Loyalist Fallen.

[Balthus Dire]

Brothers,

 

My Dark Angel army is coming along nicely and is gradually getting painted up. I'm dying to order some miniatures from Forge World, and wanted to field a squad of "Fallen" ALONGSIDE the Sons of the Lion!

 

Specifically I wanted to add a squad of MkIV tactical marines in their old school jet black glory, their commander and standard, an apocethary and a dread.

 

Now here's the kicker - I want it to be fluffy. I want some sort of backstory where my DA Army somehow ally with their Heresy (or pre-heresy) brothers.

 

My main opponent is my brother in law with his SW army - if that could be worked into the story that would be great.

 

I also would love to have the Dreadnaught painted up as a famous Fall-era hero, so I'm considering either the DA Venerable or the Chaplain Dread from Forge World.

 

Any ideas or suggestions (either for the army list or the fluff) would be greatly appreciated.

[cypherkk]

Never happen, there is no fluff reason why DA would willingly ally with fallen.  They have a history of letting planets fall and even killing other marine chapters to recover 1 fallen.  They participated in the 13th crusade, but left as soon as a fallen was captured.

 

Now the  Fallen may not share the same  sentiment.  Some of them feel they were mistaken as traitors according to older fluff and have tried to reintegrate, whichis usually how the DA find them.

[Balthus Dire]

I know this, there is no way the Sons of the Lion would do anything but hunt the fallen... :(

 

Were there loyalist DAs cast into the warp during the Fall?

 

OR...

 

The only thing I'm thinking of as a possibility is if a small squad from the original legion was lost to the warp during Lion-El's initial crusade. Ships are lost to the warp all the time and turn up many years (possibly even 10,000 years !) later.

 

Were any of the DA's past leaders lost this way? This could be the backstory for the dread, the hero/chaplain was gravely wounded and put in stasis, and now finds himself in a sarcophagus, walking beside his squad, and these strange new green DAs.

 

I could even organize a campaign with my Brother in Law where taking control of the ancient fallen (pun) DA ship could be an epic battle...

 

Your thoughts? Either way the modern DAs would need some sort of very concrete proof that the squad was loyalist and was lost before the fall - otherwise they'd be viewed as fallen and forced to repent!

[Drunkspleen]

Why can't they just be wearing ancient pre-heresy armour that bears the old chapter colours?

 

Sorting that out will be a lot easier than explaining why the DAs would accept one of the guys who was sucked into the warp back into the fold.

 

Just make them ancient chapter relics preserved in their pre-heresy state because the great deeds associated with them were so important the techmarines wouldn't let them be repainted or something like that.

 

That is assuming you really are just trying to explain the old armour, if you want Fallen do Fallen, although I personally wouldn't.

[Balthus Dire]

Why can't they just be wearing ancient pre-heresy armour that bears the old chapter colours?

 

Sorting that out will be a lot easier than explaining why the DAs would accept one of the guys who was sucked into the warp back into the fold.

 

Just make them ancient chapter relics preserved in their pre-heresy state because the great deeds associated with them were so important the techmarines wouldn't let them be repainted or something like that.

 

That is assuming you really are just trying to explain the old armour, if you want Fallen do Fallen, although I personally wouldn't.

There's nothing really in the Codex that would explain these revered old suits, though I'd use them that way if it made sense. DA Vets tend to just use modern armour with cloaks, I've seen a few beaky helmets in the spruces but nothing Mk IV.

 

I'd also love to have a backstory to the older style Dreadnaught, and I love the FW Chaplain Dread, so if I could find one of the past ICs to drop into a dread that would be great :)

 

What mission did The Lion fight Russ? Would it work fluff wise if the suits were from this campaign? We're there any other notable characters that fought there that I could have in this "Wolfhunter" squad?

