Seahawk's Review

[Seahawk]

I've finished up going through the book, comparing strengths and weaknesses of the different gods, and here's my basic review. I won't discuss the special characters, but in general they follow the same guideline as the non-special dudes. It's entirely independent of other opinions, it's all my own here, so if you object...good for you!

Rankings will be 1 = Best, 4 = Worst.

HQ

Greater Daemons:

1. Khorne

I feel Khorne scored the best of the Greater Daemons. They have both WS and BS 10, meaning they'll hit everything except the Eldar Avatar on a 3+ in close combat, and their ranged weapons (rather insanely!) hit on a 2+/2+. Most importantly, however, they come stock with Warp-forged armor, netting a 3+ armor save. It is my opinion that all Greater Daemons get the most mileage out of having two Greater Rewards, since most of them are defensive in nature. With the Bloodthirster already having the armor, it essentially gets three Greater Rewards to all the other daemons' two, and gets to reroll if you roll up the armor.

Add to this that it can Fly, and the fact that it can inflict Instant Death with its weapon, and it becomes more clear why Khorne wins this category. Fastest speed, heaviest hitter, decent defenses.

2. Nurgle

Toughness 7 and 6 wounds are a quick indication of the winning attributes here. Needless to say, the rotting turd pile is tough to kill. It also has poisoned attacks at S6, meaning it'll almost always reroll to wound. The trump card here is that it can take Biomancy powers. Being able to increase its toughness to 10 is crazy big. Only S7+ weapons can hurt it at that point. Getting Endurance or the other powers also help immensely increase its durability.

This one comes in at #2 for its great potential for never dying.

3. Slaanesh

Slaanesh is kind of odd. It has a fairly standard stat-line, but with a nice hefty WS of 9 and I of 10. It's definitely the fastest non-flying MC, with a D6+3" run and Fleet for the charges. Its psychic powers are less than enticing (actually, very few of any of the Daemon psychic powers are any good), though Telepathy has its uses.

Slaanesh is #3 for not being as killy or as durable as the first two, but its still fast and dangerous.

4. Tzeentch

The Lord of Change flies and has 6's across the board, but...that's about it. Divination is decent, and Tzeentch powers are meh. It can dish out decent damage at range, but being only able to use one ranged power a turn really restricts the utility of this one. Its stats aren't the best for combat either, so what does it do? It makes your opponents tougher to kill, like all Tzeentch units.

Warpflame, poor spell selection, and meh stats drop this guy to the bottom of the Greater Daemons.

Heralds:

1. Nurgle

Once more, Biomancy comes to the fore to make him beefy, but really he already tops out with the highest Strength and Toughness over other heralds. Add in having the best mount of all heralds (+2W, +1A), the Greater Reward weapon making all his attacks Instant Death, and the basic Nurgle benefits of Shrouding and Defensive Grenades, and the Nurgle Herald is most definitely the winner here. Oh, did I mention his Locus ability of giving Feel No Pain is totally awesome?

No need to say why Nurgle is #1.

2. Slaanesh

The Slaaneshi Herald is, as usual, fast, slicy, and has great Locus abilities (giving her unit I10, rerolls to hit). Rending gives a nice edge too, being able to wound anything and do it with AP2. Combining the Witstealer sword with Fiends or other things that lower the enemy's Initiative to 0 is a great combo for gibbing multi-wound models.

The crazier stat-line and Locus abilities are what push this god into #2 for Heralds.

3. Khorne

Even though the basic S and T are pretty good here, the Locus abilities, for the most part, fall short of being a strong combat multiplier. He's also only AP3 standard, and has to purchase a Specialist weapon to gain AP2 attacks.

So, not so good as the first two.

4. Tzeentch

Gee, look who's pulling bottom again. This guy suffers from the same problems as his larger counterpart, though admittedly he's better to do it at range, likely hanging out with Horrors or somesuch. Honestly, I think Khorne and Tzeentch may be interchangable here, but that darn Warpflame keeps rearing its ugly head.

Troops

1. Nurgle

Sometimes I worry that I'll keep sounding like a broken record here, but Nurgle comes out on top because it's the strongest (S4 poison), toughest (T4), most versatile (can glance vehicles in CC on a 6 to pen), and has Shrouding and defensive grenades. When combined with a Herald, they really become a power house, and their Plague Banner is quite nice too for the turn you really need it.

As a fun side attraction, there are also infiltrating, shrouded, Nurglings!

