncharacteristically confrontational today for some reason.

I'm glad there are at least some people here who see what I mean. I didn't come to the Chaos forum to discuss how much better Space Wolves are. I came here to talk about my and other's lists, see how they're doing, and talk CSM fluff and CSM strategy. I see it mentioned regularly, here and on the internet at large, 3.5 blah blah blah. That's not now. Living in the past won't help our book get any better. Talking about grey hunters won't make our 10x marines with 2 plas get any better, either. Just get over it and get down to helping people who might not want to roll face every day. They might just want to know how to make a Dreadnought work, or how best to arm/deliver chosen. They might think that moving 18" in one turn is worth 35 points and one vp because everything now seems to be on foot, so getting to a midfield 3 point objective and buttoning it down on turn 1 is a huge advantage. Maybe we just want to discuss ways to use units we have, instead of pooping on everything because it's not "competitive" or because it's not Space Wolves.

Sure, I don't understand why we have to trade in our drop pods, teleport homers, venerable dreadnoghts and storm shields to the dark mechanicum when we turn our backs on The Emprah, but we do, so make the best of it. If you want that stuff so bad, go cleanse yourself in a penitent crusade and crawl back to The Corpse God's "light."

[Azekai]

Excessus

 

Some people are just natural whiners though. Even though they have the knowledge and experience to make the best of a bad

situation they still love to repeat their almost religious message of how horrible our codex is. Some of us cope with the situation, others

would be better off playing Necrons...

Please. 'Coping' is what I do in real life. In my pretend hobby-land where I shell out lots of money for my plastic soldiers, I expect GW to do a passing job in rules-writing, what with the codex being 50 quid and all. Instead we get badly-balanced garbage; I long passed the chaos fanboy stage. As a pissed off consumer of GW, I want a game (and a faction!) that is not a haphazard mishmash of incoherency compounded by irrational FAQs. 

[Excessus]

 

Excessus

 

Some people are just natural whiners though. Even though they have the knowledge and experience to make the best of a bad

situation they still love to repeat their almost religious message of how horrible our codex is. Some of us cope with the situation, others

would be better off playing Necrons...

Please. 'Coping' is what I do in real life. In my pretend hobby-land where I shell out lots of money for my plastic soldiers, I expect GW to do a passing job in rules-writing, what with the codex being 50 quid and all. Instead we get badly-balanced garbage; I long passed the chaos fanboy stage. As a pissed off consumer of GW, I want a game (and a faction!) that is not a haphazard mishmash of incoherency compounded by irrational FAQs. 

Nobody is forcing you to play chaos though. We have our codex, nothing is going to change that. In the end it is just a hobby, and it shouldn't impose on your "real life". If it does, you might want to re-prioritize a bit. What are you hoping to achieve by coming here and complaining, what is the goal of your complaints? Games workshop sure as heck isn't going to change the codex for you, and there must be some more efficient way of reaching your regular opponents and local players than B&C...

 

GWs rules-writing skills(or lack thereof) isn't a surprise to you, me or most other peoples...at least it shouldn't be. But the last few months the posts on B&C and other forums have had the theme of "surprise". Surprise at GWs lack of rule-writing skill, despite the fact that they have churned out completely imbalanced codexes and units time and time again for years and years. Has the game ever been balanced?

 

Yes we would love to have GW make good and balanced rules, with scheduled "patches" and re-balancing, good beta-testing and a consistency in their codexes. Will you get that by complaining in a sub-forum on B&C? I don't think so. The one thing that it will do though, is to make the visit to B&C almost unbearable to a lot of us that nowadays shy away from the chaos parts of this forum because of it...

[Nehekhare]

edit: upon further reflection, to an extent, yes, that is what I am saying.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE OUR BOOK THERE ARE OTHER CHOICES. If you do like it, quit :cussting on it and help people make it work.

what if I don't like the codex, but do not feel like helping people that tell me to :cuss off or call me a "natural whiner" (excessus)?

I tell you what I think: quit whining about people expressing their negative opinions. quit trying to make an argument out of dismissing negative opinions out of hand. quit selling off valid comparisons as "living in the past".