[cypherkk]

Yes, there is, one of the successor chapters uses the DA's old gear, I can't think of the name and my dex isn't in front of me.  They aren't the  black ones, but don't quote me on that, but the successors are effectively still the original legion and they frequently work together to hunt the fallen.  And according to the fluff the chapter mast of the DA still acts as the defacto chapter master of the others, hence "grand master Azrael.'.

 

Ok, I went and looked it up the consecrator successor chapter uses ancient patterns of armor, weaponry and vehilces and holy relics.  And it looks like I was wrong, they are painted aspreheresy DA with the exception of the chapter symbol.

[Balthus Dire]

Yes, there is, one of the successor chapters uses the DA's old gear, I can't think of the name and my dex isn't in front of me. They aren't the black ones, but don't quote me on that, but the successors are effectively still the original legion and they frequently work together to hunt the fallen. And according to the fluff the chapter mast of the DA still acts as the defacto chapter master of the others, hence "grand master Azrael.'.

Hadn't thought of the successors, looks like the consecrators use ancient armour, and in the ancient colour! A lot of them use the beaky MK, but Mk IV would still be fluffy I guess...

[cypherkk]

I wouldn't let that stop you.  My DA "greenwing" will probably be all black in the preheresy pattern, cause "I like it that way".

[Balthus Dire]

Hmmmm... The more I read about the consecrators, the more I'm convinced they are exactly what I wanted initially. Has anyone else noticed that the fluff on the consecrators makes them sound EXACTLY like a Chapter made up of loyalist fallen?

 

"The founding of the Consecrators is unrecorded and their early history totally unknown. Prior to the 3rd century of the 40th millennium there is no record of their existence. The chapter was first recorded in the works of the Administratum field notary Corwen Quilp, where at the height of the Second Kuppukin Schism, the entire Chapter appeared to annihilate the entire rebel force over six hours before vanishing once more.[6] They were again absent from recorded history until three decades later when the chapter's 4th company was seen fighting alongside the Dark Angels at the Arrulas Intervention. They appear to have inherited the most revered arms of the Dark Angels Legion, preserving them carefully through the ages. They bear a close resemblance to the Dark Angels before the Horus Heresy, maintaining the legion's original black colour and wearing the older Mark 6 "Corvus" pattern power armour.

They have their own agenda and soon disappear after their mysterious objectives are complete. They use mostly relics from the Dark Angels Legion, as if they were taken from the Dark Angels' darkest vaults."

 

The only thing that doesn't add up perfectly is the Mk 6 Corvus armour - that'd be too modern for the Fall no?

 

I'm looking now more at a squad of beakies and a Contemptor Dread to represent my Contemptors (AKA FALLEN AND NO ONE NOTICED). LOL.

[cypherkk]

Yes, I did notice that... Awefully suspicious.... There was Mk 6 armor preheresy, though the Raven guard had most of it, cannonically speaking. But it doesn't say they had the only sets of it.

[Balthus Dire]

So in my army list, would using a squad of "successors" (as we shall call them) count towards an allied detachment or could I take them as part of the overall army?

 

Also does anyone know of any famous Rogue Trader era DAs I could reincarnate in the sarcophagi of the Dread?

[cypherkk]

They would  be part of the primary detachment, unless you  were using other marine rules like BA, UM, or BT for them.

 

Which nasty enough and fitting the color scheme, BA allies using Death company with a furious DC dread with blood talons,  elite furioso and likely HQ of choice, could be a great attachment and Azrael could join them for a unit of 4++ nastiness, FNP anc CC death dealing. With Azrael you  could even make them scoring with the warlord trait... Maybe.

 

The furiouso dreads could be supported by a  DA techmarine with powerfield  to help  them cross the board.

[Balthus Dire]

Which would hopefully be enough to kill one or two of the SW Viking beserkers on their bionic wolves LOL.

 

Trying to stick to the fluff though, Old School DAs would probably not be like the BAs. Apart from the DA Codex, what would be the most accurate current Codex to represent the Consecrators/ Old-School DAs?