2. Slaanesh

Speedy, slicey, rendy, and no weaker than Bloodletters. Again, they're a decent utility unit, being able to take on hordes, elite infantry, or tanks.

3. Khorne

Everyone loves a good Bloodletter! Unfortunately, their toughness dropped to be equal that of a Daemonette, long considered to be pretty killable. Their AP3 weapons can carve up marines, but bounce pitifully off 2+ armor saves. That, and they can't do anything to vehicles and this is where they end up.

4. Tzeentch

Sigh, Horrors. Being only Mastery 1 they can only use powers that require only 1 warp charge to use, despite being able to get up to 3. They're weak and wimpy, though they can push out a decent amount of firepower from a boosted (and deniable!) Flickering Fire. You know, I'm tempted to bump these up to 3rd, but the consistent, un-dispellable power of AP3 weapons is hard to ignore.

Elites

1. Nurgle

Guess what, here comes Nurgle again! The beasts are, well, beastly. With tons of wounds and It Will Not Die, potential for buckets of attacks, and their extreme desire to play that results in Warmachine-esque rules, Nurgle takes the top spot again over the competitors.

2. Slaanesh

Despite suffering a slight nerf in losing two attacks, the Fiends come out ahead by reducing nearby enemy psychic power effectiveness as well as putting nearly every enemy unit at Initiative 0, as well as a third wound. They still have tons of rending attacks, so that's pretty good.

3. Khorne

Hmm, this is starting to look familiar. T4, 3 wounds, and...a 5+ invulnerable save. These guys took a BIG hit, but nearly so bad as those flamers!

4. Tzeentch

Like my other thread, those poor flamers. They lost everything and gained nothing.

Fast Attack

1. Nurgle

The new unit is nice. It's also the fastest of all Nurgle daemons, being jet-pack cavalry! They combine all the awesome benefits of being Nurgle with suddenly turning into fast, maneuverable Nurgle! Crazy stuff.

2. Slaanesh

More new units taking the cake. The Chariots hit hard, though the Seekers aren't particularly powerful.

3. Khorne

The Khorne dogs saw a slight improvement over the previous incarnation, and are more resistant to psychic powers which is nice, but in the end they are still just S4/T4 5+ save pups.

4. Tzeentch

Honestly, why did they even bother keeping Tzeentch in the book at this point? Screamers are as sad as Flamers now.

Heavy Support

1. Tzeentch (post FAQ)

Oh this is why! The Flaming Chariot provides the army with a much, much needed bit of anti-tank firepower. D3 18" lascannon shots are quite nice to spew out when desired, and having an AP3 torrent weapon when you want to obliterate infantry is also super awesome. The one and only shining star of Tzeentch in the book.

2. Soul Grinder

The weapons this guy carries, on a sturdy 13/13 hull, ensures he comes in 2nd. Being the only unit in the book with Skyfire, it's almost essential to have in any competitive list to be able to combat the flyers you know you'll see. The other upgrades it can take, in addition to being a Daemon of Nurgle and gaining Shrouding also help to make this a strong overall choice.

3. Slaanesh

The Seeker Cavalcade is an interesting, though I'd say underrated, choice. Exalted Chariots are where it's at: cheap and extremely killy, with a likely 4D6 Rending hits, you know you're going to ruin a unit's day, and that's just with a single chariot! Being able to take units of three just sweetens the deal...

4. Khorne

While the S8 cannon is nice, it's only AP5. While it's useful for hoping to instant kill or deny FNP to T4 creatures, its much obvious greater value is hitting weak troops in cover, then assaulting them with whatever daemons are on hand. While this seems like a good thing, it's taking up a Heavy Support slot that could be better used by the above. In a competitive environment, where you see 2/3 of your opponents are a MEq of some sort, that big shell will just bounce right off. Still useful for assaulting cover, but there are other, more efficient ways to do that.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Oh this is why! The Flaming Chariot provides the army with a much, much needed bit of anti-tank firepower. D3 18" lascannon shots are quite nice to spew out when desired, and having an AP3 torrent weapon when you want to obliterate infantry is also super awesome. The one and only shining star of Tzeentch in the book.

 

Shame it has to snap shot.  Being a Heavy Weapon.

[Sception]

I think you're underrating the lord of change - 6s are good enough, especially with weapons available to augment that, and while tzeentch lore sucks, divination is great, making it considerably more versatile than the thirster while still plenty choppy, and wings give it the edge over the two land based greaters, imo.

