Deus Imperator Vult Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 We know that, atleast as far as getting close to Horus is concerned, assasinating a Primarch is an impossibility... atleast til after the heresy with Curze but isn't that still disputed? We also know that the loyalists are infiltrated to a lesser or greater degree by the Alpha Legion (I've already made my views on them clear in other posts.) but to what degree are the traitors infiltrated? I realise this is mostly speculation but there MUST be some spies out there and it's not like there isn't a little bit of evidence. Malcador somehow having the Lesser Arcanoi deck that belonged to Curze. We know he had those in his posession when he destroyed Nostramo and ran from Dorn so they must have been stolen from him after that meaning the Night Lords must be compromised and to quite a degree for the agent to be able to steal from, arguably, the most terrifying primarch and get them from there back to Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272601-loyalist-spies/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 most of the traitorlegions have members that are still loyal to the big E, but smart enough to keep their pieholes shut. I'm guessing they'd all look for a way to communicate their findings to other loyalist forces Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272601-loyalist-spies/#findComment-3325340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted March 11, 2013 Author Share Posted March 11, 2013 most of the traitorlegions have members that are still loyal to the big E, but smart enough to keep their pieholes shut. I'm guessing they'd all look for a way to communicate their findings to other loyalist forces But how many of those loyal would be senior enough to steal from a primarch unnoticed. I can't imagine Curze letting anyone but Sevatar and Shang into his chambers and I doubt anyone could pick pocket him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272601-loyalist-spies/#findComment-3325477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 It would be fairly hard for loyalists spies to infiltrate the traitors, being purged of their unreliable forces at Istvaan III. And about Curze, well, with his mind powers, it's something that can only go wrong if you plan to double cross him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272601-loyalist-spies/#findComment-3325497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arachnid99 Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 most of the traitorlegions have members that are still loyal to the big E, but smart enough to keep their pieholes shut. I'm guessing they'd all look for a way to communicate their findings to other loyalist forces But how many of those loyal would be senior enough to steal from a primarch unnoticed. I can't imagine Curze letting anyone but Sevatar and Shang into his chambers and I doubt anyone could pick pocket him. Remember Curze is bat:cuss insane, he might well have taken his cards with him when he went down to the torture decks to fetch some more Salmanders to play with, got distracted put the cards down and wandered off. Along comes a loyalist spy and yoink, they're on the way to Malcador. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272601-loyalist-spies/#findComment-3325520 Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Foes Remain Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Or Curze left them on the Phallax when Dorn had him there as a guest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272601-loyalist-spies/#findComment-3325546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Was that the exact deck that Curze had with him when he left for Istvaan, though? Remember, Curze was briefly in captivity after he assaulted Dorn, before he ran off to blow up Nostramo and join in the attack at Istvaan V. It very well could have been seized after he was incarcerated by the Imperial Fists and Emperor's Children. EDIT: Damn, Uriel beat me to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272601-loyalist-spies/#findComment-3325549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 It very well could have been seized after he was incarcerated by the Imperial Fists and Emperor's Children. I believe it is the exact deck BUT I don't have the book or audio with me to quote it verbatum. He was dealing them when he issued the exterminatus order on Nostramo which was after he escaped Phalanx. However I have just read the opening chapters of Prince of Crows and they could have been taken from him after the Lion cut him down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272601-loyalist-spies/#findComment-3326340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andystarscream Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Surely its possible he had more than one deck? he could have left them on terra when visiting, or even gifted them to malcador (im assuming the majority of primarchs visited terra at least once) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272601-loyalist-spies/#findComment-3326345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 Point taken though I cannot really see Curze being the gift giving type haha unless its a dead bird like a cat gives you. 'Happy 311th birthday Uncle Sigilite I got you this steaming pile of eldar entrails.' To be honest I just like the idea of the traitors being compromised because it makes the heresy less one sided than it is currently. I don't have an acutal tally but it seems to be around 1/5 stories ends in favour of the loyalists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272601-loyalist-spies/#findComment-3326369 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andystarscream Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 oh i don't doubt for a moment that there's spy's and the like on both sides, just him having 1 deck off cards :) and true he dosnt seem like the gift giving type now but maybe back then who knows? he has deteriorated certainly but its just idle speculation on my part :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272601-loyalist-spies/#findComment-3326386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Who's to say that Curze didn't use agents of his own to have the deck sent to Malcador even post-Istvaan? Curze is all about sending a message, and being able to have an agent deliver a highly personal object of his to the second most powerful individual on Terra is on heck of a message. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272601-loyalist-spies/#findComment-3326492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Oh, I'm sure there's spies on both sides. . . and I even think that there are some back-channel communications going on, too. Seriously. Look at Nemesis: How did Horus know not to go down to the planet at the end, to send someone else in his place? Because Rogal Dorn told him the assassin team was going to be waiting for him. It's why Horus also told Erebus not to create another Spear. Dorn and Horus both believed that in order for the question of the rebellion to be answered completely and entirely with no question whatsoever as to who truly had the right to rule humanity, either the Emperor or Horus had to win the war themselves, in an honorable and complete fashion. Assassinating the Emperor or Horus would not have answered the question of the rebellion, so Dorn and Horus basically conspired through an as-yet-unknown third party or back-channel messenger to sabotage the game of assassins. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272601-loyalist-spies/#findComment-3326691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Oh, I'm sure there's spies on both sides. . . and I even think that there are some back-channel communications going on, too. Seriously. Look at Nemesis: How did Horus know not to go down to the planet at the end, to send someone else in his place? Because Rogal Dorn told him the assassin team was going to be waiting for him. It's why Horus also told Erebus not to create another Spear. Dorn and Horus both believed that in order for the question of the rebellion to be answered completely and entirely with no question whatsoever as to who truly had the right to rule humanity, either the Emperor or Horus had to win the war themselves, in an honorable and complete fashion. Assassinating the Emperor or Horus would not have answered the question of the rebellion, so Dorn and Horus basically conspired through an as-yet-unknown third party or back-channel messenger to sabotage the game of assassins. /agree 199% Im glad im not the only one who thinks this way. This is also hinted at in the Blood Games short story. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272601-loyalist-spies/#findComment-3326695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paragate Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 If the Officio Assassinorum was not up to the task. One option at the very least would remain. They (Emperor almost certainly- perhaps Malcador and a few others) could employ a Harlequin. This may sound more fantastic than plausible, but if you really consider it long enough, its very possible for them to succeed + cooperate. Asking them to remain quite about it would be the greatest challenge!! I'm talking about spying and theft. NOT assassination. I think I agree with the comment above on 'nemesis'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272601-loyalist-spies/#findComment-3327613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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