Mmm, super epic flamer nerf

[Iron Sage]

GML, the problem is that it's only bait and switch for those that were actually baited (ie, new players). The veterans simply get nut-hammered for no good reason, other than giving a different god the time to shine (Nurgle). 

 

The only way I'll take Tzeentch anything now is via Portalglyph or rolling a 12. If I know I'm playing something horde, then Flamers, but sadly no more. Same goes for the Changeling. My friend that has had an all Tzeentch army since early 5th nearly refuses to play with Warpflame...

Yeah, warpflame is...unbelievably stupid unfortunatly.

[Morollan]

GML, the problem is that it's only bait and switch for those that were actually baited (ie, new players).

 

Do you mean new to 40K or new to Daemons? Recent tournament results suggest that a fair few experienced players were successfully baited by the OP WD updates.

[Seahawk]

New to both. Those new to 40k got chumped by temporarily trumped up rules, and those new to daemons (because who in their right mind would play them?? :D) because they suddenly saw an easy-button win pair of units. Sucks to be experienced WAAC players, but I mean that's how it goes for them. Buy a new army every month because it's the power play, then watch it get nerfed and move on to the next. No pity there. :P

[Sception]

I could deal with that if this were 'nerfing into line' and not 'nerfing into oblivion'; and between the loss of AP, loss of vehicle damaging ability (in a faction that suffers in that regard already), and warpflame, the flamer nerf really feels like the latter.  And, honestly, the screamer and horror nerfs don't feel much better.  And, while I could be wrong, the chariots seem as fragile as the rest, and not something to be honestly considered.  The flamer chariot can't even move and shoot, though that at least should see some errata sooner or later.

 

At least Tzeentch seems to have the best greater daemon of the bunch, so I wouldn't say tzeentch has nothing good.

[Gentlemanloser]

Before the WD uber buff, I listed Flamers in the top three, if not the top, of the most broken things in 40k list (this is before the Helldrake ofc! :P).

 

Too many times had I seen a unit of three DS off an icon and melt entires squads.  4+ to wound, ignoring both *all* armour saves and covers saves.  Far too good.  That they could also glance vehicles was bad enough.  The JI was just cake.

 

Then came 6th and buffed them some more.

 

Hammer of Wrath (lol, but worth mentioning).  Melting vehicles with Glances.  Overwatch.

 

Flamers were obnoxious to the extreme.

 

The WD just blew them sky high.

[Sception]

I don't deny the WD version was OTT.  But the current version just isn't worth fielding.  ditch warpflame (ditch it entirely from everything, it's super dumb and terrible even by daemon standards of lolrandumb) and give them the glances back and there'd be something to talk about.

[Gentlemanloser]

They've been uber nerfed to the point of uselessness.

 

Warpflame is also a very, tricksy (was gonna say stupid!) rule.  Just look at the thread in the OR.

 

What happens to a unit (i'll give the example of a Bangle squad in range of a S Priest) that gets hit?  +1 to thier FnP rolls, as they have FnP from the Preist.

 

What then happens if the unit moves out of range and no longer has FnP?

 

Can the +1 stack?

 

Do we really want units with 1+ FnP rolls?

 

It's a *bad* rule that yet again GW haven't playtested, and haven't thought about even simple interactions with the rest of the game.

[Romulas]

from being on both the giving and recieving side of them in the past .... if you manage to survive multiple template weapons from one unit in a game it would be kind of cool to get a little something for your troubles.....

 

problem is none of the uber net lists no longer work and kids get grouchy when their toys run out of batteries..... we got a new book time to figure it out would be good, give it a few months.

[*Furyou Miko]

Romulas, I resent the implication that everyone complaining about the flamer nerf is a childish netlister.

 

It's frankly insulting. The nerf, that is - you're just making sweeping over-generalisations, which everyone does.

 

I didn't realise we'd lost the ability to glance vehicles. That means that the Lord of Change is now my only daemonic anti-tank.

 

If Necrons can have AP1 flamers, why can't we? Because... we're Tzeentch daemons. That's the only reason.

 

edit: Oh, gods, the typos!

[Nehekhare]

units are only as good as the interest the designers had in them. it's the law.

[Seahawk]

Don't have to figure out the powerhouses of the current codex. It's Nurgle, hands down. 

