Daemon Questions

[Mutt-Man!]

Been a while B&C.

 

Curious about a few things.

Subject 1: Screamers.

--Any unit it turbo boosts over suffers hits according to the rules, vehicles on their side armor. That means they can hit fliers? Force winged monstrous creatures to take crash test? If so, this makes some flyers vulnerable.

 

--Final position is where casualties are determined from, I presume like a shooting attack. This means specialty assassinations where characters sit in the rear, and position all those wounds to remove that character? Pretty gnarly.

 

--Substituting all of its normal close combat attacks (normal as in, no change in attack type) for a lampreys bite. This still allows it to have a hammer of wrath attack, since it is not a normal attack. Right?

 

 

Subject 2: Horrors.

--They can be created midgame with the Portalglyph/Summoned from the Warp. Because psychic powers are rolled for at the start of the game, and they were not in the list... Does this mean that they have no psychic power?

 

--They have mastery level 1. They are not allowed to have the 2 warp charge psychic power, regardless of how many charge points they get with their rules? (Always rerolling that result of a 5-6)

 

--Flickering Fire. The chances of killing a space marine after all the rolling per D6 is below that of five guardsmen rapid firing 2 shots each. While barely equaling a guardsman for killing another guardsman. Is this power worth taking for any other reason besides replacing Firestorm?

(Deny the witch, D6 averages 3.5 shots, kill a model to get the other two psychic fires or none at all, redundant to further casualties dor the flames, relying on that statistic to try and finish the unit, etc)

 

 

Subject 3: Anti Aircraft.

--With the lack of ranged firepower, and range in that firepower... We're limited to flying monstrous creatures, standard str6 side armor hits. Soul Grinders. Psychic powers on FMC's(sorry khorne fluffers). Maybe the Screamers if the side armor is 10. The 50% chance to get a Bolt of Change on horrors(auto hit). What else am I missing?

 

 

Reply with any additional questions/concerns and answers.

[Seahawk]

1. 

- A ) Yes, it can hit any unit type.

- B ) Yes.

- C ) Yes.

 

2. 

- A ) Correct, no psychic powers. 

- B ) Read page 38. Units of 11-15 generate 2 warp charges, 16+ generates 3.

- C ) You can get up to 4D6 shots, which is a decent amount of S5. 12 S5 shots, on average, would get six hits, four wounds, and 1.3 kills. Or you can get lucky, and kill more. Either way, it also causes Soulblaze and potentially more wounds.

 

3.

FMC, certain psychic powers, Soulgrinders, various shooting attacks and such, fortifications.

[Mutt-Man!]

2. 

- A ) Correct, no psychic powers. 

What if I roll those powers for these units for the warp storm/Portalglyph units that may come?

[Seahawk]

What powers? They don't roll any because it's too late to do that.

[Mutt-Man!]

I guess taking a portalglyph is a bad idea until it's FAQ'd. I suppose I'll be content with the 6 units I can take to get the mastery level 1 powers. Warp charges and Mastery levels are separate, so I'll get a reroll on the mastery 2 power for a 50% chance to get that nice beam shot.

[Seahawk]

Mastery only tells you how many powers you can cast a turn, not what powers. If you have a special rule that gives you more warp charges than you have mastery levels (such as Horrors) you can use them all on a single power. No, you won't get any rerolls whatsoever. Psychic powers don't have a mastery level, they require an expenditure of warp charges, and if you generate enough to use whatever you want, then you're good to go.

tl;dr - Horrors can use any of the Change powers. Only units of 11+ can use Infernal Gateway, or boost Flickering Fire.

Also, the Portalglyph is awesome for spawning free, tough, scoring units in the form of plaguebearers.

[Mutt-Man!]

Mastery only tells you how many powers you can cast a turn,

Mastery level is how many powers that can be taken. Psychic Disciplines, right before the basic discipline powers in the rulebook says:

"If a psyker generates a power whose warp charge cost is higher than their Mastery level, roll again".

They cannot in any way shape or form have that 2 warp charge cost power. They are mastery level 1, with additional warp charges by a special rule meant only for flickering fire. Warp charges do not determine mastery level.

[Cheex]

Subject 1: Screamers.

--Any unit it turbo boosts over suffers hits according to the rules, vehicles on their side armor. That means they can hit fliers? Force winged monstrous creatures to take crash test? If so, this makes some flyers vulnerable.

No - only Snap Shots can hit Zooming flyers and FMCs. Attacks that don't roll to hit cannot affect them (RB FAQ p3).

 

Even if you could hit FMCs, it still wouldn't cause Grounding tests as they are not Shooting attacks (RB p49, 'Grounded Tests').

 

--Final position is where casualties are determined from, I presume like a shooting attack. This means specialty assassinations where characters sit in the rear, and position all those wounds to remove that character? Pretty gnarly.

Pretty much. Note that, as above, this attack is never defined as a shooting attack, but the wounds would still have to be allocated like that.

 

--Substituting all of its normal close combat attacks (normal as in, no change in attack type) for a lampreys bite. This still allows it to have a hammer of wrath attack, since it is not a normal attack. Right?