[cypherkk]

I'd also love to have a backstory to the older style Dreadnaught, and I love the FW Chaplain Dread, so if I could find one of the past ICs to drop into a dread that would be great

What mission did The Lion fight Russ? Would it work fluff wise if the suits were from this campaign? We're there any other notable characters that fought there that I could have in this "Wolfhunter" squad?

Well,the Lion Fought Russ 3 times, pretty much every time is was a single dual. The cause of the fights was the slaying of an ork Warlord, which Russ thought was his privelege to kill but the lion did. The DA also Fought the SW in every game of rogue trader I played in LOL.

Wow, the bA allies and Furious dreads really fits into your idea of a chaplain dread, as they reroll all failed to wounds. If they are supported by a DA techmarine with powerfield they have a 4_++ just like a chaplain too, and he can repair damage to them. and 10-15 deathcompany and/or a furioso dread should be able to take out a full 5 man squad of Wolf riders especialy supported by azrael who is no slouch in cc.

Though if you wanted them to be primary detachment, maybe running them as DA vets works too. That way they stand out from the rest of your army.

[Balthus Dire]

 

 

 

I'd also love to have a backstory to the older style Dreadnaught, and I love the FW Chaplain Dread, so if I could find one of the past ICs to drop into a dread that would be great :)

What mission did The Lion fight Russ? Would it work fluff wise if the suits were from this campaign? We're there any other notable characters that fought there that I could have in this "Wolfhunter" squad?

Well,the Lion Fought Russ 3 times, pretty much every time is was a single dual. The cause of the fights was the slaying of an ork Warlord, which Russ thought was his privelege to kill but the lion did. The DA also Fought the SW in every game of rogue trader I played in LOL.

 

Wow, the bA allies and Furious dreads really fits into your idea of a chaplain dread, as they reroll all failed to wounds. If they are supported by a DA techmarine with powerfield they have a 4_++ just like a chaplain too, and he can repair damage to them. and 10-15 deathcompany and/or a furioso dread should be able to take out a full 5 man squad of Wolf riders especialy supported by azrael who is no slouch in cc.

 

Though if you wanted them to be primary detachment, maybe running them as DA vets works too. That way they stand out from the rest of your army.

This is very true... A Chaplain Dread should be a walking wrecking machine...

 

And from what I understand, the Blood Company Dread is a Troops choice? Are they substantially weaker than the Furioso?

 

With the Death company, I'm unsure how I'd make them fluffy, I don't think DAs were ever close combat specialists with a death wish...

 

Mind you, I'm assuming the Furioso and the DCs are Elites? I'd need to take Troops from the allies section before I could take both. I'd probably be better off (fluff wise and army list wise) to take a standard tactical squad with the Dread.

[Balthus Dire]

Currently thinking the Chaplain Dread with two Dreadfire arms to stand in for the Furioso load out.

[cypherkk]

I'm not saying you have to/should take the BA, I'm just saying it's an option to fill the "fluff of the unit while also keeping them modeled so as to not create a lot of confusion".  But lets break it down like this

 

1 hq Not familiar with BA but I'm sure there is an option

1 elite Furioso maybe not necessary to save points

2 troops 5-15 death company since they  are black (to avoid confusion) they are also great at cc have FNP and can have bolters as well as CC weapons (ccounting for the use of ancient wargear as is style) 1 DC dread with blood talons, (chappy dread) as he rerolls in cc phase, sure it's wounds not to hit but beggars can't be choosers.... 

1 and 1 fast and heavy only if powergaming for fast vehicles.

 

It'd probably run around 750 pts or less hopefully under 500.

 

Now you have to run them on foot, cause allies can't share transports, but that works as they are a "separate" chapter.

 

DA and BA are battle brothers so Azrael can join the death company  giving them 4++ and making them a great enemy warlord/elite unit hunting squad.  And fluff wise appearantly the consecrators aren't afraid of wiping units out taking no prisoner style slaughter.  ala deathcompany.