 

And no, it's not just netlisters that are angry, though they are in the majority. All of us non-bandwagoners who used them before they were cool are super unhappy as well. Yea Miko, they lost the ability to cut through armor and to anything to vehicles, and lost the multi-shot version so they can't even touch flyers or FMC! It's about as hardcore of a nerf as they could possibly get.

 

The extremely reduced ability of all factions except Nurgle to take out vehicles basically forces all of them to take fortifications so they at least have SOMETHING to do at range. You're otherwise hoping for a 17% chance to get Warp Breath or Hellfire Gaze. The only other AT option is the Burning Chariot (go figure) or punching, and only the Lord of Change can do that with any amount of effectiveness.

[Romulas]

sorry Miko i'm just a grouchy old cuss jaded with years on boards with people complaining about one thing or another.... lol

 

but we really need some time to figure out the book. it's kinda like getting a complicated model with instructions mainly in a foren language.

 

we could use some sort of unbiased interview of Cruddice and Kelly to get in their heads on how they saw the unit used and how they play 'em.

 

Nurgle is strong, but i've never used 'em in the past and won't probably in the future....

 

looks like Slaanesh got a little leg up and Khorne and Tzneentch left to wander around in circles.... but like i said we need to figure it all out. just finished typing out everthing in an excel speadsheet and just to play them i'll have to install a fast access library in my skull for all the special rules and random tables.... should be fun though.. playing the army that is not the surjury.... (gonna be months before i get all the rules down)

[Seahawk]

Emperor help you if you get a Daemon vs Daemon game on. The pre-battle phase is almost as long as the actual battle!

 

Rolling for the mission/deployment.

Rolling for random terrain (if you do it that way; I strongly suggest narrative-ing it)

Deciding on fortifications.

Both rolling for psychic powers, various rewards, warlord traits, deciding to keep or swap what you got, and so on for half a dozen or more models.

Roll for who goes first.

And finally you deploy!

[Gentlemanloser]

LoL Daemon versus Daemon Apocalypse.

 

FUN!

[Romulas]

already writing up a cheat sheet to tape on to the back of the new codex for the special rules......

[EricBasser]

I'm planning on four Tzeentch Heralds , Mastery Level 3, 3 Lesser gifts, Blue Scribes, 6 squads of horrors, 3 Burning Chariots with 2 lesser rewards. If I did it right, this all in a 1850 list. Between rolling for randomness and movement my opponents are going to love me! . . .

[Captain Idaho]

LoL Daemon versus Daemon Apocalypse.

 

FUN!

I've never liked Apocalypse anyway, far too much book keeping. Daemons are just as much a nightmare as armies with Hull Points on vehicles if not worse. I just don't understand how people feel such hard work for leisure activities are fun!

[Gentlemanloser]

Hull points are no more difficult that tracking wounds.

 

Just stick a dice on top of the vehicle.  Did that same for damage chart results in 4/5th anyway. ;)

[*Furyou Miko]

So how do you differentiate hull point loss from structure point loss in apoc? :p Different coloured dice? Soundsd like a quick way to run out of dice...

[Gentlemanloser]

Structure Points?

 

Don't you Vortex Grenade the Super heavies off the board?

 

Going to be even easier now, with Belial.

 

DWA trn 1, no scatter, VG that Baneblade.  BOOM! ;)

[*Furyou Miko]

I only have one vortex grenade, and every apoc game I've been in so far has had at least four super heavies. :p

 

Normally, to be honest, I just inferno pistol them up the jacksie. ^^;

[Seahawk]

Just keep counting up. Each SP = 3 HP, so use a D10 on most superheavies. :P

[Romulas]

So how do you differentiate hull point loss from structure point loss in apoc? Different coloured dice? Soundsd like a quick way to run out of dice...

1 structure = 3 hull points.... or thats what i remember from a FW FAQ.... don't know if its changed

[*Furyou Miko]

Half right. If you have 3 structure points, you have 9 hull points. But you can lose a structure point and only lose 1 hull point at the same time, or you can lose 4 hull points and still have 3 structure points.

[Gentlemanloser]

That's not quite correct;

 

 

 

1 Structure Point being lost for every 3 full Hull Points of damage the vehicle suffers. Keep track of the number of

Hull Points the vehicle has lost, and reduce the number of Structure Points it has remaining every time a third Hull Point is lost.