Sammael Speeder as Warlord?

[Cactus]

Sammael in his land speeder has no leadership value and thus can't be your warlord. Necessitating another HQ choice on top of the ~200pts Ravenwing Master is, in my opinion, another strike against that option.

[Brother Immolator]

Sammael in his land speeder has no leadership value and thus can't be your warlord. Necessitating another HQ choice on top of the ~200pts Ravenwing Master is, in my opinion, another strike against that option.

 

Not to sound squeemish but....where does it say that? Same thing stands for Bjorn too? Because I have seen a couple of Bjorn led armies.

EDIT: Cant find an entry on both the BRB and our codex saying anything about that. Not that the warlord needs a LD  value either only that they need be hq.  I guess since the sableclaw is an upgrade to a warlord, he cant stop been one.

[Rizara]

it doesn't say you can't have a character with no leadership leading your army, however, if your character has no leadership value, then they normally wont be using the warlord traits.   On page 111, of the rulebook (at least the mini), it states that your warlord is always the HQ choice character with the Highest Leadership.   So, if you were to take sammael only, you would probably give him the warlord trait, however, as a speeder version, he has no leadership.   If you have any other character with speeder sammael, then that character automatically becomes your warlord.   Now I don't see anywhere where it states that the speeder sammael can't choose a warlord trait, because of GW being inconsistent with their wordings, but it does state the HQ with highest leadership.  Also Sammael normaly comes with a warlord trait, but the speeder version loses that warlord trait.

 

As far as Bjorn goes, their are armies that use him, but he isn't necessarily the majorities first choice, because he is expensive, and doesn't provide any bonus, and suffers the same warlord trait issue.  Because they take him, doesn't always mean the army is lead by Bjorn, especially since Spacewolves can field two HQ for one slot, and most Spacewolve lists always include a librarian who is now the warlord or leader of the army as per the warlord rules in the rulebook. 

[Cactus]

It's my interpretation of page 111. I don't believe that having no leadership value, even in the absence of another HQ choice, qualifies Sammael-on-speeder as having the highest leadership. It could well be an oversight in the main rules and is worth submitting to GW as a possible FAQ. However, I did also notice that Sammael-on-speeder lacks the Warlord Trait rule that his Corvex incarnation has, which I think lends a little support to my theory.

 

I'm not familiar with Codex: Space Wolves so I can't comment on the comparison with Bjorn.

 

A number of warlord traits are (even more) useless on a vehicle. I'm thinking of anything that affects the unit he joins, or involves close combat.

[Brother Immolator]

It's my interpretation of page 111. I don't believe that having no leadership value, even in the absence of another HQ choice, qualifies Sammael-on-speeder as having the highest leadership. It could well be an oversight in the main rules and is worth submitting to GW as a possible FAQ. However, I did also notice that Sammael-on-speeder lacks the Warlord Trait rule that his Corvex incarnation has, which I think lends a little support to my theory.

 

I'm not familiar with Codex: Space Wolves so I can't comment on the comparison with Bjorn.

 

A number of warlord traits are (even more) useless on a vehicle. I'm thinking of anything that affects the unit he joins, or involves close combat.

 

However Sam is using the exact same entry just a small window to give the new stats. IMHO its the same argument with 4th as to weather he could use the rights of battle, to which the argument is he could. Just an oversight and a bit silly IMHO not to use his traits just because he changes ride.

 

Arggggggg. DAMN QUOTING SHENANIGANS.

 

 

  Also Sammael normaly comes with a warlord trait, but the speeder version loses that warlord trait.

 

As

far as Bjorn goes, their are armies that use him, but he isn't

necessarily the majorities first choice, because he is expensive, and

doesn't provide any bonus, and suffers the same warlord trait issue. 

Because they take him, doesn't always mean the army is lead by Bjorn,

especially since Spacewolves can field two HQ for one slot, and most

Spacewolve lists always include a librarian who is now the warlord or

leader of the army as per the warlord rules in the rulebook. 

 

Where does in his entry say that he looses the warlord trait? Guys he just takes an upgrade which happens to be a vehicle he is not a vehicle by default. Neither the entry says that he looses anything to get the speeder. I am not seeing this as the vulcan mega bolter and techmarine command squad arguments, but denying him the trait and warlord status is silly, there is nothing to contradict this.

 

TLDR: There is no rule that says that the warlord needs to have a leadership and not be a vehicle. Just that the one with the highest characteristic becomes the warlord (which is irrelevant here and IMHO Samm still gets the LD he just dont use it for himself)

 

EDIT2: The Gk dreads and vehicles use LD values to take psychic tests dont they?