 

Now,  A generic DA tac squad is fine but it doesn't represent thier fluff as they don't have access to any real specialized gear en masse. And having a black squad in a sea of green squads may cause confusion as opponents may think they don't fit in or are otherwise some elite unit.

 

A DA vet squad works well as you can equip them with all manner of weaponry.  Making them nasy in shootin and'/or cc and displaying thier predeliction for wargear.  It would fit well as they stand out representing the black armor and eliteness of the unit though survivability may be an issue.  And DA characters can join them in Transports such as a drop pod. 

 

I'd say it's really up to you (of course) and how much explaining you want to do with your opponent before the game, which would in my opinion allow for a great nerrative.

 

I will say this discussion has given me a lot to think about too.

[Dark_Master]

Hmmmm... The more I read about the consecrators, the more I'm convinced they are exactly what I wanted initially. Has anyone else noticed that the fluff on the consecrators makes them sound EXACTLY like a Chapter made up of loyalist fallen?

 

Interesting, I've always thought the Consecrators were a little odd, how come they get most of the relic stuff? Surely the parent chapter would hold onto it.

 

Unless they are repentant fallen angels, or loyalists that got caught in the storm that are merely using the stuff they had with them 10,000 years ago.

 

I wonder what happens if a marine caught in the storm appears in the present time and then makes a bee line for the Rock? Future Consecrator perhaps?

 

DM

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Never happen, there is no fluff reason why DA would willingly ally with fallen. They have a history of letting planets fall and even killing other marine chapters to recover 1 fallen. They participated in the 13th crusade, but left as soon as a fallen was captured.

Now the Fallen may not share the same sentiment. Some of them feel they were mistaken as traitors according to older fluff and have tried to reintegrate, whichis usually how the DA find them.

Erm, there was more than 1 Fallen captured in the 13th Black Crusade, and Azrael lead at least one desperate last stand against the forces of-

Oops! I forgot! I shouldn't for a minute believe this chapter is structurally capable of doing anything for the Imperium! Lemme rephrase that.

YEEEESSS!!!!! THE DARK ANGELS ARE EVILEVILEVILEVILEVILEVILEVILEVILEVILEVILEVILEVILEVILEVILEVILEVIL!!!!!!!

ALL HUNT ALL THE TIME!!!!!! THE FALLEN ARE THE REAL LOYALISTS, THE UNFORGIVEN ARE THE REAL HERETICS!!!!!

[Brother Immolator]

 

Hmmmm... The more I read about the consecrators, the more I'm convinced they are exactly what I wanted initially. Has anyone else noticed that the fluff on the consecrators makes them sound EXACTLY like a Chapter made up of loyalist fallen?

Interesting, I've always thought the Consecrators were a little odd, how come they get most of the relic stuff? Surely the parent chapter would hold onto it.

 

Unless they are repentant fallen angels, or loyalists that got caught in the storm that are merely using the stuff they had with them 10,000 years ago.

 

I wonder what happens if a marine caught in the storm appears in the present time and then makes a bee line for the Rock? Future Consecrator perhaps?

 

DM

 

I dont believe that anyone in the present day DA would trust even one of the true loyalists of the time that got lost into the warp (and not the particular warpstrom of Caliban, that one took 100% only fallen angels with it, it has been explisitely stated in numerus accounts). There is simply too much of a risk. Best execute him and be done with it. After all one more marine wouldnt be of much use. Least of all if he starts his critique of 'how the mighty have fallen'.

Mace of redemption on the head.

 

As to the consecrators, there is no proof of anything. Not writen, not impliyed not anything. Only their name which then again it means nothing. Does it mean that the Mentor Legion chapter, are all wise and Legion strength? We are chasing ghosts here IMHO. The only of the explanations I would give the doubt is that they are handed down the fallen equipment and consecrate them for their use. But that too is too risky, those things may have been corrupted by chaos, it would be foolish of a DA chapter master (of all things) to give authority for such risks, more so for the fallen themselves.