I'd be inclined to agree with you, but RAW is muddy.

 

Subject 2: Horrors.

--They can be created midgame with the Portalglyph/Summoned from the Warp. Because psychic powers are rolled for at the start of the game, and they were not in the list... Does this mean that they have no psychic power?

That's right. As a Khorne Daemon player, I'm not complaining :P

 

--They have mastery level 1. They are not allowed to have the 2 warp charge psychic power, regardless of how many charge points they get with their rules? (Always rerolling that result of a 5-6)

That's right, as the others have said.

 

Subject 3: Anti Aircraft.

--With the lack of ranged firepower, and range in that firepower... We're limited to flying monstrous creatures, standard str6 side armor hits. Soul Grinders. Psychic powers on FMC's(sorry khorne fluffers). Maybe the Screamers if the side armor is 10. The 50% chance to get a Bolt of Change on horrors(auto hit). What else am I missing?

Allies? There are also a few shooting attacks that can be gained as Rewards, but you can't really rely on getting those.

 

Also, Beams cannot affect Zooming flyers and FMCs (RB FAQ p3).

[Mutt-Man!]

Thanks for the clerifications. Suddenly being a "bandwagoner" for the new codex is something to honor this time around. Another army for wallet warrior flyer buyers to beat up on, and enjoy knocking winged things with bullseyes painted on them. Another horde army for people to enjoy piling bodies up. I think I'll reconsider my purchases until 7th. I'm not buying into the forced allies: Imperial guard. See you guys next edition.

[*Furyou Miko]

I'm not a wallet warrior. Heck, I can barely afford to eat (and before you say it, my internet is included in my rent). I play flyers because I like flyers. I played fliers before they got good. So stop with the hate.

 

Just because you don't like aircraft doesn't mean that everyone who does is a waacer.

[Shuggnuggath]

If you put a Herald of Tzeentch with Locus of Conjuration and Prescience psychic power in a unit of Horrors with Flickering Fire they can make a half decent AA battery.

 

Substantial volume of str 6 shooting, re-rolling misses.

[Iron Sage]

 

 

"2. 

- A ) Correct, no psychic powers. 

- B ) Read page 38. Units of 11-15 generate 2 warp charges, 16+ generates 3.

- C ) You can get up to 4D6 shots, which is a decent amount of S5. 12 S5 shots, on average, would get six hits, four wounds, and 1.3 kills. Or you can get lucky, and kill more. Either way, it also causes Soulblaze and potentially more wounds."

 

While this is RAW at the time being (before we get a faq), you are far to intelligent to not immediatly realise that this is NOT RAI!

 

I agree that this is how it is in a tournament (unless houseruled) at the time being, but if you play a git that opens the BRB to tell you that you cant generate a power when the unit is spawned in mid-game, then pack your stuff and head out the door. Such :cusss are not worth spending even a second playing any game with. And i am sure you agree...

 

It is very, very obvious that horrors generate a spell. Very obvious indeed. RAW or not, there is something which is called "common sense"...

 

[Seahawk]

It's not at all obvious, actually.

 

Just like the Fiends have introduced something new and not covered by the rules (Initiative 0), we now also have psykers popping into existence mid-game, when the rules clearly state that powers are only generated pre-game.

 

How are we to know which way is which? GW's FAQs make terrible reversals of such "obvious intentions" all the time. Save judgmental attitudes for the truly deserving.

[Cheex]

It's not at all obvious, actually.

 

Just like the Fiends have introduced something new and not covered by the rules (Initiative 0), we now also have psykers popping into existence mid-game, when the rules clearly state that powers are only generated pre-game.

 

How are we to know which way is which? GW's FAQs make terrible reversals of such "obvious intentions" all the time. Save judgmental attitudes for the truly deserving.

I agree.

 

Though honestly, if you pack up and leave a game because I sided with RAW rather than deciding in your favour, then I will not cry.

 

If you think this might be an issue, just bring it up before the game. If it's still an issue, offer to D6 it.

[*Furyou Miko]

Sadly, the RAI sides with the RAW in this case, clearly.

 

After all, Horrors are Tzeentch Daemons, and Tzeentch doesn't get anything nice. Therefore, them not getting powers is blatantly the author's intentions, because the author loathes Tzeentch.

[Iron Sage]

Err, sure. Or you can use common sense and choose not to be an a-sshole  and treat it like one would treat the Scroll of Magnus which is most obviously the intent.

 

Not that this would be an issue with anyone I play with. I did use to play with a dick or two a couple of years ago, and I am sure Torstein for instance, would have insisted that the horrors would get no spells. Then again, thankfully, such gamers are relativly rare.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'd rather play facing the RAW enthusiast, then the guy who likes to insist RAI to benefit himself.

 

/shrug

[Iron Sage]

I'd rather play facing the RAW enthusiast, then the guy who likes to insist RAI to benefit himself.

 

/shrug

Lol!

