Seahawk Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 So, I had a sad when the WD update seemingly nerfed Flamers. Now I have a real sad because they have taken it in the nuts! Compare the two editions (forget that stupid update!) and see if I'm right this time: 4th Flamer -> 6th Flamer The Good: * +1W * +1 I * Addition of Reroll 1's for saves The Bad: * -3 Ld * -1 Sv * Instability * Warp Storm * Loss of Eternal Warrior * Loss of Bolt of Tzeentch option * Loss of Breath of Chaos * Loss of Warpfire The weapons and upgrades of the unit are turdtacular too. I mean, it's great that GW sold models, but I feel kicked in the nuts because of these sweeping changes. I've been playing Daemons since C:CSM 3.5, so blarg. On the plus side, Fiends and Beasts of Nurgle got so much better. What are your thoughts on the changes? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Time to pawn the flamers and pick up some beasts? After all, Tzeentch is a fickle weakling, and Nurgle's might is eternal. Edit: Now is as good a time as any to gripe and whine about what a big problem instability is. It reminds me of the old Necron 'Phase Out' rules, and those sucked; having inherent weaknesses in your army choice is dumb. Space Marines get army-wide advantages, but daemons on the other hand get a giant glass jaw that doesn't even have to be tactically exploited- just kill some in CC and a bunch more will die. Terrible rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3321966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 6, 2013 Author Share Posted March 6, 2013 Na, I'll keep my flamers and continue to use Fiends...I just lament the loss of a tank-killer in an army with so few to begin with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3321970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 GW has pulled the old 'bait and switch' with flamers and screamers. Buff the units to ridiculous heights, sell a shedload of models then nerf them back into oblivion/reality* to get people to go out and buy whatever the new FotM is. So cynical! *delete as appropriate Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3321975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Just remember. As agents of the changer, surgem identidam! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3321983 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 6, 2013 Author Share Posted March 6, 2013 I've just discovered Plaguebearers have magically become a halfway vehicle killer though. Plagueswords, essentially, gained the Gauss tech, though it's the other way around, being Rust tech, haha Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3321994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenfeld Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 I think that "rushing out to buy" any unit because it is labelled as really good is a bad idea in the first place. Because the further they rise the harder they fall. I know that no one not playing daemons hated flamers for being (and these aren't necessarily my opinions, just those of my storemates) and I quote "the most broken infantry unit in the game." Now they have been brought down to more manageable levels. I also think Instability reminds me of the VC's rules in fantasy when losing combat, it makes sense as you have plenty of cheap and plentiful options, but I am far from a daemon player myself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3322065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 6, 2013 Author Share Posted March 6, 2013 When they were 1 wound and 4+ save it was manageable. Mine died all the time despite my best intentions, and they'd get one or two units. For their hefty price tag, nobody I played thought them OP. Once they went to two wounds for a short time, hell broke loose for some reason. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3322067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenfeld Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Well all I know is in our campaign we were playing a sort of Zone Mortalis scenario and a chaos player took a unit of flamers that single handedly destroyed four seperate players forces (Not completely, but enough to neuter them) over 6 turns, suffering only one casualty before the game ended. Were his dice on fire? Probably, but that sort of thing makes alarms go off for me. A unit single handedly making almost 10 times its points back in 6 turns, crisping HQ choices and troops alike. Lets just say a great many people were unimpressed. There also could have been some cheating for all I know, sometimes these campaigns bring out the worst in people. I was (am) wayyyy too unfamiliar with the Daemons to make any claims, just my observations. I got destroyed by a treacherous eldar player early on.. so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3322071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBasser Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 On the plus side, against anything with toughness 3 or less, Flamers got better. Ap 4 still cuts most xenos armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3322127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 6, 2013 Author Share Posted March 6, 2013 How many people even play xenos anymore? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3322132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBasser Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 . . . 2? In my area there are Tau, Orks, Eldars, and IG. Against Marines, all it will do is force saves. Then give FnP. Not the best, but still have their uses. Take 27 in a list? Probably not. I can still see taking 6-8 of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3322140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 How many people even play xenos anymore? Looks lovingly at his Dark Eldar army Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3322241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Our Deldar player was heart broken when WWP and Assault Deldar were nerfed in 6th. He shelved them rather than running 52 Dark light weapons. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3322258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Ours too. He ran a haemonculus list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3322334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 I'm still running mine with Eldar allies. Last 2 games I played I tabled Grey Knights in Turn 4 (would have been turn 2 if his Stormraven failed a jink save) and Chaos Space Marines in Turn 3. Dark Eldar can still compete but it's a hard army to play snd I tend to either win big or lose big. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3322346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 7, 2013 Author Share Posted March 7, 2013 None of which has anything to do with daemons, so back on track. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3322487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 my thoughts are that flamers, and basically anything tzeentch in general, are a great way to take on bigger handicap than would otherwise be allowed. I mean, sure, with any army you can just bring fewer points to the table, but tzeentch lets you go that extra mile, paying points to actually make your opponents' units stronger. We may be looking at the very first 40k unit that is actually worse than useless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3322512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 None of which has anything to do with daemons, so back on track. To be honest mate, I don't think anything more needs to be said other than; HA HA Uber nerf. Bait and switch extreme! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3322546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Well, we all know I love playing with handicaps! (yes, that was a disabled girlfriend joke). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3322571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 surgem identidam! I think you meant to say surgam identidem ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3322684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 my thoughts are that flamers, and basically anything tzeentch in general, are a great way to take on bigger handicap than would otherwise be allowed. I mean, sure, with any army you can just bring fewer points to the table, but tzeentch lets you go that extra mile, paying points to actually make your opponents' units stronger. We may be looking at the very first 40k unit that is actually worse than useless. In the even you flame units with existing FNP, maybe so. In other cases though, you have jumppack infantry with flamers, meaning that 5-6 of them will cause untold damage on hordes, and good damage on MEQ... Doesnt mean I dont hate the Warpflame rule, but calling 23 point flamers worse than useless in the way you do is just very silly. For :cusss sake, its flying flamer attacks costing 23 points while being decently durable. You can project templates pretty much anywhere on the board with that unit, and as such it still obviously has its uses. Just not against plaguemarines and etc.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3322720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Ehe, yes, but Sergem makes a better pun. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3322723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romulas Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 the only thing i got out of the new book is now i have to go and get a couple $90 grinders Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3322782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 7, 2013 Author Share Posted March 7, 2013 GML, the problem is that it's only bait and switch for those that were actually baited (ie, new players). The veterans simply get nut-hammered for no good reason, other than giving a different god the time to shine (Nurgle). The only way I'll take Tzeentch anything now is via Portalglyph or rolling a 12. If I know I'm playing something horde, then Flamers, but sadly no more. Same goes for the Changeling. My friend that has had an all Tzeentch army since early 5th nearly refuses to play with Warpflame... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272382-mmm-super-epic-flamer-nerf/#findComment-3322786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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