 

Absolution for the fallen has been stated many times to be one thing and one thing only: A quick death.

 

: Throws WatchCaptainAzrael  a plasmastorm battery at the head, for his vile heresies (the gear itself, not the plasma shots).

[cypherkk]

Yeah, uhm... We are the... uh... Consecrators, Yeah!  See we have this symbol on our shoulder... not the sword wings.  No, we didn't just repaint it... That would be, eh, Heresy.  Oh, you remember when we were founded, yeah,  it was that time at that place, you know.  Now, lets just kill these rebels here... See ya later Dark Angels... *Vooosh*

[Balthus Dire]

As far as I can remember in the fluff, the Loyalist DAs changed their armour to green to distinguish them from the Lutherite Rebels during the invasion of Caliban. Why would the consecrators be allowed to use armour that represents Luther? Unless the armour was not used by rebels?

 

There is no direct proof, but there's a huge amount of 'grey' and 'unknowns' that you'd never expect the DAs to allow given their singular focus on the hunt for the fallen.

 

There's no way Azrael would fight alongside a random successor Chapter no one knew anything about...

 

...except they're using ancient arms and armour, and happen to be wearing pre-Fall Dark Angel colors.

 

of course the logo is different, so that makes it ok.

 

Too many questions.

[HsojVvad]

Oh I am sure, the Dark Angles would ally up with Loyalist Fallen. Why, I am sure, one day, the DA will capture some Loyal Fallen and it will lead to many other Fallen. Now after they catch them, well, I am sure the Loyal Fallen will still be put to death.

 

Maybe another reason why the Dark Angles will work with Loyal Fallen? Maybe to capture Cypher himself? There is no way, and I mean NO WAY, the DA will give up on capturing Cypher, and if that means to work side by side with Loyal Fallen, then so be it. DA will be side by side with Loyal Fallen.

 

DA will do anything, and I mean anything to capture the Fallen.

 

So willingly or unwilling know, the Space Wolves have access to Cypher or his know whereabouts  of Cypher. Only the Loyal Fallen know what Space Wolf chapter know the whereabouts of Cypher. So that is why the DA are side by side with the Fallen. Call it Allies of Convenience.

[Brother Immolator]

Yeah, uhm... We are the... uh... Consecrators, Yeah!  See we have this symbol on our shoulder... not the sword wings.  No, we didn't just repaint it... That would be, eh, Heresy.  Oh, you remember when we were founded, yeah,  it was that time at that place, you know.  Now, lets just kill these rebels here... See ya later Dark Angels... *Vooosh*

Sorry I am missing your point. I really do.

 

 

Oh I am sure, the Dark Angles would ally up with Loyalist Fallen. Why, I am sure, one day, the DA will capture some Loyal Fallen and it will lead

to many other Fallen. Now after they catch them, well, I am sure the Loyal Fallen will still be put to death.

 

Maybe another reason why the Dark Angles will work with Loyal Fallen? Maybe to capture Cypher himself? There is no way, and I mean NO WAY, the DA will give up on capturing Cypher, and if that means to work side by side with Loyal Fallen, then so be it. DA will be side by side with Loyal Fallen.

 

DA will do anything, and I mean anything to capture the Fallen.

 

So willingly or unwilling know, the Space Wolves have access to Cypher or his know whereabouts  of Cypher. Only the Loyal Fallen know what Space Wolf chapter know the whereabouts of Cypher. So that is why the DA areside by side with the Fallen. Call it Allies of Convenience.

 

Can I has a scource on that?

The only thing I knew that got the Sws In the know was the novel (cant remember the name) that had the wolves meet the DA kill team lions Pride. And apparently when I read it for the second time it became clear that Ragnar has no clue, he only thinks that the enemy 'might' have been a fallen DA (fallen as if fallen to chaos not our slang of fallen) and left it at that.