 

Haven't played with it yet, though, so I could be off base.

 

Also, don't like the flamer chariot at all, not just for gentleman's reasons (which I believe will be errata'd away), but also for its extreme fragility.

 

 

Overall, though, I agree with your assessment that while there's a few okay things in other factions (particularly slaanesh), for the most part this book could have been named "codex nurgle daemons", because that's the only alignment with units that seem consistently decent.

[Iron Sage]

IMO the LoC is by far, the "better" daemon from a competative point of view as far as I can see. Very interesting that you rate it as the weakest of the lot. Very surprising though.

 

Dont see why you think its weak in combat either. Unlike the other Greater daemons, it has a weapon that you will usually buy (10 points..) which makes characters explode (yes, potentially harming the LoC, but still),  and has enough str to instant kill most characters, meaning that it is far unlikely to be tied up in asaults. Add this to divination which helps your army or the LoC, and you most probably have the strongest daemon in the codex. You think heralds of tzeentch are crap, I dont.

 

Anyway, you make many good points. Some noteworthy strange ones though, as you think Bloodhounds are weak (they have 2 wounds as well you know, as well as vitally, the scout rule).

 

As for horrors, while weak and slightly dissapointing, I can see ways to use them. They still do as much damage to the foe when down to 1 man you know.

 

Agree on flamers (hard to use competativly when they only work on hordes) and Bloodcrusher.

[Seahawk]

Shame it has to snap shot. Being a Heavy Weapon.

Yea, I totally didn't notice that earlier. I'm betting that the author saw that the exalted flamer couldn't disembark, then figured he was for all intents and purposes part of the chariot so he'd have Relentless as well. I sincerely hope this gets FAQ'd; if not, that thing is going to drop a few slots for being utterly worthless. They can't utterly nerf a brand new unit...right?

malisteen, on 11 Mar 2013 - 06:33, said:

I think you're underrating the lord of change - 6s are good enough, especially with weapons available to augment that, and while tzeentch lore sucks, divination is great, making it considerably more versatile than the thirster while still plenty choppy, and wings give it the edge over the two land based greaters, imo.

Also, don't like the flamer chariot at all, not just for gentleman's reasons (which I believe will be errata'd away), but also for its extreme fragility.

While 6's shouldn't be scoffed at, when it's compared to what the rest of the dudes get it does turn up in the bottom rung. The Staff of Change does have its uses, and makes it S8, which is nice. The obvious downside is that he'll possibly take damage when he kills a character or vehicle in CC!

While Divination is pretty well agreed to be the best discipline of all time, what does it do for daemons? Prescience is always useful, but Slaanesh and Khorne don't need it with their Heralds. Horrors stand to gain the most from it, especially when they have 16+ models. Forewarning, while awesome, is much less efficient for daemons because it only increases their invulnerability by 1, rather than everyone else's 3. Foreboding is utterly wasted, because he has no ranged weapons and can't join a unit. Misfortune is always good, so that's fine. Perfect timing is completely wasted, because the Lord of Change has no ranged weapons and cannot join a unit. Precognition is the true winner of the discipline, but the odds aren't great that you'll get it. If it was like WHFB and you choose the spell if you roll a double, then it'd be much, much better. Scrier's Gaze is meh for daemons, but it might have a use here or there.

That leaves us with 2 useless powers, 2 meh powers, 2 good powers, and 1 great power. 3/7 isn't enough to get me to take it.

It stays the same, even with the Tzeentch Herald, because no units have ranged weapons that would be affected, leaving Divination as not very good.

[Smurfalypse]

Shame it has to snap shot. Being a Heavy Weapon.

Yea, I totally didn't notice that earlier. I'm betting that the author saw that the exalted flamer couldn't disembark, then figured he was for all intents and purposes part of the chariot so he'd have Relentless as well. I sincerely hope this gets FAQ'd; if not, that thing is going to drop a few slots for being utterly worthless. They can't utterly nerf a brand new unit...right?

>

malisteen, on 11 Mar 2013 - 06:33, said:

I think you're underrating the lord of change - 6s are good enough, especially with weapons available to augment that, and while tzeentch lore sucks, divination is great, making it considerably more versatile than the thirster while still plenty choppy, and wings give it the edge over the two land based greaters, imo.

Also, don't like the flamer chariot at all, not just for gentleman's reasons (which I believe will be errata'd away), but also for its extreme fragility.

