Forgefiends vs. Defilers

[Vorenus]

I have yet to see a Forgefiend used in a battle, but I really like the model and I am planning on picking one (or two) up in the hopefully-not-too-distant future.  That said, I am wondering if the Defiler is actually a superior choice all around.  I've seen Defilers used in combat, having fought against them quite a few times in the past, and they seem to do their job very well.  Both Forgefiends and Defilers take up the same Heavy Support slot, obviously, and both are really similar in terms of cost.  I would like to ask anyone who has played using both, is a Forgefiend really worth it, or am I better off just taking a Defiler?  Thanks in advance for your comments and insights.

 

--Vorenus

[AekoldHelbrass]

I've used both of them. Forgefiend is obviously more effective against Terminators. Defiler is just amazing on Hammer and Anvil deployment. And Forgefiend is way simpler to take to the battle, plus adding magnets you'll have Forgefiend/Maulerfiend.

[Sception]

I've seen dakkafiends do alright.  Honestly, though, even with 'daemon' and 'it will not die', armor 12 makes both of them pretty painfully vulnerable given their high points cost and only moderate firepower.  Maybe consider allying in a soul grinder from the daemons book instead?  It doesn't have IWND, but it's a whole lot cheaper, and has armor 13.

My own preference between the two is for the defiler, though.  Yeah, it's overpriced for its durability (AV 12 is just painful) and offensive output, but the range on the battle cannon has proven useful for me a couple times, and I like the model.  Plus it has fluff specifically tying it to the Black Legion.  None of that is really solid game play reasoning, though.  I like it aesthetically, but in terms of gameplay effectiveness, I prefer the boring old '2x2 oblits & some autohavocs', or something leaning on predators if I'm looking to go vehicle heavy incorporating guard allies.

[minigun762]

I REALLY want to like Defiler, it served me well in the past, but currently it is just too expensive for what it is.

The final nail in the coffin is that you can take the superior Soul Grinder for cheaper.

 

That said, I'm still a fan of the Forgefiend with Hades. It's a good all around weapon system and I use it in place of Havocs for increased armor saturation.

[totgeboren]

I used the Defiler yesterday for a battle, and sure, it costs too much. But it brings something nothing else brings, and that is extreme range, meaning it can stay out of range of things like lascannons, plasma and melta weapons. It is also really good at killing MEQs and hordes, and ok at killing light/medium vehicles, and it is well equipped to deal with pesky outflankers and deep strikers in close combat. The Dakkafiend is only good at medium and short range, but is not really suited for close combat. It is however better at killing light/medium vehicles, and it can pin stuff, which is really useful, but will not kill as much MEQs or hordes.

The Dakkafiend can try to go after flyers though, but your chance of downing one is pretty slim. Havocs and Dakkafiends brings about the same thing, though the better range on the Havocs tend to make me prefer them. I dunno, I just think long range is really really useful.

 

Yesterday my opponent was really lucky, and even though I was hitting with every shot I think, he passed all but one cover save on his Eldar tanks I think. I killed lots of infantry though with the one shot I aimed at them.

[derpasaurus]

Yeah defiler definitely has range down, but the forgefind is a good buy and is excellent at suppression fire against things like guard or xenos, and wounds almost everything on 2. 3 feet of 8 s8 shots is nothing to ignore, even at bs3. and if you're feeling frisky you can have up to 3 s8 plasma templates, tho that makes it a 2' range, and as such i usually prefer the autocannons. On average you'll kill a rhino every turn, and unless you go plasma you don't have to worry about danger close, either.

People complain the defiler is too expensive, but it now has 4hp, IWND, and a 5++. It's well worth the points, IMO. They're definitely high priority targets, so if you're going to use either, make sure you have other threats on the table to force your opponents to choose which they'd rather try to kill first.

[Sception]

At Armor 12, even with the daemon save (long range backfield tanks can generally get cover anyway), it's just far to easy to pen the defiler and kill it outright, bypassing its hull points completely.  IWND helps, but not enough to make up for the 200+ point cost.  Which would be alright if its firepower were particularly amazing, but 200 points is a lot to pay for a battle cannon, too.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like it, and I field it anyway, but it's hard to ignore that I'm spotting the opponent 50+ points when I do so.

 

If you run either of the daemon engines (or the much better predators for that matter), it helps to ally in guard for extra armor saturation.  But if you're doing that the defiler feels even less enticing, what with allied russ tanks offering a superior battle cannon platform.

[minigun762]

Dakkafiend paired with lascannon predator has worked well. Both are strong enough to be a threat to most anything and have sufficient range to hit on turn one normally.

I find that I don't need my heavies to be targeting MEQs as noise marines and drakes handle that just fine.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Is it still worth bringing a Soul Grinder over a Defiler when you figure in the points for the Daemon HQ and Troops choices that you have to take to get the Soul Grinder?

[minigun762]

Is it still worth bringing a Soul Grinder over a Defiler when you figure in the points for the Daemon HQ and Troops choices that you have to take to get the Soul Grinder?

In my eyes, yes.