[Rizara]

it states on page 58 of the codex, under the two pages for sammael, in the box below where is says Upgrade:.  Sableclaw:  Should you choose to field Sammael mounted on his landspeeder, instead of his jetbike, the following profile is used instead.    The profile for the land speeder has the land speeders, stats, unit type, wargear, and special rules, but it does not have the warlord trait listed under it.  So by choosing to upgrade him, you lose the dedicated warlord trait.  On top of that because he now no longer has a leadership value, you also don't normally roll on the warlord trait tables, because any other HQ choice you take that has a leadership value will get to roll.   Also because the sableclaw is not a character, it can't roll on the warlord trait even if that was your only HQ choice, because under the rulebook, it stats that you must choose a model to be your warlord, and it is always an HQ chose CHARACTER with the highest leadership.  Sammael in his rules states he is a Jetbike (Character), while the speeder just says, vehicle and the types.  So if they don't say character in their unit type, and don't have a leadership value, then it looks like they don't get the option to roll on warlord traits.

 

As for Bjorn, it also means that he can't roll on the warlord trait either, because he is a unique vehicle(walker), not a character and thus can't roll on the warlord traits either as per the rule book.   I am not trying to read into it, but since the argument was made, might as well clarify his stuff as well in the argument.

 

As for grey knights, that is the one codex I don't have, so not sure about them and leadership tests.   All I know, is that vehicles don't have leadership values because you can't break them and make them flee, they are vehicles and gain the attitude of hahaha I am a vehicle and I can run over you, you don't scare me lol.

[Brother Immolator]

They have a leadership value of ten for the purposes of taking psychic tests. Also Sams trait is fixed he doesn't need to roll for it, therefore that point is kind of moot. I am still not convinced about the argument that he cant be the warlord since his mechanics don't conflict with anything. His warlord trait doesn't make a use of leadership anywhere, his own leadership or lackthereoff is completely irrelevant for all circumstances both to himself, the warlord traits and the general army and still nowhere is it stated in the rulebook that IT IS necessary to have a value to become the warlord, merely to take an HQ (which he definitely is) and that the one with the highest LD is.

 

Sorry, if an argument ever arises on the tables, I would politely argue my case, if it is refused I would swap him for the bike model out of courtesy and sportsmanship not because I am convinced. When a FAQ hits (if this ever taken into account) I believe they will simply say: He counts as LD 10 and he is a warlord. To do otherwise would be silly (yeah right we are talking about GW no?) and would relegate the option completely pointless in a codex that as far as I am concerned has no such options. Why handicap him with a 90-200 point penalty when on his options it is a free swap? At worst its an oversight at best its a special case of warlordism (yeah I create new words now).

 

 

IMHO the whole case is completely illogical. No offense meant.

 

EDIT: The consensus for Bjorn in some other forums where this has arisen, is that IF you dont have another HQ in the army and since he isnt given too any LD value he can become the warlord. Just a thought.

BTW Simple answer is also here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270521-rules-questions-for-marines/

Sammy seems to be a special snowflake since he has his trait picked up already.

[Rizara]

Brother immolator, I know the rule stinks however under unit types it talks about characters. It states that in addition to their unit type some modes might be noted as being characters. I know it sucks it really does but gw printed it this way, which now means that an awesome charcter has an upgrade that removes his character status. Not wanting to push the argument, just trying to point out gas flawed loops. I get lots of time to learn the rules and read them just not enough time to play the game and have fun losing with my army (and yes I lose more than I win when I do get to play)

 

Regardless as stone points out that rear armor sucks and is just another addition to why speeder Sammy is the worst character choice even with amazing Dakar built in.

[Brother Immolator]

Call me whatever you want but I have yet to loose a vehicle from rear shots in a game that doesn't involve deepstrikes. Its not that difficult to protect rear facings. Though I have seen a match in 4th where sam was pawned by a Salamander plasma pistol. It can happen but that doesn't reduce him IMHO. He still gets his inv and HP. If anything the inv save protects his behind somewhat, so loosing him from boltershots wont be that ncommon.

Sammies
Speeder doesn't suck because of his guns, he doesn't suck because of
his F&S AV14, he doesn't suck because of his Warlord status(or
lack), he sucks because vehicles with Rear AV10 get owned in CC in 6th.
Get him close enough to use his guns and next turn he is dead meat.

