CC Delivery System

[AekoldHelbrass]

Some discussions in neighbouring topics inspired me to start this thread.

 

Looks like the main problem with CSM CC is delivery, so, in your opinion, what is the best CC units delivery system available to us?

 

Deep strike is not a very good option because one turn in a field can hurt.

 

Land Raider is barely and option because of the price and melta-drop.

 

Jeske argued about Storm Eagle being worse than what 'they' have, but if it's still the best we can get - maybe it worth the points? At least in bigger games, like 2600-3000?

 

Dreadclaw... Haven't tried it yet, is it worth using? After all, it's the cheapest assault vehicle available to us, and as it arrives on the fist turn - it sits on the ground, so you will not be subjected to S10 hit if it will be destroyed...

 

Maybe we should just take Rhinos and either hope that we'll get the charge after disembarking, or just plan to be charged and hope to win while being charged, with some other tricks in the sleeve?

[totgeboren]

I'm thinking Flesh Hounds, lots of Flesh Hounds. Like a whole 20-dog squad of them.

That is, deploy as far forward as possible with marines in Rhinos, with the hounds behind them. Use the Hounds scout redeployment to place them as far forward as possible. Turn one go as far forward with the Hounds as possible (terrain doesn't do much as they have their 5++ anyway), maybe even assaulting, whilst the Marines in Rhinos drive+walk+run around 15"-16". If the hounds made it into assault they should be able to reduce the amount of firepower your marines get hit by, especially if you make a disordered assault and maybe tie up more than one enemy unit. Turn two should hopefully see your marines into close combat.

give your Rhinos Havocs as they will stay in the midfield back anyway, have some long-range anti-tank to deal with/supress enemy ordnance and your cc force might carry the day.

[AekoldHelbrass]

For almost the same price you could just take additional Rhino or full 10-man Raptors squad and infiltrate it, which will do basically the same trick: the loses you can afford before your main force arrives to CC.

[Nehekhare]

beast movement.

[*Furyou Miko]

Beast movement is only marginally better than Jump Pack movement (Beasts are always fleet, Jump Packs are only fleet if they don't move above 6").

[Warsmith Aznable]

Some discussions in neighbouring topics inspired me to start this thread.

 

Dreadclaw... Haven't tried it yet, is it worth using? After all, it's the cheapest assault vehicle available to us, and as it arrives on the fist turn - it sits on the ground, so you will not be subjected to S10 hit if it will be destroyed...

 

Where are you getting that it comes in on the first round?

[AekoldHelbrass]

Where are you getting that it comes in on the first round?

I meant "on the first turn it arrives".

[Nehekhare]

Beast movement is only marginally better than Jump Pack movement (Beasts are always fleet, Jump Packs are only fleet if they don't move above 6").

don't forget ignore terrain (beasts) vs. treat all terrain as dangerous (jump pack) ;)

 

but the main reason for my answer is that beast movement is, judging by those lists that do good at tourneys, the only cc delivery system that is used at all.

[himkano]

I'm thinking Flesh Hounds, lots of Flesh Hounds. Like a whole 20-dog squad of them.

That is, deploy as far forward as possible with marines in Rhinos, with the hounds behind them. Use the Hounds scout redeployment to place them as far forward as possible. Turn one go as far forward with the Hounds as possible (terrain doesn't do much as they have their 5++ anyway), maybe even assaulting, whilst the Marines in Rhinos drive+walk+run around 15"-16". If the hounds made it into assault they should be able to reduce the amount of firepower your marines get hit by, especially if you make a disordered assault and maybe tie up more than one enemy unit. Turn two should hopefully see your marines into close combat.

give your Rhinos Havocs as they will stay in the midfield back anyway, have some long-range anti-tank to deal with/supress enemy ordnance and your cc force might carry the day.

Not that I don't like this idea, but there is no way they can get into combat on turn 1, unless you choose to go second.  You can't assault the 1st turn after scouting. That means someone can mostly ignore your dogs the first turn, and try to slow down you vehicles, and then assault your dogs with a unit of their choosing, which will tie them up.  This still might be a good plan, in that it still forces the enemy to react, but I think a shooty army with a counter assault unit (or dread) would still be able to make you pay for crossing the board

[*Furyou Miko]

 

Where are you getting that it comes in on the first round?

