Alexis Pollux made a massive mistake. Crimson Fist spoilers.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

So I finished Crimson Fist earlier and, appart from it being probably one of the best naval enguagments I've ever read both in and outside of the heresy, one thing stoo out to me. Pollux made a huge error and wasted the life of a fellow Captain. I'm not gonna put this is spoiler tags cause I've stated it in the title but if you don't want to know more don't read on.

 

 

 

The moment when Tyr designated the Iron Blood as leading the assault why exactly did everybody think storming the battle barge to go toe to toe with one of the Emperors sons was a good idea? Terminator plate or not. I know he says that he was expecting more brothers and Dreadnaughts to back up the assault on the bridge but still against a Primarch? Considering at this point the Fists were carving the Iron Warriors fleet to pieces would it not have been the more logical move to simply surround the Iron Blood and destroy her? Now yes I realise that scuttling a flagship wouldn't be easy but Pollux does commit a lot of his ships to backing up his boarding action only to have them die when they try to break off. If his goal was to kill the Primarch surely scuttling the ship would have been more effective since, regardless of how much punishment they can take, they cant survive in the in the vaccum indefinitely. (The sorce of that is what Gulliman says when he gets back aboard his ship in Fear to Tread. As i recall he says something along the lines of 'he only survived because he was inside the ships shields and even he couldn't have lasted out there for long.')

[Peter the Hermit]

Now you will see different opiniom from some IW fans, like IW were never losing the battle - yadayadayda....

I think if IF stayes they would won the battle and finish of one traitor primarch...But IF are known for following orders ( their thing ), so I'm really sorry for them...

 

Also you are forgeting retreat order....

[Deus Imperator Vult]

I know they follow orders etc... but Dorn's order comes after Pollux has effectivly sacraficed Tyr and a large number of marines and terminator suits. I'm not arguing the point as to who was winning the engagment more that why did he order a bording action when scuttling the Iron Blood was the option more likley to kill Perturabo.

[Peter the Hermit]

Well now you puzzeld me...damn you....Back to reading then....

[Tyrannicide]

Sometimes it's a good day to die. And when you're a Fist, that day is any day out of the week. It's been a while since I read this short, but I do remember that Tyr was such a badass. He knew he didn't stand a chance in hell but was determined to see Perturabo killed anyways. I think it's one of those instances where the Fists might not kill the Primarch, but they at least wanted to make him bleed for the damages he had committed against their fleet. The Imperial Fists are arguably one of, if not the most honorable out of the original Legions, so that plays a huge part in explaining why they teleported onto the bridge of the Iron Blood. Plus, visual confirmation of the target can be an important aspect that must not be overlooked.

 

And at some point we just need theatrics for theatrics' sake. 

[Bung]

Its pretty simple.

The boarding actions are part of the 40k void war tactics to cripple the enemy vessel.

Every one of the boarded ship either dead or occupied in fighting is not able to fire one of the ships guns.

Or the boarding party can get control over one of the boarded ships gun and use it as support for the own fleet or in the end taking complete control over the ship.

 

Keeping Perturabo occupied in a hand to hand fight would mean actually taking the leader of the enemy fleet out of the game for some time so that the IW fleet would be without a leader. That would be a time frame where the IF fleet would have a real fleet where the IW would mostly single ships without orders fighting only for themselves without support of other ships. In that way the IF would be possible to destroy more ships of the enemy cause their ships would support each other and follow an overall plan of the fleet command.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Sometimes it's a good day to die. And when you're a Fist, that day is any day out of the week. It's been a while since I read this short, but I do remember that Tyr was such a badass. He knew he didn't stand a chance in hell but was determined to see Perturabo killed anyways. I think it's one of those instances where the Fists might not kill the Primarch, but they at least wanted to make him bleed for the damages he had committed against their fleet. The Imperial Fists are arguably one of, if not the most honorable out of the original Legions, so that plays a huge part in explaining why they teleported onto the bridge of the Iron Blood. Plus, visual confirmation of the target can be an important aspect that must not be overlooked.

 

And at some point we just need theatrics for theatrics' sake. 

