Dreadnoughts and the Inner Circle

[Angel of Solitude]

After having read a fair amount of 40k fiction in the last few weeks, one of the things that you see mentioned time and time again is how venerated dreadnoughts are within a chapter, and that they are usually quite significant heroes of the chapter who in their honour have been immortalised as a dreadnought.

 

The question that comes to me is as follows: is there ever a possibility that a Dark Angel outside of the Inner Circle could ever achieve such legendary status and not be inducted into the Inner Circle? Surely the continual battlefield heroics required for such status would see you rise through the ranks through to veteran sergeant status?

 

Note that I'm not suggesting that all dreadnoughts must be attached to the Deathwing; I guess I'm suggesting that dreadnoughts serving companies 3-9 would have a similar understanding of the Fallen as, say the company master.

[Artemid]

I could see there being a brother of battle deeds legendary who was deemed unfit of the Inner Circle. Alternately, what about interring a Brother who served with the Deathwatch - since his rotation invalidates him from Inner Circle membership?

[Brother Immolator]

Apparently the codex states that our dreads who are venerable are on the deathwing. Dunno how the advancement in this situation works but I think this:

Since the dreads sleep in their chamber most of the time I would think their status (inner circle or not) would not change. Whats the point of informing someone who will be into a comma for centuries?

 

 

 

I
could see there being a brother of battle deeds legendary who was
deemed unfit of the Inner Circle. Alternately, what about interring a
Brother who served with the Deathwatch - since his rotation invalidates
him from Inner Circle membership?

 

According to the expansion, the DAs and their successors get a trait called initiate of the Inner circle and act as double agents within the deathwatch. It is a rare occasion but it does happen.

[Brother Captain Lucian]

With the Deathwatch, look at it this way - if you have a DA Watch Commander...would he be loyal to his legion, or the Deathwatch? His Legion of course.

And with such a position, he would be very valuable for the inner circle.

The Deathwatch sees many Things, and it would not be a suprise to see a fallen join the deathwatch as a Black shield - only to "dissapear" while on mission, and delivered to the Rock.

[Bryan Blaire]

Sure, you could probably become Venerable and have no knowledge of the Fallen, and the Inner Circle could actively keep the Dread away from areas that may include Fallen contact without a "minder," similar to what they do with regular company Marines.

 

The new Ravenwing novels shows

that when a DA Marine of any rank, except those within the Ravenwing themselves, pretty much gets handed over to the Deathwing for disposition upon learning of the Fallen, whether that disposition is induction into the Deathwing as a member or disposal if they fail to impress.

 

 

So it seems that any Dread, Venerable or otherwise, that gets knowledge of the Fallen is probably heading to the First Company.

 

Artemid, where does that invalidation come from? I thought that in the Deathwatch thread that no quote for that statement could actually be found. (Not doubting you, would just really like to know if it is actually stated, because it seems like it would be cutting off your nose to spite your face for the loss of information it might represent.)

[Rikera]

The information is all in the codex, just different areas. I think the answer is no but i'm not sure your asking a valid question. There are many levels to The Inner CIrcle i.e the deathwing to the deathwing knights. There is also "levels of trust" which i think is what your getting at with the company masters, they are not in the inner circle. from the codex:

 

"As veterans rise through the unseen levels of trust, more of the truth is gradually revealed to them by ranking members of the inner circle"

They are trusted with knowing the past etc, that doesn't make them part of the inner circle.

 

also

 

"Only apon ascension to the 1st company, known within the dark angels chapter as the deathwing, will a battle brother begin to learn to events.........this is the first ring of trust within the inner circle and those who are considered for membership.........lead any aspirants before the assembled inner circle for the great rituals of judgement, and those chosen are either elevated to deathwing or disappear forever"

 

The point is not to confuse the trust given to veterans etc with being a member of THE actual inner circle. Dreadnoughts are said to remain part of their original company hence the greenwing/deathwing dreadnoughts so being elevated to the deathwing probably wouldn't happen. Yes they're are deathwing dreadnoughts but as already known they were previously deathwing super elite (probably knights) and are already part of the inner circle.

 

Also no one knows what these "tests" entail. If some disappear forever even after being selected then its no push over. I imagine it would involve atleast some physical aspects which a dreadnought could not fairly do. ED209 failling down the stairs in robocop comes to mind for some reason. lol :D

[Bryan Blaire]

Company Masters, having passed through the ranks of the Deathwing, are members of the Inner Circle.

 

All Deathwing members and former members are at least in the "first step" level of Inner Circle membership.

[Rikera]

Yeah your correct company master's have been elevated to the deathwing and are therefor automatically on atleast the first step into the inner circle.

[Bryan Blaire]

I think the biggest thing that would keep a Dread from "becoming" Deathwing would be as Brother Immolator said: why "tell them the secret" and go through all the testing trouble (which is likely mostly mental testing) for someone, no matter how respected, that will be in a coma 90% of the time until he gives his life on the battlefield inside the giant walking tank? Plus, Dreads are known to go slightly crazy being a Dread, so that may also give the Inner Circle pause about trying anything funny.