While 6's shouldn't be scoffed at, when it's compared to what the rest of the dudes get it does turn up in the bottom rung. The Staff of Change does have its uses, and makes it S8, which is nice. The obvious downside is that he'll possibly take damage when he kills a character or vehicle in CC!

While Divination is pretty well agreed to be the best discipline of all time, what does it do for daemons? Prescience is always useful, but Slaanesh and Khorne don't need it with their Heralds. Horrors stand to gain the most from it, especially when they have 16+ models. Forewarning, while awesome, is much less efficient for daemons because it only increases their invulnerability by 1, rather than everyone else's 3. Foreboding is utterly wasted, because he has no ranged weapons and can't join a unit. Misfortune is always good, so that's fine. Perfect timing is completely wasted, because the Lord of Change has no ranged weapons and cannot join a unit. Precognition is the true winner of the discipline, but the odds aren't great that you'll get it. If it was like WHFB and you choose the spell if you roll a double, then it'd be much, much better. Scrier's Gaze is meh for daemons, but it might have a use here or there.

That leaves us with 2 useless powers, 2 meh powers, 2 good powers, and 1 great power. 3/7 isn't enough to get me to take it.

It stays the same, even with the Tzeentch Herald, because no units have ranged weapons that would be affected, leaving Divination as not very good.

I am gonna side with Iron Sage on this one, I think the LoC is probably the best all around Greater Daemon in the book.

Khorne Doggies are actually really really good with two wounds.

The Chariot will be great once they FAQ it. Also the Heralds of Tz can take one and get the weapons and be a psycher. I agree this thing will be very good once it happens.

Grinder of Nurgle is king of that slot however.

You underestimate how good Divination is, do not consider all books alone you have to consider them in how they work with allies. Giving CSMs rerolls and basic buff/debuff support is a big big deal.

Flamers are still very viable. Enough wounds and any unit melts, who cares if they get a 6+FnP if you neuter the squad.

Fiends are boardline insane right now. Charge and your opponent does not get to attack you back, nothing bad about it.

Slannesh Powers are fairly good, their Heralds are really good as well.

Herald of Nurgle only gives FnP, everything else he does is meh. He is actually last on my list, but we both have our opinions :P

Slannesh Furies w/Herald are one of the better fast attackers as well.

Doggies and Screamers are both very good as well. Screamers are VERY good for their points.

The Seekers just do not hold up well compared to the others in that slot.

[Seahawk]

This review is purely in the context of a daemons army and no allies. Does Divination do awesome things for C:CSM? Yea, it does. It still does very little for Daemons, however, which keeps him low. Personally, I almost never use allies because I'm old school (and I'm always running out of points, have no need of them, etc...). 

 

I must admit, I do not see the fascination with the Khorne dogs. They're like a cheaper, infinitely crappier fiend, with all the same weaknesses. Hopefully someone shows something eventually that proves their worth, but for now, for me, no thanks.

 

The problem that I have with the Slaanesh powers, and daemon powers in general, is that there are exactly 2/12 that are a blessing or malediction, and the rest are all shooting attacks that can't be used in CC (because they haven't errata'd/FAQ'd novas yet!). Every faction but Tzeentch wants to be in combat ASAP, and a shooting attack only hinders that, especially when Slaanesh's fleet bonus is awesome.

[Gentlemanloser]

Flamers are still very viable.

 

They're not.  Especially as they can't even hurt Rhinos now without needing to hit rear armour.  And needing a 6.

[Iron Sage]

Shame it has to snap shot. Being a Heavy Weapon.

Yea, I totally didn't notice that earlier. I'm betting that the author saw that the exalted flamer couldn't disembark, then figured he was for all intents and purposes part of the chariot so he'd have Relentless as well. I sincerely hope this gets FAQ'd; if not, that thing is going to drop a few slots for being utterly worthless. They can't utterly nerf a brand new unit...right?

>

malisteen, on 11 Mar 2013 - 06:33, said:

I think you're underrating the lord of change - 6s are good enough, especially with weapons available to augment that, and while tzeentch lore sucks, divination is great, making it considerably more versatile than the thirster while still plenty choppy, and wings give it the edge over the two land based greaters, imo.

Also, don't like the flamer chariot at all, not just for gentleman's reasons (which I believe will be errata'd away), but also for its extreme fragility.<

/p>

While 6's shouldn't be scoffed at, when it's compared to what the rest of the dudes get it does turn up in the bottom rung. The Staff of Change does have its uses, and makes it S8, which is nice. The obvious downside is that he'll possibly take damage when he kills a character or vehicle in CC!