I agree and yes Tyr was an absolute badass earlier in the story Pollux says he's favoured by Sigismund and given that performance I can see why. I understand the dramatic impact and I'm in no way saying this was a bad thing from a literary perspective, in more ways than one it was a brilliant plot device, more that if you're looking at the situation from a tactical standpoint. If you are Pollux standing on his bridge, BECAUSE HE WOULD NOT SIT EVEN IF THERE WERE A CHAIR, the more logical and tactical solution surely would be to kill Iron Blood. I do take Bung's point that having Purturabo's mind otherwise occupied makes sense but having massed strike cruisers and battlebarges mauling you would be fairly destracting, not to mention demoralising, to the IW fleet too.

[Wade Garrett]

My two cents:

Capital ships, especially Primarch carrying flagships like Iron Blood, take a lot of killing. A LOOOOOT of killing.

 

Going by Soul Hunter and the Ragnar Blackmane void battles, it's actually quicker to launch boarding torpedoes full of Astartes and have them destroy critical systems than to try and hammer your way through multiple layers of energy shields and tons of armor with capital ship ordinance.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

DIV, I think you're underestimating the debilitating effects of a boarding action on a warship -- especially on a fleet's flagship.  You're not only disrupting that ship's combat functions (gunnery, maneuvering, shield maintenance, and/or small craft launch/recovery for example), you are also going to have a negative effect on the ability of the fleet commander (as opposed to the ship commander) to coordinate the actions of the rest of the ships in the fleet.  If you've ever played a naval wargame (BFG, specifically, since that's really what we're talking about) you should have noticed that in most cases, individual ships of a certain size-class (by that I mean "cruisers" or "battleships") can't kill an equal-sized ship by itself.  It takes combined fire from multiple ships in order to put any serious hurt on, or destroy, an enemy ship in a single salvo.  If your fleet commander is more worried about the boarding party cutting its way into his or her flag bridge than they are about trying to coordinate the larger battle, then the individual ships in that fleet are going to lose their coordination.  They'll still be able to inflict damage on the enemy because they're still capable of firing their guns, but there's a difference between damaging the enemy and destroying the enemy.

 

Now granted, we're talking about a Primarch, and he's likely to be able to partition his mind and effectively coordinate both the fleet action and the defense of the ship.  But the entire bridge crew of the Iron Blood did not consist of just Perturabo.  He was giving the orders, sure, but there were normal Astartes and joe schmoe humans staffing the bridge.  Perty could have issued as many orders as he wanted, but if the rest of the bridge crew was distracted by the fact that there was a boarding action in progress -- a terrifying prospect for the human crew -- then they may not be passing those orders clearly, concisely, to the proper recipients, and/or as quickly as they should have been passed. . . if they even hear the orders or pass them on at all.

 

So even though Tyr had a snowball's chance of actually harming Perturabo (much less killing him), his boarding assault probably contributed to Pollux's developing victory since it would have negatively impacted the Iron Blood's control of the rest of the fleet.  And then Dorn's withdrawal order screwed it all up.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

My two cents:

Capital ships, especially Primarch carrying flagships like Iron Blood, take a lot of killing. A LOOOOOT of killing.

 

Going by Soul Hunter and the Ragnar Blackmane void battles, it's actually quicker to launch boarding torpedoes full of Astartes and have them destroy critical systems than to try and hammer your way through multiple layers of energy shields and tons of armor with capital ship ordinance.

Imperial Fists seem to have forgotten the bold part and tried to go for, as Jacob Taylor would put it, the priiiiiiiiiize.

[Brother_Thorus]

Then we all know  how hard it is to kill a primarch, but to hurt one, thats another matter. getting under thiere skin sort of stuff. you can burn his worlds, (logar style), be alive ( that angers angron :P) and board someones pride and joy. The boarding of the Iron Blood was a great lose in life, but it messed whit Perturabos head. Read angel exterminatus and you will see. psychological warfare seems to be a major factor when dealing whit primarch. :P

[Hyaenidae]

What really hit home for me was the end of the story, where Perturabo was running scenario calculations over and over, especially the line:
 

 

'The battle data scrolling past Perturabo's eyes told of a sudden and total victory. It also spoke of the likely outcome before the Imperial Fists' suicidal withdrawl. Perturabo let the truth cycle past his eyes once more.'  At which point Perturabo whacked the computer with his hammer and stalked off.

 

 

That bit is the part that is damning in my eyes. If the one Primarch known for cold, mathmatical, and clinical decisions could only see a crappy ending for either his entire fleet or himself (either which could be inferred from these lines, both an incredible loss for the IV Legion),  that speaks volumes of how friggin' awesome Polux is. Single handedly hamstringing or crippling an entire fleet while outnumberd would have been one hell of an accomplishment; it's a shame he didn't get a chance to follow through, even at the cost of a total sacrifice. He may have even saved the Throneworld from the siege itself had he been able to complete the attack run (Yeah, it's a bit of a stretch, but the potential was there).

