Nurgle Mutilators + Grimoire of True Names

[L30n1d4s]

I know many people look at Mutilators as one of the weakest options in the CSM book (except for the odd player who runs a single Nurgle Mutilator as a kind of CSM "Lone Wolf" unit), but I wonder if the new C: CD breathes new life into them.

 

Given that Mutilators have the "Daemon" USR, they can be the target of the Grimoire of True Names special artifact. On a roll of 3+, this gives them +2 to their Invul save. With Mark of Nurgle on a unit of 3 Mutilators, you then have:

 

-2+/3++ armor save

-6 wounds at T5 (so no ID, except for S10 weapons or force weapons)

-Up to 12 Chainfist/Power Axe/Lightning Claw/Power Maul/Power Sword attacks on the charge.

-The ability to DS and also cause Fear

 

All of this for 183 points..... equivelant unit of 5 Hammernators has:

 

-2+/3++ armor save

-5 wounds at T4

-Up to 15 Thunder Hammer attacks on the charge

-The ability to DS

 

As you can see, except for number of attacks, the Mutilators are better in every category and still cost 17 points less. Now, granted, the Grimoire of True Names is not cheap and the effect only lasts one turn at a time, but think it can still make this unit much more employable in a competitive list, especially if it is running as a Body Guard to Abbadon or Typhus, for example.

 

Thoughts?

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Its interesting but I think you have to factor in the costs of taking the grimoire and the demon who uses it.

[Sception]

A bit too much work to put together, imo.  And given the limited unit size of mutilators, I don't think the results are particularly fantastic either.  With their 2+ saves to protect them from regular melee and small arms fire, I think the combo looks better on them then it does on possessed or warp talons - who cost so much that opponents are generally happy to gun them down with weight of fire through their power armor anyway.

 

But still doesn't seem great.  Seems to me like a nice combo if you were already running max units of oblits with daemon allies, but if you didn't think such units were worthwhile before, I don't think this changes that dynamic.

[Smurfalypse]

You are better off using the Mutilators in single man units and deepstriking them aggressively near things your opponent wouldnt want them to assault. No need for this expensive trick that has a 1/3rd chance of failure each turn.

[Sception]

Maybe if you could take mutilators in squads of more than three...  while 3++, T5 mutilators seems enticing, it also seems like too much work and too many points for a squad that doesn't have all that many attacks to throw out.

 

That said, I'd like to see someone try it and comment on how it goes.

[Smurfalypse]

Maybe if you could take mutilators in squads of more than three...  while 3++, T5 mutilators seems enticing, it also seems like too much work and too many points for a squad that doesn't have all that many attacks to throw out.

 

That said, I'd like to see someone try it and comment on how it goes.

 

I mean, run them as a single model and drop them in. Kinda like people do with Obliterators, cept deepstrike them aggressively.

[Smurfalypse]

 

Maybe if you could take mutilators in squads of more than three...  while 3++, T5 mutilators seems enticing, it also seems like too much work and too many points for a squad that doesn't have all that many attacks to throw out.

 

That said, I'd like to see someone try it and comment on how it goes.

 

I mean, run them as a single model and drop them in. Kinda like people do with Obliterators, cept deepstrike them aggressively.

 

Misunderstood what you typed. I get it now, yeah with a large unit of them the 2+/3++ would probably be worth it.

[L30n1d4s]

Another crazy option would be to get 20 Tzeentch Possessed and then cast Grimore on them for a 2++ save... Very expensive and Deathstar like, but who knows, in the hands of the right player, perhaps a viable tactic. Fateweaver can make the Grimore work on a re-rollable 3+, so you have an 88% chance of it working...combine that with Prescience and you Possessed become legitimately powerful.

[Smurfalypse]

Another crazy option would be to get 20 Tzeentch Possessed and then cast Grimore on them for a 2++ save... Very expensive and Deathstar like, but who knows, in the hands of the right player, perhaps a viable tactic. Fateweaver can make the Grimore work on a re-rollable 3+, so you have an 88% chance of it working...combine that with Prescience and you Possessed become legitimately powerful.

 

As much as I loved Possessed I dont see spending 800+pts on a Deathstar that cant really take on a walker in CC is really worth it. Had this exact conversation with a buddy of mine and I just think the amount you are paying points wise will be made up, besides you just kill the guy with the Grimoire and then they are a normal unit of Possessed.

[Nehekhare]

Sadly, MoTz caps at 3+

[Chaeron]

Assuming that it would work each turn without fail, it'd be ideal.

 

Alas.

 

Interesting to run lone Mutilators though - haven't seen that yet.

[*Furyou Miko]

Sadly, MoTz caps at 3+

So apply the grimoire bonus after the MoTZ bonus.

[Nehekhare]

Sadly, MoTz caps at 3+

So apply the grimoire bonus after the MoTZ bonus.

come on

there is no chronological order for "to a maximum of 3+".

[*Furyou Miko]

Does it say "A model with the Mark of Tzeentch can never have an invulnerable save of greater than a 3+" or does it say "The Mark of Tzeentch can never increase a model's invulnerable save above 3+"?

 

If the latter, then you start with a 5++, add the MoTz for a 4++, then add the Grimoir for a 2++.

[Nehekhare]

there is no chronological order for "to a maximum of 3+".

 

you don't start or end with anything. it's a sum. if it exeeds 3+, you don't get the bonus. simple.

 

Grimoire + shield generator would grant 2++, even to a model with MoTz ;)

[Dam13n]

Back to the mutilators...

 

The same can be said for anything with the Daemon USR... Mutilators, alongside possessed, being one of the worst examples in Codex:CSM...