Just my opinion

With all due respect Stobz but why would you have him in CC range? His weapons are 36 inches.

Brother immolator, I know the rule stinks however under unit types it talks about characters. It states that in addition to their unit type some modes might be noted as being characters. I know it sucks it really does but gw printed it this way, which now means that an awesome charcter has an upgrade that removes his character status. Not wanting to push the argument, just trying to point out gas flawed loops. I get lots of time to learn the rules and read them just not enough time to play the game and have fun losing with my army (and yes I lose more than I win when I do get to play)

Regardless as stone points out that rear armor sucks and is just another addition to why speeder Sammy is the worst character choice even with amazing Dakar built in.

That is a good argument and the only one I have found to be true thus far. Internet cookies to you sir I capitulate. GWs staff Inability and mental failings come to the fore again. Because we all know that in the mental institution called GW H.Q. you are getting hired when you cant write anything consistent. Too bad because Vetock did a good job, if there weren't these problems it would be solid. Anyways.

Also to clarify suckage or not is not an issue. I rarely use him myself. Its a matter of do or not do. I am not a rules lawyer (in my bankrupt corner of the world we call em something more colorful ) but I just want to know.

[ValourousHeart]

I just have one question....

 

If Sammie doesn't have a warlord trait when he is in his speeder, then why does his warlord trait specifically define how it works when he is in his speeder?

[Rizara]

Because it is gw, he was meant to have the warlord trait but when they wrote the part about his speeder they didn,t add the warlord trait rule, and the only thing gw has mastered when writing their rules is its inconsistency. One book say some thing another says something else and the darkn angels codex has so many typographical errors in it, it's like gw has never heard of and editor, spell check,or even just having one person QA their own books before going to press.

[Interrogator Stobz]

^{They have Lawyers ;)}

 

^{Edit: Stupid font size autochange weirdness.}

[Brother Immolator]

^{They have Lawyers}

^{Edit: Stupid font size autochange weirdness.}

Mighty fine job they do too. Spend millions on a cause even I knew it was lost from the begining (chapterhouse case etc), and I am not famed for my awareness.

There seems to be a peculiar fond(ness) case on your writtings as of late dear friend Stobz.... :D

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yup; it's great to have a little public grizzle from time to time, just in case GW read any of this and fix some issues. I really hope they do, systemic and strategic errors cost us money and put the future of our beloved hobby at risk ;)

[Balthamal]

Without taking any sides in this discussion, sometthing interesting caught my eye in the BRB earlier. Without quoting the exact trait, theres actually one that makes you're warlord scoring and in the text "even if your warlord is a vehicle". Would this not prove definitive? or are Sammy's rules stated explicitly that this isn't the case? Genuinly curious since I don't have the dex handy at present

[Brother Immolator]

As you know only the Heavy bolter is 36", I can get one of those for much cheaper than 200points somewhere else, 24" on an AC is a different matter, unless your opponent is incompetant and unable to play a non linear game that distance will get eaten up in no time and he will die.

This thread is about judging suckiness; I'm just pointing out some obvious flaws in LS Sammy now 6th hates vehicles

Forgot to adress that. Good point, but I still believe that 4+ will do something to adress that. Plus he cannot be meltad from 24 inches or side shot. And you need uber mobility to assault from a 24 inch range. Not Impossible but a tad bit difficult with rolling and all that. A failed charge from so far is a benefit in disquise I might add. Plus its not that he will remain static as well.

Without taking any sides in this discussion, sometthing interesting caught my eye in the BRB earlier. Without quoting the exact trait, theres actually one that makes you're warlord scoring and in the text "even if your warlord is a vehicle". Would this not prove definitive? or are Sammy's rules stated explicitly that this isn't the case? Genuinly curious since I don't have the dex handy at present

Might I have a book/pg on that? The only think preventing him is the character in bold from the rulebook

[Cod]

Hmmm, DA codex, page 28, Warlord Trait Table, Rapid Manoevre: ...or flat out move, in the case of Master Sammael on his land speeder.

 

I cant seem to find it but wasnt there also a rule that if you take Sammy, he MUST be your commander, or something written like that?

[facmanpob]

Hmmm, DA codex, page 28, Warlord Trait Table, Rapid Manoevre: ...or flat out move, in the case of Master Sammael on his land speeder.

 

I cant seem to find it but wasnt there also a rule that if you take Sammy, he MUST be your commander, or something written like that?

I think that's Azrael.