 

Alexis Polux almost left the Iron Warriors crippled and toothless. Glory to the VII.

[Zopha]

Primarchs are hard to kill, what better way to confirm a death but with a corpse.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

What really hit home for me was the end of the story, where Perturabo was running scenario calculations over and over, especially the line:

 

 

'The battle data scrolling past Perturabo's eyes told of a sudden and total victory. It also spoke of the likely outcome before the Imperial Fists' suicidal withdrawl. Perturabo let the truth cycle past his eyes once more.'  At which point Perturabo whacked the computer with his hammer and stalked off.

 

 

That bit is the part that is damning in my eyes. If the one Primarch known for cold, mathmatical, and clinical decisions could only see a crappy ending for either his entire fleet or himself (either which could be inferred from these lines, both an incredible loss for the IV Legion),  that speaks volumes of how friggin' awesome Polux is. Single handedly hamstringing or crippling an entire fleet while outnumberd would have been one hell of an accomplishment; it's a shame he didn't get a chance to follow through, even at the cost of a total sacrifice. He may have even saved the Throneworld from the siege itself had he been able to complete the attack run (Yeah, it's a bit of a stretch, but the potential was there).

 

Alexis Polux almost left the Iron Warriors crippled and toothless. Glory to the VII.

Almost as good as Dantioch. Almost. 

[Veteran Sergeant]

Scuttling isn't fool proof anyway.  Guilliman was struggling to survive because he wasn't wearing a helmet.  If Perturabo was in sealed armor, he would have been fine for the short term.  Plus, he could easily abandon ship. 

 

Ultimately, engaging him directly is the only way to confirm death.

 

Though, to be honest, Primarchs seem to vary in their indestructability depending on the author and scenario, lol.  Maybe a few dozen terminators are a threat to primarchs. 

[Deus Imperator Vult]

What really hit home for me was the end of the story, where Perturabo was running scenario calculations over and over, especially the line:

 

 

'The battle data scrolling past Perturabo's eyes told of a sudden and total victory. It also spoke of the likely outcome before the Imperial Fists' suicidal withdrawl. Perturabo let the truth cycle past his eyes once more.'  At which point Perturabo whacked the computer with his hammer and stalked off.

 

 

That bit is the part that is damning in my eyes. If the one Primarch known for cold, mathmatical, and clinical decisions could only see a crappy ending for either his entire fleet or himself (either which could be inferred from these lines, both an incredible loss for the IV Legion),  that speaks volumes of how friggin' awesome Polux is. Single handedly hamstringing or crippling an entire fleet while outnumberd would have been one hell of an accomplishment; it's a shame he didn't get a chance to follow through, even at the cost of a total sacrifice. He may have even saved the Throneworld from the siege itself had he been able to complete the attack run (Yeah, it's a bit of a stretch, but the potential was there).

 

Alexis Polux almost left the Iron Warriors crippled and toothless. Glory to the VII.

Agreed Pollux is probably one of my favourite astartes in the heresy thus far and it was nice to almost see the beginnings of the Crimson Fists. Also, I was so glad to finally read about a loyalist victory for once without the Alpha Legion just showing up and ruining it as the have developed a haibit of doing. It just seemed like a blunder to me.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Though, to be honest, Primarchs seem to vary in their indestructability depending on the author and scenario, lol.  Maybe a few dozen terminators are a threat to primarchs. 

True and I suppose we could have been left with a pretty awesome scene of Perturabo clinging to the vox mast of a battle barge like Luke Skywalker at the end of Empire Strikes back. It seems to be the killing blow is the issue with Primarchs. They can be beaten down (Reflection Crack'd) Pushed back and bloodied (Battle of the Fang not heresy but still) and cut to absolutle ribbons (Prince of Crows) but if you can't get the death blow they will just get back up.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

What really hit home for me was the end of the story, where Perturabo was running scenario calculations over and over, especially the line:

 

 

'The battle data scrolling past Perturabo's eyes told of a sudden and total victory. It also spoke of the likely outcome before the Imperial Fists' suicidal withdrawl. Perturabo let the truth cycle past his eyes once more.'  At which point Perturabo whacked the computer with his hammer and stalked off.