While Divination is pretty well agreed to be the best discipline of all time, what does it do for daemons? Prescience is always useful, but Slaanesh and Khorne don't need it with their Heralds. Horrors stand to gain the most from it, especially when they have 16+ models. Forewarning, while awesome, is much less efficient for daemons because it only increases their invulnerability by 1, rather than everyone else's 3. Foreboding is utterly wasted, because he has no ranged weapons and can't join a unit. Misfortune is always good, so that's fine. Perfect timing is completely wasted, because the Lord of Change has no ranged weapons and cannot join a unit. Precognition is the true winner of the discipline, but the odds aren't great that you'll get it. If it was like WHFB and you choose the spell if you roll a double, then it'd be much, much better. Scrier's Gaze is meh for daemons, but it might have a use here or there.

That leaves us with 2 useless powers, 2 meh powers, 2 good powers, and 1 great power. 3/7 isn't enough to get me to take it.

It stays the same, even with the Tzeentch Herald, because no units have ranged weapons that would be affected, leaving Divination as not very good.

I am gonna side with Iron Sage on this one, I think the LoC is probably the best all around Greater Daemon in the book.

Khorne Doggies are actually really really good with two wounds.

The Chariot will be great once they FAQ it. Also the Heralds of Tz can take one and get the weapons and be a psycher. I agree this thing will be very good once it happens.

Grinder of Nurgle is king of that slot however.

You underestimate how good Divination is, do not consider all books alone you have to consider them in how they work with allies. Giving CSMs rerolls and basic buff/debuff support is a big big deal.

Flamers are still very viable. Enough wounds and any unit melts, who cares if they get a 6+FnP if you neuter the squad.

Fiends are boardline insane right now. Charge and your opponent does not get to attack you back, nothing bad about it.

Slannesh Powers are fairly good, their Heralds are really good as well.

Herald of Nurgle only gives FnP, everything else he does is meh. He is actually last on my list, but we both have our opinions

Slannesh Furies w/Herald are one of the better fast attackers as well.

Doggies and Screamers are both very good as well. Screamers are VERY good for their points.

The Seekers just do not hold up well compared to the others in that slot.

Agreed, though although I think Flamers are Godly awesome de luxe against Horde type of armies, I am sincerly annoyed that there are certain armies (Plague marine spam come to mind obviously, since I am a chaos player) that almost (obviously not completly, since as you say, flamers cass loads of wounds in general) wants to be flamed.But yes, I agree, its hard to judge a unit rationally (as you say, flamers still do dish out loads of hurt) when it has such a God-awful rule incorperated into it. Warpflame just stinks, even though it most probably will not save many enemies with its FNP.

Like you, I too find the Nurgle Herald to be the least impressive of the lot. It has obvious uses. But...IMO Slaneesh, Khorne and Tzeentch are just plain better for their points and they certainly, have more utillity outside just giving a FNP. You also make a sterling point regarding the Screamers. For the love of all thats holy, I can`t fathom the whine concerning that particular unit. Perfectly nerfed and balanced imo.

Eh, no use writing more words. Like so often, I tend to agree with your always very reasonable and intelligent posts. You should be cloned IMO :D

[Smurfalypse]

lol well technically "old school" would have allies as the game originally allowed people taking things from other armies.

 

For all the people complaining about " IG Blob" I am surprised no one values the little Flamer. . . Dont think the idea of a flame template (any flame template) is to kill vehicles.

 

You are comparing the Khorne Doggies to Fiends, they are in two seperate slots though.

 

Just because you are trying to reach CC, does not mean you cannot use a power while you are trying (or before you charge, as in no overwatch/-5 init from Slannesh). The 24" range leadership one is pretty good as well.

 

Nurgle has some good shooting ones as well. Tzeentch is largely far overshadowed by Divination.

 

But we are talking in matters of opinion, so in this respect we will have to agree to disagree.

[Seahawk]

Maybe his clone is you!

The Nurgle herald, as mentioned, also is always bought an instant-death causing poisoned weapon, which is great for MC and multi-wound model killing. All of its locus abilities are useful, in either getting better to-wound, or more hits, or FNP. It's that all 3 have viable uses, compared to the others' only having 2/3 or less being useful. Biomancy also is a decent discipline for daemons. That, and he can have 4W and A with upgrades, at S/T 5 with poison, makes him more durable and powerful than any other herald. He can't be insta-gibbed by fists or hammers, but all others can. That's how I see it anyway.