[Leonaides]

Imperial dreads dont go crazy, they dont see interrment as being a bad thing (unless they are White Scars or similar, in which case they probably dont get put in a dreadnought chassis).

[Bryan Blaire]

Hmmm, I thought the fluff was still that after a certain amount of time in a walking, waking tomb, any mind, no matter how disciplined, was going to get a little psychological trauma. ~shrug~ My understanding was that was the whole reason they are kept asleep so much, rather than just letting them spend eternity awake...

[Brother Captain Lucian]

I remember a Ultramarine Dreadnought, well not going crazy, but slowly losing his mind. Flasbacking, calling people by names of long dead marines etc.

 

Its in one of the Iron Warriors books..

[Bryan Blaire]

It's just a wording thing then... Slowly losing one's mind = going crazy (just slowly). It isn't berserker-lunatic-kill everything or schizophrenia, true, but dementia does mean madness (well, "without mind").

 

Lucian, that's what I was remembering along the lines of as well.

 

My whole point was that if you couldn't trust the individual with the secret before he was interred, why would you take the risk afterward? Seems like there just might be even more trust/personality problems after interment than there would have been before (Marines may not fear it, but there is likely some psychological trauma from almost dying and coming back as a walking tank - I doubt that everyone ever interred woke up and went "Cool, now I'm really bad").

[[TA]Typher]

 

After having read a fair amount of 40k fiction in the last few weeks, one of the things that you see mentioned time and time again is how venerated dreadnoughts are within a chapter, and that they are usually quite significant heroes of the chapter who in their honour have been immortalised as a dreadnought.

 

The question that comes to me is as follows: is there ever a possibility that a Dark Angel outside of the Inner Circle could ever achieve such legendary status and not be inducted into the Inner Circle? Surely the continual battlefield heroics required for such status would see you rise through the ranks through to veteran sergeant status?

 

Note that I'm not suggesting that all dreadnoughts must be attached to the Deathwing; I guess I'm suggesting that dreadnoughts serving companies 3-9 would have a similar understanding of the Fallen as, say the company master.

 

I really don't see why they wouldn't.

 

 

I've never seen anything that would dictate that a valuable marine from one of the NON-deathwing companies would be excluded. After reading "RavenWing" I'd say that someone from the 2nd company could likewise be interred in a Dreadnought, without having any knowledge of the Fallen.

 

I think it is very plausible that there would be layers of Dreadnoughts, much like the layers of Marines, with different knowledge of the Chapters history.

 

As for them going crazy after many decades/centuries encased in a Dread.. I'd say that would depend on the Marine and the circumstances of how they became entombed. From all the fluff I've read, the process of becoming one of the undying is hard and almost all of the Dreadnoughts live in a constant state of pain and discomfort. They hibernate them to help with this and only wake them when needed. Of course there could be exceptions, in which a mariine seems very suited for this ordeal... the iron hands come to mind. Some marines just wouldn't have the mental fortitude to handle it and would lose it after awhile, forgetting who they are or failing to recall recent events or people, but not all. Bjorn from the Spacewolves is a great example of a strong marine who has withstood millennia in the iron husk of a Dread.

 

Like most things in the 40k universe circumstances change how events work.

 

I've been writing some fluff recently had one of my characters is a Venerable Dread that has lived millennia himself. In my story he was a Chapter Master. too valuable to lose at the time He was entombed.

[Rikera]

If you read through the codex i honestly think its quite clear that they simply wouldn't. Like already cleared up no deathwing = no inner circle, which is not to be confused with the whole levels of trust thing.

 

The venerable dreadnoughts who were part of the deathwing are kept deep in the rock and only used and only awoken in extreme circumstances, sometimes for information from members of the inner circle themselves. The fact that there are numerous venerables held would imply that they would hold different levels of information and/or abilities. Personally, i think this is part of the redundancy systems in place should the highest members of the inner circle be "unable" to pass information down. It cannot be stored on any of the systems used on the rock because the whole asteroid is controlled by effectively an ad mech servo (who can never be part of the inner circle or know the history etc). The marines who become entombed in the greenwing dreadnoughts seize to ever become anything more than a fighting unit so no promotion etc. Any honors received after is THE dreadnoughts...not the body inside, and a single dreadnought could have housed hundreds of bodies once it is retrieved and reused. Its a piece of kit effectively.

 

Marines are selected for the deathwing, face the trials and once in the first company ONLY take to the field in terminator armor. Yes there are deathwing venerable dreadnoughts but like i said they were already deathwing and many of them ancient, caliban ancient. Pretty much like a piece of kit but more akin to a relic.

 

If the ultramarines wouldn't promote the body inside to captains etc i highly doubt the most secretive organisation in the imperium would.

[Artemid]

Bryan: I don't have a source for that, it's just something I've sworn I've read and was stated as true. It appears I may be incorrect.

[Brother Immolator]

Yeah your correct company master's have been elevated to the deathwing and are therefor automatically on atleast the first step into the inner circle.

Actually deathwing knight fluff sugests, that they are in the upper eschellons of the inner circle. They get into the deathwing, prove their loyalty and are been tested time and again and then they become masters in training while they fight as deathwing knights.