 

 

That bit is the part that is damning in my eyes. If the one Primarch known for cold, mathmatical, and clinical decisions could only see a crappy ending for either his entire fleet or himself (either which could be inferred from these lines, both an incredible loss for the IV Legion),  that speaks volumes of how friggin' awesome Polux is. Single handedly hamstringing or crippling an entire fleet while outnumberd would have been one hell of an accomplishment; it's a shame he didn't get a chance to follow through, even at the cost of a total sacrifice. He may have even saved the Throneworld from the siege itself had he been able to complete the attack run (Yeah, it's a bit of a stretch, but the potential was there).

 

Alexis Polux almost left the Iron Warriors crippled and toothless. Glory to the VII.

Agreed Pollux is probably one of my favourite astartes in the heresy thus far and it was nice to almost see the beginnings of the Crimson Fists. Also, I was so glad to finally read about a loyalist victory for once without the Alpha Legion just showing up and ruining it as the have developed a haibit of doing. It just seemed like a blunder to me.

Alexis Pollux is an Alpha Legionnaire...

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Alexis Pollux is an Alpha Legionnaire...

Don't. Even. Joke

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Speaking of which, so are you. DROP THE RUSE

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Speaking of which, so are you. DROP THE RUSE

I would rather go skinny dipping on Fenris that be assocaited with them, brother.

[TheCrimsonLancer]

At this point in the Heresy, every major figure in each of the Legions have all been replaced by Alpha Legionaries. However, due to Alpha legion modus operandi, none of them know the others are infiltrators, so they will continue to pretend to be the real thing, thus actually becoming the real thing. Also, all current 40k chapters are alpha legion, but they have mis-directed each other so well they no longer know they are alpha legion.

 

More fun alpha legion facts:

 

The alpha legion is responsible for lectio divinitus.

 

The alpha legion invented tyranids.

 

The alpha legion is responsible for the two missing primarchs.

 

Matt Ward is an alpha legionary.

 

Logan Grimnar was once a alpha legionary, but now he is a member of the alpha legion.

 

Omegon is a hoax created by the alpha legion.

 

Omegon is one of the missing primarchs.

 

Both of the above statements are true.

 

The alpha legion founded the Inquisition.

 

The alpha legion built the Golden Throne.

 

The alpha legion's real primarch is Tzeencth.

 

Karios Fateweaver is, in fact, and alpha legionary.

 

The alpha legion invented chaos.

 

The alpha legion created the Star Wars Galaxy.

 

The alpha legion created the alpha legion.

 

The alpha legion is not actually the alpha legion.

 

There is only one alpha legionary.

 

His name is Angron.

[Dosjetka]

...

 

*ahem*

 

You do realise that you've just derailed the thread with some terrible jokes, don't you?

 

...

 

Either way, the Inquisition wants a word with you :teehee:

[Deus Imperator Vult]

...

*ahem*

You do realise that you've just derailed the thread with some terrible jokes, don't you?

...

Either way, the Inquisition wants a word with you

I recognise my failing and will be sure to correct it. I love the idea of an Inquisitor just going 'Can I have a word?'

[Apothecary Vaddon]

At this point in the Heresy, every major figure in each of the Legions have all been replaced by Alpha Legionaries. However, due to Alpha legion modus operandi, none of them know the others are infiltrators, so they will continue to pretend to be the real thing, thus actually becoming the real thing. Also, all current 40k chapters are alpha legion, but they have mis-directed each other so well they no longer know they are alpha legion.

 

More fun alpha legion facts:

 

The alpha legion is responsible for lectio divinitus.

 

The alpha legion invented tyranids.

 

The alpha legion is responsible for the two missing primarchs.

 

Matt Ward is an alpha legionary.

 

Logan Grimnar was once a alpha legionary, but now he is a member of the alpha legion.

 

Omegon is a hoax created by the alpha legion.

 

Omegon is one of the missing primarchs.

 

Both of the above statements are true.

 

The alpha legion founded the Inquisition.

 

The alpha legion built the Golden Throne.

 

The alpha legion's real primarch is Tzeencth.

 

Karios Fateweaver is, in fact, and alpha legionary.

 

The alpha legion invented chaos.

 

The alpha legion created the Star Wars Galaxy.

 

The alpha legion created the alpha legion.

 

The alpha legion is not actually the alpha legion.

 

There is only one alpha legionary.

 

His name is Angron.

No no no, Tzeentch's actual primarch is the Alpha Legion.