As for the Screamers debate...they're about equal with furies, and furies are bottom here.

Consider:

3 Screamers = 9/12 S4 attacks, 6 wounds, T4, reroll saves of 1, 75 Points. Maxed: 81/108 attacks, 54 wounds, 675 points.

10 Furies = 10/20 S4 attacks, 10 wounds, T3, reroll saves of 1, 75 points. Maxed: 60/120 attacks, 60 wounds, 495 points.

Same speed, though Screamers can do slash attack and have are reduced to 3, S5, AP2 attacks when you want them.

Basically, if you want cheap, plentiful, speedy attacks, go with Furies. If you want Slash attacks for whatever reason, go with Screamers. I find no reason to ever take Screamers when Furies are available.

[edit] I enjoy the debate! I'm learning other points of view and potential ways to use things; this being my impression of the codex I can only go so far alone, so the more opinions the better. I'm not trying to really change people's view, I'm just explaining how my thinking is going for certain contested units. ;)

[Smurfalypse]

Well, I actually think Furies are the best of the FA choices in the codex :P

 

BUT that does not make Screamers bad. A unit of 9 will make short work of any normal MEQ squad and really lay down some pain on blob squads with their plethora of normal attacks. Their Lamprey's Bite have armorbane, so they threaten any vehicle in the game with their str 5, 2d6 armor pen. Also slash attacks from the flyover offer NO cover saves and just obliterate any unit in cover (again, IG Blobs, any Eldar behind an ADL, est est). I will however say that when you take these guys, you take them as a full squad of 9. This seems to be the feel for everything in the codex, go large or go home IMO :P

 

People like Khorne doggies because they are dog people AND the fact that they are super super fast. They get in and tie things up fairly quickly, without taking a ton of casualties along the way (2 wounds).

 

The Herald of Nurgles abilites are average at best. The FnP is obviously great but he lacks any sort of speed mount so is stick going with a large unit of Plaguebearers as he cant keep up with the Flys. The extra hits on a roll of 6 are meh, and the to hit rolls of 6 are poison 2+ is pretty bad as well. I wouldnt pay for either to be honest. Herald for Herald I would personally take the Slannesh or Tzeentch ones over this guy, but that is with the idea of playing with CSMs.

 

The Lord of Change with some Divination powers and the Grimoire is a pretty beastly guy that MUST be killed or his buffing/debuffing will ruin the opponent. To imply he is bad is off base I think.

 

I think we have different play styles and that may cause us to view the same units differently. Flamers have use to me because they are the main thing in this book that utterly destroy IG. There are other things, but those in particular are well suited to killing large units of trash models. Not saying they are the bees knees, but they certainly have a place I think.

[Iron Sage]

I probably wouldn`t want to take 10 furies, but lol, I agree. Can`t really understand why some people focus on its LD 2. It`s an amazing unit for its points. Really, really like that unit ^^

[Seahawk]

 

Flamers have use to me because they are the main thing in this book that utterly destroy IG.

 

This is why I pass over them now. The entire army can do that, so what do I need a single, pricey, one-purpose unit for? ;)

[Iron Sage]

Flamers have use to me because they are the main thing in this book that utterly destroy IG.

This is why I pass over them now. The entire army can do that, so what do I need a single, pricey, one-purpose unit for?

Heh, that, I admit, is a very good point indeed!

[Smurfalypse]

Flamers have use to me because they are the main thing in this book that utterly destroy IG.

This is why I pass over them now. The entire army can do that, so what do I need a single, pricey, one-purpose unit for?

Contrary to popular belief, it is very hard to beat an IG Blob squad in CC. They get to overwatch with a billion shots (with Divination at normal BS and reroll misses), then they get a billion attacks (reroll misses) and sometimes they have some sort of save mixed up in there to help keep them alive (or FnP).

To think they a unit of 20 Bloodletters, Plaguebearers, 9 Screamers, any max squad in that codex is going to assault an IG blob and win is just not correct. They are very dangerous in CC, that is what makes that unit so good.

This doesnt even touch on the fact that MOST will have an HQ in there (usually a psycher) buffing and adding some much needed killing potential.

As CSM I will only run a Lord in there IF he happens to be using the Black Mace, otherwise it is a lost cause to try and win that in CC, I need dragons for that type of thing :P First time I played against it I ran in a unit of 10 Terms (one being a Sorcerer, had lost a guy to shooting previously) and lost that combat handily. Sooooooooo many power axes haunt my memories!