Because at the moment, you're not coming off as belligerent, but as an inconsiderate and unthankful [whatever you hid behind ].

This board is for everyone to express their opinions. If you want my help without my opinion, then pay me.

[Excessus]

...and I'm free to express my opinions as well Nehekhare, and just as well as you don't want to be dismissed as a whiner I do not want to be dismissed as a people-hater.

 

I have nothing personal against you, or jeske or whythre or anyone else...it's just that the message you repeat, and repeat, and repeat and repeat, is getting pretty dull after a while. I don't think there is anyone that thinks our codex is not a lackluster, or that it could have been done better. But seriously, what is the point in repeating it as much as you and the others have done? Do somethign constructive and write a tactics-topic or something else, so that the newer ones doesn't have to ask wheather their MoK obliterators or MoT marines are the optimal choice and can read about it there...

 

You are free to whine as much as you like, but it gets boring after a while since we have all heard it before...quite a few times...

 

 

 

...just my opinions...

[Nehekhare]

point is: I don't whine or hate on other's opinions - you do.

[Excessus]

point is: I don't whine or hate on other's opinions - you do.

Not really, I respect your opinions and your right to express them, but in this case I just find them boring and doesn't want to be bombarded with them every time I visit the board...

 

Though since you have no intention of stopping, I just have to take a pause from B&C...again...

[Azekai]

Not really, I respect your opinions and your right to express them, but in this case I just find them boring and doesn't want to be bombarded with them every time I visit the board...

See, that works both ways, though. By the same token, I find your positivity irrational and a bit unnerving (anyone who thinks chaos or the game in general is in a healthy state right now is mistaken); nonetheless, I would not ask that you or derpasaurus or anyone silence themselves in favor of my opinion standing unopposed.

[happybounce]

point is: I don't whine or hate on other's opinions - you do.

 

Ha!  Do you read your posts before they go up?  I mean we ALL do this, man.  Taking the high road while fighting about 40k on the internet is practically admitting you are wrong.  And for the record, I would literally pay money not to have people like you and jeske impart your "helpful opinions" when I'm trying to talk about new builds, strategy, or interesting Chaos/40k stuff.

 

Anyways, your "analysis" of the codex was limited to the same old talking points that have been circling for months, and your dismissal of the Maulerfiend reeks of internet theoryhammer.  How thoroughly did you test the Maulerfiend?  Against what kind of armies?  What list were you running, and what's your strategy?  Nothing is set, and everything is conditional.  Oh, and the last codex--which I LOVED--had "too few" options, and everyone jumped ship.  This one has a ton of options, but less obvious choices.  

 

And you do hear people bitching about "synergy" and being outplayed by an "inferior" army all the time.  It sounds like this: "It's total crap man, my dice had it out for me, can you BELIEVE he studded those roles, I could have won if the game went 7 turns, statistically speaking I SHOULD have blah blah blah".  It's the companion complaint to "SUCKS man stupid HELLDRAKES/LONG FANGS/PSYBOLTS, that army is broken and too poweful."

 

Derpasauras, I agree almost wholeheartedly.  I do think there is a place for venting frustration, but good god I am sick of hearing the constant whining.  Also I love your username.  Also also I would much rather fight on the internet than grade papers, so I'm glad that I am so obviously right in the face of so much incredible wrongness ;)

[Hellios]

Hey guys keep it civil or I will be forced yo use the report button (The power, THE POWER!)...

 

I understand that some people don't like the negative vibe of others. Have you ever considered that your being positive could be annoying to others? Certainly comments like deal with it or go away don't help. The people who 'whine' have often be dealing with it for years. Tolerance isn't the same as acceptance. I suggest we move away from this kind of topic as it does not answer the OP's queries.

 

Maybe descriptions rather than judgments of effectiveness is what the day calls for.

 

I Hellios the voice of Tzeentch have spoken!

[derpasaurus]

I'm sure if I caused threads to veer like this on a regular basis, some of you would be in my exact shoes and saying similar things. "If you don't like it here, just go to any of the other hundreds upon thousands of internets boards about 40k." and I would have no argument, because yeah, there are buttloads of them.