I meant "on the first turn it arrives".

 

Except you still can't assault on the turn you arrive from reserve.

[totgeboren]

 

I'm thinking Flesh Hounds, lots of Flesh Hounds. Like a whole 20-dog squad of them.

That is, deploy as far forward as possible with marines in Rhinos, with the hounds behind them. Use the Hounds scout redeployment to place them as far forward as possible. Turn one go as far forward with the Hounds as possible (terrain doesn't do much as they have their 5++ anyway), maybe even assaulting, whilst the Marines in Rhinos drive+walk+run around 15"-16". If the hounds made it into assault they should be able to reduce the amount of firepower your marines get hit by, especially if you make a disordered assault and maybe tie up more than one enemy unit. Turn two should hopefully see your marines into close combat.

give your Rhinos Havocs as they will stay in the midfield back anyway, have some long-range anti-tank to deal with/supress enemy ordnance and your cc force might carry the day.

Not that I don't like this idea, but there is no way they can get into combat on turn 1, unless you choose to go second.  You can't assault the 1st turn after scouting. That means someone can mostly ignore your dogs the first turn, and try to slow down you vehicles, and then assault your dogs with a unit of their choosing, which will tie them up.  This still might be a good plan, in that it still forces the enemy to react, but I think a shooty army with a counter assault unit (or dread) would still be able to make you pay for crossing the board

True. But if you go second, you can assault, since it's not the first turn anymore. Though your opponent could just run away. :)

[the jeske]

no you dont understand . if you get out of reservs you cant charge . it doesnt matter if its the 6th and last turn , you still wont be able to charge.

beast is the , well I dont want to use good or optimal . let us say quickest way to do an assault .

[AekoldHelbrass]

Except you still can't assault on the turn you arrive from reserve.

Damn, is my english that bad? Ok, once again. Dreadclaw is Hover Flyer, assault vehicle and has to arrive from Deep Strike. We cannot assault on the turn we arrived from reserve. So Deep Strike rule takes precedence, Dreadclaw arrives as Deep Striking Transport, so it is standing on the ground like very expensive Rhino for 1 turn. But, unlike Drop Pod, you do not have to disembark, just stay inside. In this case if dreadclaw gets shot you will not get S10 hit, but only S4 AP- hit. Next turn you're free to assault from dreadclaw.

 

At least that is my understanding of rules, correct me if I'm wrong. And yes, it doesn't sound very effective. Maybe someone knows better way to use Dreadclaws?

 

no you dont understand . if you get out of reservs you cant charge . it doesnt matter if its the 6th and last turn , you still wont be able to charge.

beast is the , well I dont want to use good or optimal . let us say quickest way to do an assault .

I don't get it.

[henrywalker]

i'd vote storm eagle. 20 plage marines vomitted on to an objective makes the oponents cry

[chillin]

no you dont understand . if you get out of reservs you cant charge . it doesnt matter if its the 6th and last turn , you still wont be able to charge.

beast is the , well I dont want to use good or optimal . let us say quickest way to do an assault .

 he knows that, just the way the conversation was chopped up over a couple of different txt made it...well...choppy.

[chillin]

As for the best delivery system for CSM's , we've heard about allies (khorndogs etc), we've heard about FW models (may or may not b able to use them depending on who/where u play, how about something thats actually in the csm codex , anything other then beasts even viable ? I know bikes are pretty popular too. Has anyone tried running behind rino as shield ? Raptors w a character (flying not DS'ing, again using rino and/or terrain as cover) ? A sacrifical maulerfiend or 2 to take heat off ur other units ?

(plz no one say "use some heldrakes and burn everything)

[Nehekhare]

use some heldrakes and burn everything.

 

;)

[KingDeath]

use some heldrakes and burn everything.

Sadly that's true. Ah well, perhaps 7th edition will finaly bring a "good" chaos codex.