The Slannesh Herald can cast the -5 init/no overwatching power on them and if it lands then they are ripe for the picking. But again, this is why I think she is the best of the group she has two really really good powers in her category and really good loci.

Flamers have use to me because they are the main thing in this book that utterly destroy IG.

This is why I pass over them now. The entire army can do that, so what do I need a single, pricey, one-purpose unit for?

Heh, that, I admit, is a very good point indeed!

See, we are not clones!!!

[Iron Sage]

Smurf, to me, it would depend on the Daemons list in question. If its Nurglishly full of big soulgrinder blasts and generally slow moving, then IMO flamers bring little that other units would not do better (for the list, since you would then rather probably have beasts and plagueriders to counter speed, deepstirke and etc., etc.).

[Smurfalypse]

Smurf, to me, it would depend on the Daemons list in question. If its Nurglishly full of big soulgrinder blasts and generally slow moving, then IMO flamers bring little that other units would not do better (for the list, since you would then rather probably have beasts and plagueriders to counter speed, deepstirke and etc., etc.).

 

As I said, not saying they are great but they certainly arent useless :P

[Iron Sage]

Smurf, to me, it would depend on the Daemons list in question. If its Nurglishly full of big soulgrinder blasts and generally slow moving, then IMO flamers bring little that other units would not do better (for the list, since you would then rather probably have beasts and plagueriders to counter speed, deepstirke and etc., etc.).

As I said, not saying they are great but they certainly arent useless

Heh, there was that clone issue :P

[Seahawk]

Combo-charges! Since we're talking 400 points of IG (5 squads, 5 power axes, lord commissar worth 100), we must make the same statement about daemons; because of course a single unit of anything will do nothing!

 

My 400:

Herald of Slaanesh with Locus of Beguilement & rewards, witstealer sword

15 Daemonettes (I'd say 20, but only 15 make it to combat :P), Rapturous standard

3 Fiends (I'd say 6, but only 3 make it ;))

 

Two units charge. Fiends drop their I to 0 and they can't attack back. If Fear doesn't work (which it shouldn't) then the banner drops them to WS1 or so anyway, in case you're allowing them to attack back. Beguile gets rerolls on the squad, resulting in about 7 rends and 9 failed armor saves. Then the fiends tack on another 4 failed saves. Finally, the Herald challenges the Lord Commissar who can't refuse, who will likely die due to the sword. 3 more, for a total of 23 kills. Now, provided all remaining IG can attack back on a single unit, their best bet is against the Daemonettes. 18 S3 and 15 S4 attacks later, and they've produced a grand total of 4 unsaved wounds, losing by a whopping 19. Since they no longer have stubborn, they break and are destroyed in the sweeping advances.

 

Boom.

[Iron Sage]

Combo-charges! Since we're talking 400 points of IG (5 squads, 5 power axes, lord commissar worth 100), we must make the same statement about daemons; because of course a single unit of anything will do nothing!

My 400:

Herald of Slaanesh with Locus of Beguilement & rewards, witstealer sword

15 Daemonettes (I'd say 20, but only 15 make it to combat ), Rapturous standard

3 Fiends (I'd say 6, but only 3 make it )

Two units charge. Fiends drop their I to 0 and they can't attack back. If Fear doesn't work (which it shouldn't) then the banner drops them to WS1 or so anyway, in case you're allowing them to attack back. Beguile gets rerolls on the squad, resulting in about 7 rends and 9 failed armor saves. Then the fiends tack on another 4 failed saves. Finally, the Herald challenges the Lord Commissar who can't refuse, who will likely die due to the sword. 3 more, for a total of 23 kills. Now, provided all remaining IG can attack back on a single unit, their best bet is against the Daemonettes. 18 S3 and 15 S4 attacks later, and they've produced a grand total of 4 unsaved wounds, losing by a whopping 19. Since they no longer have stubborn, they break and are destroyed in the sweeping advances.

Boom.

Heh, I love how the Icons work in the new Daemons ^^ cheap seekers can spawn 2 of those blocks right next to each other, which is kind of nifty ^^

Makes the new dex very able to dish out some unseemly squads straight down the throat of the foe so to speak! Also, allying daemons for my CSM is incredibly easier due to removal of Daemonic Assault.

Right now, I only wish CSM daemonic units had Daemonic instabillity, as that would mean they would have far more synergy with CD.