 

RAI to "benefit himself". Its fine that you dont like my forum persona and want to bitch a bit, which I can assure you, is 100% mutual judging by the imbecilè crap you have written the last 2 weeks, but seriously? If you want to insult me, try harder is all I have to say. It it completly hillarious that THIS comes from you, ironic as it is. If you dont understand why, then I can`t help you so to speak...

 

As for RAI just to "benefit" himself, man, I own 0% Horror models, hahahahaha. I just have a brain. Thats all really. Common sense and a mind that works, and unlike you, I lack the will to "beat" the opponent no matter what, using rules you know to be incorrect if you use your tiny greys even for a split second.

 

 

Anyway. No one is forcing you to think.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's sad you assume my post was aimed at you directly.

 

It was firmly a RAW versus RAI message.  Nothing more.

[Iron Sage]

It's sad you assume my post was aimed at you directly.

 

It was firmly a RAW versus RAI message.  Nothing more.

So you claim, despite your insinuation being fairly telling.  If I believed that to be true, then I would have partly apologiced.

 

Anyway, I am certainly not one who would deny my opponent the oppurtunity to roll a spell for his freshly spawned unit of horrors. It is great to see that Sportsmanship is alive and well...

[Gentlemanloser]

Check my sig...

[Iron Sage]

Check my sig...

Ok, I`ll give you that. Fair is fair. If that is your (and no, I didnt look at your sig previously)  general motto, then thats alright. Not that I agree obviously, but fair is fair. Consistance is after all important, despite how God-awful ones cause might be. At least there is a red line.

 

Very well, I humbly apologice for the harsh language. I strongly dissagree with very many of your posts and find some of them quite annoying, but fair is fair.

 

Funny thing is of course that RAW is not even 100% clear (yes, I said it was fairly clear, though that was more or less meant as "fairly clear in its ommission of what obviously should have been  there"), as Scroll of Magnus already has set a precedent for what, to me, obviously, is what happens when a fresh unit of horrors is spawned (i.e. it obviously rolls a psycich power). You might worship RAW and laywer the rules harhsly. For me its a game for mutual enjoyment and so I would never ever in my life dream of ever pulling such a (depite arguably being "RAW")  dirty stunt on my opponent.

To me, this is pretty much the Khorne axe debate all over again. When CSM came out, it was pretty clear indeed that DPs could take that Axe, but the RAW inquisitors did then, as now, state that it was not legal (despite the very rules on the axe pointing to that exact use). Then I just shaked my head, and while this is arguably a smaller issue (I mean, one can always spawn plaguebearers or daemonettes, one doesnt HAVE to spawn horrors, though it would be immensly lame if you guys were correct and there was 0% point in summoning Tzeentchs little ones), I still very much roll my eyes when people claim that they would disallow horrors getting a power in a friendly game.

In a tournament, obviously RAW must be followed to the letter as there can be no doubt in such a setting. A game between friends? Use common sense and dont be a prick IMO. Look at Scroll of Magnus (which is also a 6ed dex obviously), then look at the portaglyph and add 1+1.  Its pretty obvious that spawning horrors would be worse than useless if you are right. Therefore, logically , you cannot be right, since no unit is supposed to be completly useless and I really dont understand how anyone can even see it differently unless you only, only play in a tournament setting, in which case you have to wait for a FAQ.

If you dont play in a tournement, your opponent is certainly not a "friend", if he would insist in making such ruling (if you play a tzeentch themed army your opponent would have to be a real huge dick to deny you a power if you spawn new horrors).

[Gentlemanloser]

All my friends have agreed that RAW is the best way to play, as otherwise we have endless discussions (usually over beer) about everyones differing RAI.

My friends and I follow RAW. We are neither laywers, inqusitors, worshipers, pull dirty stunts, are pricks, are powergaming baby seal clubbers or heads.

We just like a gameset where we can all follow the rules, without personal bias.

Your millage may vary.

Edit: Missed really huge :cuss from the list of fairly telling insinuations.

[Iron Sage]

All my friends have agreed that RAW is the best way to play, as otherwise we have endless discussions (usually over beer) about everyones differing RAI.

My friends and I follow RAW. We are neither laywers, inqusitors, worshipers, pull dirty stunts, are pricks, are powergaming baby seal clubbers or heads.

We just like a gameset where we can all follow the rules, without personal bias.

Your millage may vary.

Edit: Missed really huge from the list of fairly telling insinuations.

Fair enough, me and my friends like rational thought and just general common sense on our side (It might indeed surprise you, that we too, follow RAW as long as its not obvously in error.) Having read your infantile pathetic trolling at the dawn of the daemon codex, I assumed that dick (for lack of better uncensored words) would be a fairly fitting description for someone writing that kind of childish crap. As for all these "insinuations", I teach teens. I see them and hear them (laden with negative "punches) quite, quite often. It`s a rather boring form of rethorical agression when you see and hear it that often, which is one of the reasons why I prefer honesty and being blunt enough to actually say what I actually mean instead of hiding behind pathetic veiled insults usually found in the classroom.

[*Furyou Miko]

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