[Aidoneus]

Are Rhinos really unusable now? I haven't had many test games yet, but Rhinos seemed decent still. Not as good as in 5th, obviously, but still worth taking. Have people been taking rhinos and actually finding them to be useless in real games, and not just in theory?

 

The way I see it, first turn you either go forward 12" and pop smoke or 18" and hide behind terrain. Even if you get blown up right then, you're still at least a turn ahead of where you would have been. If you don't get blown up, turn 2 your dudes get out 6" and move another 6", and either shoot something or possibly even run. Meanwhile, the tank moves a full 12" forward and then turbo-boosts in front of your dudes (after they shoot, or before they run). You're now protected for another full turn. Turn 3 you should be close enough to move around your tank and threaten to charge something, especially with something to help charge distance, like the Icon of Wrath (which lets you bank on more like 7-8", rather than being cautious and aiming at 5-6"). A turn 3 charge is about all a rhino ever guaranteed you anyway.

Of course, the whole thing works a lot better if you can take some of the heat off your Rhinos and disembarked troops. That's where Maulerfiends, Bikers, and Spawn come in. They rush forward too, and the enemy has to choose whom to shoot. And big units of spawn and bikers are certainly tough enough to take a significant beating and still charge on turn 2 to tie up some enemy units, while your infantry make their final approach.

Again, I know this approach has been hurt by the 6th ed transport rules, but has it really been killed completely? It seems viable on paper, especially when you consider how deadly close combat itself has become.

[diabloelmo]

Bah, there is nothing wrong with our Storm Eagle. Sure, all the anti-vehicle options are far less usable due to our lack of PotMS, but that simply means we don't buy them in the first place - which makes it rather cheap for what you get. Sure, the loyalist's one is going to be more effective on the field, but it's also significantly more expensive. 205 points for an assault flyer, that doubles as a rather efficient infantry-killer? Yes please.

 

Other than that, well, we don't have much in the way of options. The chaos codex is odd that way, in that many of our units really want to be in melee, but lack reliable means of getting there.

[AekoldHelbrass]

chillin, on 08 Mar 2013 - 00:37, said:

Has anyone tried running behind rino as shield ? Raptors w a character (flying not DS'ing, again using rino and/or terrain as cover) ?

I'm doing that pretty much all the time. 4 Rhino + 3 Vindicators + Bikers rushing forward, 2 units of Raptors (one CC and 1 shooty with Skalathrax) are hiding behind. But it has following problems:

1. it is hard to play on Hammer and Anvil, because of limited attack front, and that unlike BA our Vindicators can shoot only on 6"

2. it sucks as delivery of CC units, because you're constantly getting your marines charged and then countercharging with raptors.

 

While what I had in mind is this: lets assume that I want to make Chosen into deathstar, similar to DC, with some hidden PW and spare bodies to take the wounds. Of course they cost 2-3 points more than I would like (I'd throw away bolters), but still. And lets assume that the main weakness of Chosen is the possibility to deliver them. Terminators are better because they can survive on the field or just deep striking. Marines are good because they are so cheap you can just ignore your loses. But Chosen are good on the paper but way too fragile on the table, so we need to deliver them.

Aidoneus, on 08 Mar 2013 - 04:42, said:

Of course, the whole thing works a lot better if you can take some of the heat off your Rhinos and disembarked troops. That's where Maulerfiends, Bikers, and Spawn come in. They rush forward too, and the enemy has to choose whom to shoot. And big units of spawn and bikers are certainly tough enough to take a significant beating and still charge on turn 2 to tie up some enemy units, while your infantry make their final approach.

Not really. Spawn are not scoring, will be ignored. Maulerfiend will not do enough damage to full squad, especially if Serg has a fist or meltabombs. And bikers have jink, which makes shooting them way less effective. So I'd say in this configuration your Rhinos are doomed.

What worked for me is 4 Rhinos + 3 Vindicators. Vindicators are scary, everyone wants to shoot them before they reach firing range. And 4 Rhinos allow you to lose 1 and still have full 3 squads deployed in your opponent's deployment zone. My main problem is that I do not have a single unit to hold home objectives, and even if I'll take cultists - they will be slaughtered by anyone who will deep strike or outflank there.