[Smurfalypse]

Combo-charges! Since we're talking 400 points of IG (5 squads, 5 power axes, lord commissar worth 100), we must make the same statement about daemons; because of course a single unit of anything will do nothing!

My 400:

Herald of Slaanesh with Locus of Beguilement & rewards, witstealer sword

15 Daemonettes (I'd say 20, but only 15 make it to combat ), Rapturous standard

3 Fiends (I'd say 6, but only 3 make it )

Two units charge. Fiends drop their I to 0 and they can't attack back. If Fear doesn't work (which it shouldn't) then the banner drops them to WS1 or so anyway, in case you're allowing them to attack back. Beguile gets rerolls on the squad, resulting in about 7 rends and 9 failed armor saves. Then the fiends tack on another 4 failed saves. Finally, the Herald challenges the Lord Commissar who can't refuse, who will likely die due to the sword. 3 more, for a total of 23 kills. Now, provided all remaining IG can attack back on a single unit, their best bet is against the Daemonettes. 18 S3 and 15 S4 attacks later, and they've produced a grand total of 4 unsaved wounds, losing by a whopping 19. Since they no longer have stubborn, they break and are destroyed in the sweeping advances.

Boom.

lol really, you are gonna put in an exact situaion?

What about overwatch on the daemonettes or fiends? What if they can do it at BS or have rerolls? Hows about if they have Najal or another psycher with a 2+? Hows about if they get to reroll their saves? Or maybe a 4++? Or FnP?

Exact situations with units doesnt usually work because they remove what will happen tactically (or even randomly). You might fail your charge with the Fiends and get completely wrecked in CC or your opponent may spend a turn shooting an little extra at fiends knowing the daemonettes will make it to CC (turn three at the earliest for Daemonettes by the way).

The challenge loci from the Herald of Slannesh is beastly though. Reroll hits; challenges cant be ignored; you pick who accepts. . . Sooooo good and why I think she is best :P

[Iron Sage]

Yeah...So cheap for such a beastly challengemonster. Locus+ AP2 on Init is all you need, and you have a better combat HQ than most codices while comming at half the price most probably. For lulz, it can even be a psyker..

[Smurfalypse]

Lets take some Flamers in turn and say that maybe you are able to deepstrike close enough OR get close enough to flame them. 5 survive (out of 9) or are the only ones able to use their template if they deepstrike next to the unit, each can get 5 maybe. . . This is a guess, sometimes a ton more sometimes a little less so going very very conservative with this. 25 hits, 17 wounds, 17 die. This is for a fraction of the price you just threw at them before.

 

Also dawned on me, you say that you will break them, hows about if there are a few normal commissars in there or a character that bring fearless or some other special rule? Blobs usually go with a Marine army, just the nature of the beast :P

Yeah...So cheap for such a beastly challengemonster. Locus+ AP2 on Init is all you need, and you have a better combat HQ than most codices while comming at half the price most probably. For lulz, it can even be a psyker..

 

And her powers are generally good, though footslogging her when she has the option to be mounted and join a fast unit would probably be the way to go (with Fiends, Furies, or if you like them for whatever reason Seekers).

[Seahawk]

What about overwatch on the daemonettes or fiends?

 

> Already accounted for. Would kill 5 Daemonettes (from 20), and why would they bother shooting the Fiends?

 

 

What if they can do it at BS or have rerolls?

 

> Then they've taken Allies and more points are being spent, which means increasing what the Daemons get to take as well. 

 

 

Hows about if they have Najal or another psycher with a 2+?

 

> What about it? None of what I mentioned involved using psychic powers, which is the benefit to doing that over hoping for Acquiescence. Even so, that'd mean more points on Daemons again.

 

 

Hows about if they get to reroll their saves?

 

> If every single model is hanging out in an Iceblood river, more power to 'em. They'll still lose by a huge margin.

 

 

Or maybe a 4++? Or FnP?

 

> If the player is allying in 200+ points of Azrael, more power to 'im, but that means that many more for Daemons with which to destroy them, and they'll still win by a large margin. If they stuck a BA priest in their...again more power to 'im, but they'll still lose by a large margin.

 

All of these counters require allies and still result in the squad being destroyed. 

 

If it doesn't get destroyed, then fantastic, they'll be locked in combat for another turn or two and not get shot. Win-win :D

 

Also, I must live in fantasy land, as I've never seen people take blobs with marines, in any setting, ever. Waste of points/efficiency.