[ValourousHeart]

Because it is gw, he was meant to have the warlord trait but when they wrote the part about his speeder they didn,t add the warlord trait rule, and the only thing gw has mastered when writing their rules is its inconsistency. One book say some thing another says something else and the darkn angels codex has so many typographical errors in it, it's like gw has never heard of and editor, spell check,or even just having one person QA their own books before going to press.

OK, so you are just pissing and moaning. That is a relief, I thought you had a real argument.

Without taking any sides in this discussion, sometthing interesting caught my eye in the BRB earlier. Without quoting the exact trait, theres actually one that makes you're warlord scoring and in the text "even if your warlord is a vehicle". Would this not prove definitive? or are Sammy's rules stated explicitly that this isn't the case? Genuinly curious since I don't have the dex handy at present

Don't worry Sammy can be your warlord, in either form. This whole topic is just the internet groupies being dumb.

This all goes back to our old codex, you wouldn't believe how many people that never even tried to use the Sammy speeder were convinced it was useless, most of them because they read something on the intenet. I love facing those players... it makes my victory so much sweeter. Especally when Sammy is still around at the end of the game and thier HQ died in turn 3. An that happens a lot.

From what I can tell the real problem that they have with the Sammy speeder is the narrow minded view that a 200 pt charcter is stupid unless they can hit someone with a sword. That and then they use a highly one sided comparison to prove their point.

It typically involves comparing the speeder to an equal point HQ, but then adding a 250 pt body guard and a 250 point land raider. But when I point out the lopsided comparison and say why don't we add 500 pts to the other side and see how it fairs then.... they piss and moan that he can't join the unit so it isn't fair to just give him a bunch of other stuff... but won't admit that the only thing preventing the speeder from killing that HQ every single time they meet is that 500 point shield.

[march10k]

I am sure that Zeke and Belial will have the same issues against T5 or higher enemies. .

Not bels...he wounds on 2+, even if you're T10!

 

As for sammy's speeder... The BGB is very clear in stating that the warlord is a character, not a vehicle.  When he takes the speeder, Sammy's no longer a character, he's a vehicle.  Furthermore, the codex is explicit in stating that the previously listed (jetbike) profile is replaced (not augmented) by the following (speeder) profile.  The speeder satisfies the requirement to field an HQ, but, since it is not an HQ character, it cannot be a warlord.   Therefore, when fielding sammy's speeder, you must additionally field a HQ character...no problem, you should be running an interrrogator chaplain on bike with mace any time you play ravenwing, anyway!

[Brother Immolator]

OK we are all Blind as it has been told pg 28 of the codex under rapid manauver: IN THE CASE OF MASTER SAMMAEL ON HIS LAND SPEEDER

TLDR HE IS A WARLORD EVEN ON THE SPEEDER. Also Codex > Rulebook.

 

So yeah, the conversation was very enlightening and thank you all but it seems I was right :)

The fact that isnt stated on the army list section is another of the oversights.

 

Thanks cod_lover

[facmanpob]

@March10k - if you look at P111 of the BGB, and go to number 6 in the Personal Traits list it says:

 

Immovable Object: Your Warlord is a scoring unit, even if he is a vehicle

 

Which kind of implies that vehicles can be Warlords.

[Rizara]

ok, so GW just needs to clarify and be specific, cause some wording implies that vehicles aren't characters, cause they don't say, unit type: Vehicle (character), yet some wording implies that vehicles can be characters.  Either way, if you take sammy on a speeder by himself, he can be a warlord, but if you take any other character that has a leadership value, he can't be your warlord as the vehicle profile doesn't have leadership.  Same then goes for Bjorn for the wolves, if they field him by himself, warlord, if not, not the warlord. 

[Brother Immolator]

ok, so GW just needs to clarify and be specific, cause some wording implies that vehicles aren't characters, cause they don't say, unit type: Vehicle (character), yet some wording implies that vehicles can be characters.  Either way, if you take sammy on a speeder by himself, he can be a warlord, but if you take any other character that has a leadership value, he can't be your warlord as the vehicle profile doesn't have leadership.  Same then goes for Bjorn for the wolves, if they field him by himself, warlord, if not, not the warlord. 

Thats what I was advocating from the beginning before we ve seen the pg 28 thingie :).

 

It was an oversight both from the company and us players/readers.

[Cactus]

D'oh! I think I deserved that.

A day after I say how great it is to have all my rulebooks to hand when posting, I go and post a rules interpretation without checking all the relevant pages and get it dead wrong. Mea culpa.