 

Still its not a really good delivery system for CC army. I get charged all the time, I'm in constant disadvantage, my only benefit is units as cheap as possible.

[derpasaurus]

Are Rhinos really unusable now? I haven't had many test games yet, but Rhinos seemed decent still. Not as good as in 5th, obviously, but still worth taking. Have people been taking rhinos and actually finding them to be useless in real games, and not just in theory?

 

The way I see it, first turn you either go forward 12" and pop smoke or 18" and hide behind terrain. Even if you get blown up right then, you're still at least a turn ahead of where you would have been. If you don't get blown up, turn 2 your dudes get out 6" and move another 6", and either shoot something or possibly even run. Meanwhile, the tank moves a full 12" forward and then turbo-boosts in front of your dudes (after they shoot, or before they run). You're now protected for another full turn. Turn 3 you should be close enough to move around your tank and threaten to charge something, especially with something to help charge distance, like the Icon of Wrath (which lets you bank on more like 7-8", rather than being cautious and aiming at 5-6"). A turn 3 charge is about all a rhino ever guaranteed you anyway.

 

Of course, the whole thing works a lot better if you can take some of the heat off your Rhinos and disembarked troops. That's where Maulerfiends, Bikers, and Spawn come in. They rush forward too, and the enemy has to choose whom to shoot. And big units of spawn and bikers are certainly tough enough to take a significant beating and still charge on turn 2 to tie up some enemy units, while your infantry make their final approach.

 

Again, I know this approach has been hurt by the 6th ed transport rules, but has it really been killed completely? It seems viable on paper, especially when you consider how deadly close combat itself has become.

I do this all the time, too.

18" flat out turn one, 6" move 6" disembark, bolter/plasma deathstorm on turn 2, pistols and assault on 3. I need to actually get some bikes, but they work great as a distraction, and relentless t5 plasma is sexy. I love my raptors, at the very least they take heat off scoring units, usually i'll infiltrate them and blast some tanks, then kill back line infantry. So while they're chasing highly mobile plasma/melta delivery, my troops get to move. or while they're chasing my troops, my elites and fast attacks get to butcher their backfield.

[AekoldHelbrass]

derpasaurus, on 08 Mar 2013 - 18:55, said:

I do this all the time, too.

18" flat out turn one, 6" move 6" disembark, bolter/plasma deathstorm on turn 2, pistols and assault on 3. I need to actually get some bikes, but they work great as a distraction, and relentless t5 plasma is sexy. I love my raptors, at the very least they take heat off scoring units, usually i'll infiltrate them and blast some tanks, then kill back line infantry. So while they're chasing highly mobile plasma/melta delivery, my troops get to move. or while they're chasing my troops, my elites and fast attacks get to butcher their backfield.

Yes, the only problem that doesn't sound like CC-oritented army, so Rhinos are not CC delivery. I would guess that real CC army would melta your Rhinos and charge you sooner than you'll say "Blood for the Blood God". Or you will get shot ant charged between your turns 2 and 3. That is of course if your opponent understands his strength over you and knows how to use it.

[chillin]

Not doubting at all that the way u use rino's works derp, I dont think they, if used propeerly, are not quite as useless as others seem to think either. But anytime I see someone use the word "distraction" , it makes me think they play mostly inexperenced players ( obviously I hav now way of knowing for sure if that applies to u) , bc experienced players dont get "distracted". They make threat assesments, based on several factors, then act accordingly.

[AekoldHelbrass]

Not doubting at all that the way u use rino's works derp, I dont think they, if used propeerly, are not quite as useless as others seem to think either. But anytime I see someone use the word "distraction" , it makes me think they play mostly inexperenced players ( obviously I hav now way of knowing for sure if that applies to u) , bc experienced players dont get "distracted". They make threat assesments, based on several factors, then act accordingly.

It depends what do you mean by word "distract". For example in my case "distraction" is 3 Vindicators. Ignoring them just to destroy 4 Rhinos is far from the best option. So my Rhinos are mostly delivered, but I still have a problem of being assaulted more often than I would like.