I'm not dismissing or hating on opinions. As was stated above, GW isn't going to rewrite a codex just because we think it sucks. My point, which I thought I had made several times already, is, I didn't come here to hear about how crappy our book is compared to others, I came here to find out how to make a book that yes, could have been much better than it is, work. If I hated the book as much as some people here seem to, I would abandon Chaos altogether. I'm building a Sisters of Battle army that is half the size and already has a much better win/loss record with a 2 magazine "codex," but I keep my chaos army because ... *gasp* I THINK IT'S FUN. Some people must think complaining is super fun. (I think I've seen a sig like that around here somewhere...)

Also, for the record, I just clicked the corresponding smiley button a lot. I didn't hide any words.
So, pip pip, death to the false emperor, and all that.

[happybounce]

To be totally fair, Derpasaurus lost it like once and then defended himself.  I don't really think that's the same as months of being told you're wrong with no explanation, or constantly complaining about how our army is "bad" and then passive-aggressively going after people who disagree.  He wasn't pointing out that being unhappy about parts of the codex is unacceptable, I think he's just tired of people saying it sucks and comparing it unfavorably to other armies.  And it does suck!  

 

It's part of a wider issue on how a lot of people talk abut 40k online, and I totally agree with you--descriptions rather than judgements IS helpful.  Discussing how a list works, or what the goals of it are, is helpful--and asking questions about that stuff is helpful.  Telling someone "LOL THAT SUX run x2 oblits" is the opposite of that.  There is no inherent good or bad when it comes to 40k (or anything else for that matter), so descriptions are really necessary. 

 

As for descriptions about close combat: I think Maulerfiends rock, provided they are given the right job, and you know their limitations.  For 125 points they are a bargain, and a big scary threat.  As I hate the model I made my own, out of a defiler torso, with a converted predator head--the lascannons are replaced with a searchlight, and a small "plasma cutter".  I put them on a base (had to use a CD because the oval ones aren't big enough), and I deploy them out of cover for starters.  Their job early on is to draw a ton of fire, which they do really well!  Much more than a dred would in their place.  My Rhinos, bikes, raptors, Juggerlord w/ Spawn, and Daemon Prince are all more dangerous--but the Maulerfiend is big, scary and placed out of cover, due to it's 5+ invun.  I rarely lose them both turn one.

 

Also, I enjoy shouting "IT . . . WILL . . . NOT . . . DIE!" at the end of every turn, but I'm not sure if that's a good enough reason to take one.

Long story short, they work for me extremely well, but I don't think they are for everyone.  If there's a moderately fast mid-range army they might have a place, providing someone is looking to sink 100-150 points into something--but if that's the case I suggest Chaos Spawn, which are clearly the superior Fast Attack option.

[Brother Ambroz]

You know if either of you positive and negative groups don't want to read the other's posts, there is the option to ignore certain posts. Either literally (there is an option to ignore members in your profile) or figuratively.

 

I am really starting to warm up to the daemonic horde introduced in the new Codex:daemons and I think it adds some decent options with Slanneshi heralds/fiends/daemonettes or BTs/fleshhounds. Still pissed about crushers but oh well. Add these to a fast moving CSM list and you'll have a decent, at least fun list.

[derpasaurus]

If being positive is annoying, I'm in some serious trouble. :D

I like to run mid/close range shooties. I usually give "ubergrit" because, hey, why not? If points are a premium I drop it. My troops are primarily shooty, but they do so well at either range I usually equip them for both. Most of my guys are MoS so they tend to go first. That in and of itself is awesome. I like the idea behind the maulerfiend, but my army benefits more from the range and high strength the forgefiend provides, and as much as I tend to disagree with typical internets wisdom, even I can tell that a single av12 walker in combat against a wad of troops with grenades is going to be in a bad spot.

My close combat exclusive choices are MoS Chosen (~40 i5 attacks) and MoK Raptors (~40 i4 attacks), and I tend to run Huron quite often which gives me a couple of solid transport-free delivery options. I like to attach him to my chosen and challenge with the champ, which lets him butcher things with s6 fleshbane. I personally have terrible luck with Deepstrike and therefore hate it.