1500 point Imperial Fist army for tournament

[Valace2]

Master of Signal 85pts

 

Librarian w/ 3 divination powers 135pts

 

3x Apothecaries 135pts (going with the 2 tactical squads and the heavy support support squad)

 

17x tactical squad w/ artificer armour and power fist(for the sergeant), vox, and extra CCW 289pts

 

17x Tactical squad w/ Artifcier armour and power weapon and extra CCW 274pts

 

Predator Executioner w/ HB sponsons 135pts

 

Predator Executioner 110pts

 

6x Heavy Support Squad w/ 6x missile launchers and flak missiles 235pts

 

Aegis Defense Line w/quad gun. 100pts

 

This will be going up against standard codices. There will be speed freaks, a couple Necron lists, a CSM list with Helldrakes, and a few other armies there.

 

As the Necrons will be bring multiple flyers and the CSM lists will have multiple Helldrakes I like the 1-2 punch of the librarian manned quad gun and flak armed missile launchers. Each foot squad gets an apothecary to protect it a little from Helldrakes an massed gauss fire. The Predators are there to keep plague marines an the speed freaks at bay. Depending on who I am facing I might send the librarian out with a tac squad especially if he gets forewarning as one of his powers, I am hoping he pulls perfect timing to negate those jink saves. The Master of Signal hangs out with the support squad.

 

If the games are multi objective I might be in trouble with only two scoring units, but I like this list. Only change I could possibly make would be to drop the cheaper pred an max the tac squads out to 20 and buff the remaining predator maybe with armored ceramite or PoMS

[Jim AMM realgenius]

I wonder if you could make the Tac Squads a little smaller and squeeze in a Volkite Tac Support squad.  It would give you an extra scoring unit and be a great shooting unit against Orks, Cultists and Necrons (because of better range).

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Volkite TS Squads are handy, but, unless you plan on using Pride of the Legion, I think big Tac Squads are the way to go with HH lists.

 

Regards,

[Jim AMM realgenius]

I think the 20 man Tac squads are overrated at 1500 points. Doesn't bring enough firepower to the table proportional to their cost in a 1500 list.

[Valace2]

Well I will be picking up some Volkrite weapons the next time I place a forgeworld order, other than that what would you change. Can't remove the big TAC squads without changing the entire list.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I think the 20 man Tac squads are overrated at 1500 points. Doesn't bring enough firepower to the table proportional to their cost in a 1500 list.

I don't follow your logic here.

 

One pays upfront for units in Betrayal lists, so adding extra troops beyond the basic squad size brings the average cost of a marine down and improves the unit's staying power. However, going for an additional small unit works out as more expensive for the same firepower and greater fragility.

 

Maybe, I've misunderstood your intent though?

[Jim AMM realgenius]

Well, first I'm only talking about Heresy type games, where it is Heresy Marines vs. Heresy Marines.  You are correct in that you get better efficiency and better staying power in a large unit.  But I disagree that you get the same firepower, especially at the 1500 point level.

 

From playing a bunch of Heresy v. Heresy games, anything that deviates from the norm is much more powerful than it seems.  For example, if you have a 20-man squad shooting a 20-man squad, you're S4 AP5 against 3+ armor saves.  Same with assault.  Barring really bad dice rolls, these are pretty even match ups.  But you throw in just one small difference, say a Sergeant with a power weapon, he's going to make a big difference in combat resolution because the forces are otherwise so evenly matched.

 

Now in a 1500 point list, if you go with two 20-man Tactical squads, that's a big chunk of your force.  Even at bare, no upgrade squads, that's 1/3 of your whole army.  If you chose Assault Squads, that's more than half your army!  

 

 

Now at 1500 points, the problem is that one-third of your army can't kill vehicles, can't really kill Terminators and doesn't even kill base-level troops very effectively.  Even with rapid firing or Fury of the Legion at long range (40 shots) it will take three turns to kill a whole 20-man squad and that's assuming you stay at full strength.  If you are facing 10-man squads, you will still have to spend two turns shooting to eliminate the 10-man squad, which means at least 4 turns to kill an equivalent number in smaller squads.

 

Then the problem is that the 20-man unit is more difficult to maneuver and you make it easier for your opponent to focus fire on your big and few scoring units.  And the 20-man is much too easy to kill; if your 20-man gets charged by 5 Terminators you're probably going to lose combat resolution by 5 or 6 and that unit is 75 points cheaper.  If your 20-man unit gets charged by Veterans with a bunch of power weapons, you'll lose combat and have a chance of getting eliminated completely.

 

While the efficiency of a two big 20-man units is nice, I think it is just too much of your army that can't really kill other Heresy-era Marines at the 1500 points level.  I haven't played any 1850 or 1750, but it seems like there's still plenty of points at 2000 that this isn't a problem.  

 

I just think the big 20-man squads aren't killy enough at 1500 points compared to how many points they take out of a small (1500) list total.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Thanks for getting back to me and I agree with most of what you write.

 

The thing I've noted on HH-era games is that you don't need two turns to bring down a normal ten-man squad. A twenty-man squad routinely forces a morale check after a single round of standard shooting on smaller opponents. Now, if you combined that with earlier fire from a unit that has picked off the leader then small Tactical units begin to be in trouble. If you want to go small, the I think that you are best served by Pride of the Legion and Veteran Tacticals at 1500 points as I mentioned earlier. I find basic ten-man squads are just too fragile without the benefit of cover and a decent leader.

 

It's horses for courses and HH-era Tactical squads are all about taking and holding objectives. Big units do that very well and they enjoy a significant psychological advantage. Even experienced players think twice about throwing a five-man TDA squad in against them. They are hitting first and, with opportunity fire and CCW (which is more expensive of course), they can cause a lot of damage before the termites get to hit back. I'd certainly not send in Termies or Veterans against an intact twenty-man squad without some form of support and expect them win hands down,

 

In this case, the Valace2 cited that he was facing standard codex armies. So nobody is going to have the equivalent twenty-man marine squad on table. Whilst I think Pride of the Legion is a great option for HH-era 1500 point games, when facing a standard codex, the large Tactical squad is just the sort of game changer you are talking about.

 

Regards

[Jim AMM realgenius]

I definitely agree about the 20 man against Codex armies. A twenty-man unit firing Fury of the Legion against, say a 30 Ork Boys squad would be fearsome. I usually take Fearless on my Veterans, and that makes the smaller size a lot more reliable. I do find that my squads rally frequently, although I admit it is a big change playing Marines without ATSKNF.

 

1500 is just a thought size for Heresy armies. It feels like the Legion list doesn't really stretch it's legs at that point level, although it is probably better balanced with standard books.