For example, I consider a 'thirster to be a better (and normally cheaper) buy than a daemon prince. Plaguebearers are better than zombies for claiming objectives, so I've already included the two mandatory elements of my allies. Adding soul grinder would be fairly easy.

 

The bigger question is do I want to ally with daemons or IG, as both have solid alternatives to the defiler (soul grinder and leman russ).

[Brother Ambroz]

There's also the option of taking an allied LoC, PBs and a soulgrinder. LoC is a really great choice with the right rolls.

[Warsmith Aznable]

The Defiler is pretty much just a walking Battlecannon. The extra points are for the close combat ability, which is useful but not by any means necessary. The other long range weapons that should add versatility make it way too expensive in the face of other platforms for those same weapons. So a near 200 point AV12 walking Battlecannon is a ≥2000 points only option, IMO.

 

The Hades-armed Forgefiend comes a little bit cheaper with more reliable armament, and the one expensive upgrade it can carry is dead useful in a TDA rich environment. Its main weapon can also hose flyers out of the sky through volume of fire, which is something I don't trust the Defiler's Reaper to be able to pull off. I believe that this justifies its use in <2000 point games, and the impulse to take them in pairs is less painful. And they are really fun when you have a pair working in support of each other.

[totgeboren]

I guess it depends on your meta, but a Leman at first glance seems like a better choice by far for a battle cannon platform.

But I most often face Eldar, GKs and Tau, and Eldar just shoots me with lances or d-cannon-like weapons, meaning my armour is irrelevant or 12 either way, though the 5++ save of the Defiler is awesome, as it works against fliers and barrage too.

Against GKs I either want to stay out of 36" of his sniper, or outside of 24" from his psycannons, who because of the badly written rending rules treat AV 12 and 14 almost the same. In case of deep strikers, the Defilers is in a much better spot than the Leman though. Against Tau, long range is paramount, and those Railguns make surprisingly short work of AV 14 anyway, so the 5++ does make a difference. Of course, a Leman in cover gets the same nice save, but something I appreciate with the Defiler is that I can place it anywhere, whilst saving the few good spots for things like my Predator. Having an inv save means you can place it where it has the best firing lines, and not care about terrain at all. Handy if you have a hill in your deployment zone.

 

So the Defiler does have some advantages over the Leman. Not sure it should cost more than a Leman though... maybe about the same. Funny thing, a Leman with lascannon, h.bolters and a h.stubber (to simulate a similar all-round layout like the Defiler has) cost the same as a Defiler. So it's not a huge gap point-wise at least.

 

Where the Defiler struggles to compete is in comparison with the Soul Grinder, who is a bit slower (no fleet, though can be bought with the DoS upgrade), but has better armour which makes a huge difference. The Soul Grinder can be used as a CC walker, and it can deep strike too! I can be used as an ok anti-flier platform, especially with no upgrades, though it hasn't got intercept meaning a quad-gun still does the job much better, and for less points. An ADL also doesn't force you to take Daemon allies if you don't want to, and has got twice the AA firepower.

 

I'm not sure if the Soul Grinder is better if you only want a battle cannon platform. The short range could be a problem, and as it has the only semi-useful anti-filer weapon over both C:CSM and C:CD it might not get to fire that big gun many times (as it can't shoot at fliers with an ordnance gun).

On the other hand it's easy to just not giving it a Phlegm bombardment. Maybe the Warp Gaze, DoT and just send it trudging towards enemy lines, hopefully absorbing lots of firepower and killing some vehicle or flier on the way?

 

I dunno, it feels like they dropped the ball when making the new Defiler rules, which sucks for those of us who like it. :(

[Hazath]

Can Grimoire be casted on defilers and forgefiends?

[Iron_Within]

Grimoire can be cast on daemons so I don't see why not as it does have the daemon usr. Worst one is the helldrake with grimoire... 2++ flyer:O

[Warsmith Aznable]

Can Grimoire be casted on defilers and forgefiends?

 

They have the Daemon USR, so it should be able to.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Yup, Grimoire rules state that you must take for target a friendly or enemy model that has the Deamon rule.

 

But Iron, a Grimoired Drake would have a 3++, the grimoire gives a +2 on the invul save, not +3.

 

But i gotta admit that i din't had though about that...mmh...3++ Maulerfiend.

 

its a darn shame that you can't give one per squads like Stormshields, one for Crushers+Skulltaker, one on an herald/prince/GD for Mauler/Drake...

[Vorenus]

Thank you to everyone who provided your insights.  After reading everyone's comments and thinking about it a great deal, I've decided that my army list will include two Forgefiends; I'll save the Defiler for army lists above 2000 points.  I am now that much closer to finishing this army list, a project that I started quite a bit ago.  I normally don't take this long to put together an army list, but I am new to Chaos (my other armies are Deathwatch [using the C:SM], Grey Knights, and Tau), and for whatever reason I have found the Chaos Space Marines Codex has been less straightforward when it comes to list-building--but that could just be a function of my relative inexperience in the context of the Chaos Legions.