 

On a side note I fervently believe that some of the fallen had led the DA on others of their kind. I think it says so in the codex too. But allying themselves (as deploying them and equipping them for battle) is a bit too much IMHO.

Plus where did they found 1000 fallen at the same place at the same time and equiped them all to be a chapter? And ok lets say that the DA had the equipment in the Rock (which they did) why hand it down to them? How do they earned their trust? How did marines of the old Legion submit and follow orders from the new DA where every crusading erra marine and his sister would view todays Imperium/Chapters/Marines/Everyone as a travesty of the emperors vision?

They are not immortal by any accounts also and they exsist today because they are deposited here and there.

Plus if they could gather 1000+ marines to create a chapter, that means there were more of them back in the day and would pose a serius problem to forces occupying Caliban before and during the Lions arrival.

 

Imho the consecrators = Loyalist fallen is a good 'romantic' scenario but it has quite a few (gapping I might add) plot holes.

And the biggest of all is that the warp storm did not take away Loyal dark angels, only fallen.

 

EDIT: I am not trying to spoil your day, but I believe we should discuss the matter and get this right according to established lore.

IT IS A GREAT IDEA FOR A SUCCESOR DIY chapter though.

[Balthus Dire]

 

 

Yeah, uhm... We are the... uh... Consecrators, Yeah! See we have this symbol on our shoulder... not the sword wings. No, we didn't just repaint it... That would be, eh, Heresy. Oh, you remember when we were founded, yeah, it was that time at that place, you know. Now, lets just kill these rebels here... See ya later Dark Angels... *Vooosh*

Sorry I am missing your point. I really do.

 

Oh

I am sure, the Dark Angles would ally up with Loyalist Fallen. Why, I

am sure, one day, the DA will capture some Loyal Fallen and it will lead

to many other Fallen. Now after they catch them, well, I am sure the

Loyal Fallen will still be put to death.

 

Maybe another

reason why the Dark Angles will work with Loyal Fallen? Maybe to capture

Cypher himself? There is no way, and I mean NO WAY, the DA will give up

on capturing Cypher, and if that means to work side by side with Loyal

Fallen, then so be it. DA will be side by side with Loyal Fallen.

 

DA will do anything, and I mean anything to capture the Fallen.

 

So

willingly or unwilling know, the Space Wolves have access to Cypher or

his know whereabouts of Cypher. Only the Loyal Fallen know what Space

Wolf chapter know the whereabouts of Cypher. So that is why the DA are

side by side with the Fallen. Call it Allies of Convenience.

Can I has a scource on that?

The only thing I knew that got the Sws In the know was the novel (cant remember the name) that had the wolves meet the DA kill team lions Pride. And apparently when I read it for the second time it became clear that Ragnar has no clue, he only thinks that the enemy 'might' have been a fallen DA (fallen as if fallen to chaos not our slang of fallen) and left it at that.

 

On a side note I fervently believe that some of the fallen had led the DA on others of their kind. I think it says so in the codex too. But allying themselves (as deploying them and equipping them for battle) is a bit too much IMHO.

Plus where did they found 1000 fallen at the same place at the same time and equiped them all to be a chapter?

They are not immortal by any accounts and they exsist today because they are deposited here and there.

Plus if they could gather 1000+ marines to create a chapter, that means there were more of them back in the day and would pose a serius problem to forces occupying Caliban before and during the Lions arrival.

 

Imho the consecrators = Loyalist fallen is a good 'romantic' scenario but it has quite a few (gapping I might add) plot holes.

Brother Immolator's point is that it's very strange that the only superficial difference between pre-heresy pre-fall DAs and the Consecrators is the symbol on their shoulder! And why in the Emperor's name do they get all the ancient weapons and armour?

 

Hsojvvad: I love your idea for a campaign, but I really want my new squad to be a permanent part of my army, not temporary allies that will eventually be facing the blades of reason...