 

This is because 40k 6th Ed is geared better for shooty armies than CC armies.

 

Take a unit of 3 Nurgle Obliterators and use the Grimoire on them.  They gain much the same advantages as the Mutilators, but have the advantage of being able to pump out a scary amount of firepower.  Oh and lets not forget that the Mutilators never score, whilst the Obliterators, in "Big Guns Never Tire" at least, do score.

 

A comparison:

 

- Anti-armour

-- Oblits have Lascannons for long range, Multi-meltas for mid-close range, TL Meltas for close range

-- Mutilators have dual Chain Fists which only work if you get into CC

 

- Anti-TEQ

-- Oblits have Plasma Cannons and TL Plasma Guns

-- Mutilators have Fists/Axes (see above)

 

etc...

 

The Obliterators will be more effective, more of the time.

 

Yes, I'm comparing an Elite choice to a Heavy Support choice, but even comparing Mutilators to Terminators and even special weapon toting Chosen, the Mutilators come off as the worse choice.  Primarily because they have no ranged potential and secondly, because they are a grenade-less assault unit.

 

Still, you're effectively going to be investing a lot of points in one unit, thanks to the fact that you have to take daemon allies with an HQ capable of taking a Grimiore.

 

Of course for me the whole idea falls apart for me in one other major way - the Mutilator models are seriously Fugly, and finecast to boot.  "Rule of cool" therefore excludes them from my army, the fact that they suck as a unit just adds another reason to not take them.

[Iron Sage]

there is no chronological order for "to a maximum of 3+".

you don't start or end with anything. it's a sum. if it exeeds 3+, you don't get the bonus. simple.

Grimoire + shield generator would grant 2++, even to a model with MoTz

Grimoire is a direct in game effect on the model, like a blessing, though. I have seen many argue for that +2 being RAW actually. I don`t know, I am not sure, but I assume the +2 works. Makes the most sense to me havng read it, as it pretty much talks about "character creation" Pre-game and not in-game play (i.e. pre game construction of a character/unit w/MoT, meaning that you cant buy both Dark Aura and Sigil and combine those effects on a tzeentch dude and blahblah).

So I guess what I am asking is: Are you really, really sure about this?

[Sception]

Yes.  Really really.  MoT stops working if the models inv goes above 3++.  That's what those words mean.  Assuming bizarre interpretations of 'to a maximum of 3++' that allow a maximum of more than 3++ is ridiculous.  It's ignoring the rules because you don't like what they say.  It's cheating, basically.

[Iron Sage]

Yes.  Really really.  MoT stops working if the models inv goes above 3++.  That's what those words mean.  Assuming bizarre interpretations of 'to a maximum of 3++' that allow a maximum of more than 3++ is ridiculous.  It's ignoring the rules because you don't like what they say.  It's cheating, basically.

Fair enough. Your may be right (you did nothing now, for certain, to convince me to say the least). I accepted it when you raised the point earlier, but then I had a read, and it appeared not to be so clear to me. How does blessings work then? Look, I am genuinly curious here. Because I assumed the +3 Note in the dex was there to avoid +2 invul builds from being built.

 

To make it clear what I am asking (good morning, Mal), can the +3 cap on invul which the dex has listed on the MoT not be modified by any in game effect downwards? Not even a blessing, if that blessing would state that it so did? That is what I am asking, and I am genuinly curious here. It would be strange if it could never be modified, but if thats really RAW, then fair enough. For instance, a sorcerer w/MoT and sigil could have been +2 obviously with an aura, but he cannot, as the book says that combination is invalid. That exactly was what I assumed this to mean, not that it makes all sorts of in game effects invalid as well.

[Nehekhare]

blessings adress a similar cumulativity problem ("bonuses and penalties from different blessings are always cumulative, but cannot, unless otherwise stated, take characteristics above 10 or below 1."), but apart from that they have nothing to do with the grimoire. Any transference is metaphorical at best.

 

the relevant rules entry is on brb p.2 (multiple modifiers): "first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or substractions, and finally apply any set values."

 

Grimoire and MoTz are both additions, thus both applied simultaneously. You cannot choose to do any of both "first", because there is no chronological order other than for multipliers or set values. 

 

MoTz is an addition with the condition "to a maximum of 3+": if the addition (sum) ends up better than 3+, MoTz is not applied. 

 

so because 5+ daemon save + MoTz + grimoire > 3+, MoTz does not apply.

 

stupid rule actually, but that's how it works.

[Iron Sage]

blessings adress a similar cumulativity problem ("bonuses and penalties from different blessings are always cumulative, but cannot, unless otherwise stated, take characteristics above 10 or below 1."), but apart from that they have nothing to do with the grimoire. Any transference is metaphorical at best.

 

the relevant rules entry is on brb p.2 (multiple modifiers): "first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or substractions, and finally apply any set values."

 

Grimoire and MoTz are both additions, thus both applied simultaneously. You cannot choose to do any of both "first", because there is no chronological order other than for multipliers or set values. 

 

MoTz is an addition with the condition "to a maximum of 3+": if the addition (sum) ends up better than 3+, MoTz is not applied. 

 

so because 5+ daemon save + MoTz + grimoire > 3+, MoTz does not apply.

 

stupid rule actually, but that's how it works.

Okay, I see. Fair enough.  Thanks for the excellent explanation!

 

A bit dissapointing though, in game modifier trumphing that would have made a bit more sense (not convinved the devs considered the implications of all their rules all the time to be honest), but rules are rules.

[*Furyou Miko]

I'm just throwing ideas out there. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. ^^;