Seahawk's Review

[Smurfalypse]

What about overwatch on the daemonettes or fiends?

> Already accounted for. Would kill 5 Daemonettes (from 20), and why would they bother shooting the Fiends?

What if they can do it at BS or have rerolls?

> Then they've taken Allies and more points are being spent, which means increasing what the Daemons get to take as well.

Hows about if they have Najal or another psycher with a 2+?

> What about it? None of what I mentioned involved using psychic powers, which is the benefit to doing that over hoping for Acquiescence. Even so, that'd mean more points on Daemons again.

Hows about if they get to reroll their saves?

> If every single model is hanging out in an Iceblood river, more power to 'em. They'll still lose by a huge margin.

Or maybe a 4++? Or FnP?

> If the player is allying in 200+ points of Azrael, more power to 'im, but that means that many more for Daemons with which to destroy them, and they'll still win by a large margin. If they stuck a BA priest in their...again more power to 'im, but they'll still lose by a large margin.

All of these counters require allies and still result in the squad being destroyed.

They would shoot Fiends because they disallow them to attack in CC, figured that was fairly obvious to be honest. Sorry.

Overwatching at normal BS = more than five dead Daemonetters, far far more, try 15 dead on the charge (average).

Started to write more than realized it was useless, you are placing an exact situation on the table assuming you have auto charge range, no buffs/debuffs, no allies and your units managed to make it across the board on foot mostly unscathed (against an IG army none the less ) and by turn three (earliest the Daemonettes could charge).

As I said earlier, agree to disagree as this will go on for years

[Seahawk]

I "assume" situations because I make them happen, it's how I play and win. Again, there is no Divination without allies, and I haven't met a single competitive person who'd bother allying with IG (allying SW into IG on the other hand does happen). Simply declaring "The IG blob can't be assaulted so don't ever try" is as false as me saying my tactics always work for everybody.

The Midwest simply has a different set of players I guess.

[Smurfalypse]

I "assume" situations because I make them happen, it's how I play and win. Again, there is no Divination without allies, and I haven't met a single competitive person who'd bother allying with IG (allying SW into IG on the other hand does happen). Simply declaring "The IG blob can't be assaulted so don't ever try" is as false as me saying my tactics always work for everybody.

The Midwest simply has a different set of players I guess.

Problem is, to say that 20 Demonettes walk across the board for three shooting phases or deepstrikes close enough to assault the next turn and is completely intact is a bit discrediting. Unit X does not fight unit Y solo on the battlefield, if you make a habit of assaulting the typical blobs, you are going to lose the majority of those altercations (that includes DA/IG, SW/IG and whoever else is a battlebrother).

Around here we see tons of SW/IG blobs, so this is my basic reference but it also applies to a generic MEQ psycher or anyone who decides to hop in and support it. The point of this whole thing was that Flamers can do what you explained for half the price, and can do it on turn two (a turn earlier than your example) because they can do it after they deepstrike.

Edit** Got a game tomorrow after work, will run a few Daemons as allies. Flamers/Screamers and some troops (probably Bloodletters) and a Herald or LoC :P

Will take some pics and will throw in a batrep and see how they fare now. Though I have no idea what my opponent is gonna play so.

[Chumbalaya]

I can't say that I agree with much of that, really.

 

First off, allies are a fact of life in 40k these days.  You may not like them, but be aware that 6th ed books are written with allies in mind and any review that doesn't take them into account isn't going to be particularly useful.  There are good and bad combinations, just like any normal army, but they are there.

 

GDs: The Lord of Change is probably the best of the bunch.  L3 Divination is huge, even on a solo model.  4+ invul, re-rolling everything and forcing enemies to re-roll saves are great.  Prescience is handy for combat or anything, really.  Reliable reserves are always a plus.  The only powers a LoC can't use can be cast on stuff like Soul Grinders (cover-ignoring S8 AP3 pie plate, perhaps), Obliterators and the like.

 

The other 3 are all solid, really good competition between them.

 

Heralds: Level 3 Divination for 95 points is absurdly cheap.  Everybody loves Prescience bots, especially ones that can cast other zany Divination spells.  Khorne Heralds can give an entire unit Rage or Hatred, what's not to love?  A Slaanesh Herald with Locus of Beguilement and a Greater Etherblade can pick out those irritating Commissars/Rune Priests/Nobs out of problem units to crush irritating blobs. 

 

Characters:  Can't leave these guys out.  Skarbrand is a beatstick with limited mobility and a giant target on his head.  Fateweaver gives re-rolls and crappy Tzeentch magic.  Ku'Gath can't get Biomancy.  Karanak eats people and gives a unit he joins Scouts, yes please.  Skulltaker takes skulls.  Masque deep strikes in to remove overwatch before a critical charge, then eats popguns until she dies horribly.  Blue Scribes are...blue, I guess.  Epidemius has a pretty model at least.

 

Elites: Beasts are cute, but you pay a ton for all those special rules.  Fiends do not not not deny attacks, folks just need to read the BRB FAQ (Combat is resolved from highest Initiative to lowest, not 10 down to 1).  They lost attacks, strength, Eternal Warrior and Hit & Run, but now give you "kinda assault grenades" so they are somewhat necessary.  Crushers increased in price and got a lot flimsier, but they do have some potential tag-teaming with Karanak for a speedy icon and guaranteed turn 2 charge (12" Scout, 12" move, D6" run, 12" move, 6+D6" charge ignoring terrain).  Flamers are a joke, hope you didn't buy 27.  The real killer is the loss of Warpfire and the new "kill zone" rules limiting their damage potential severely.

 

Troops: I really don't like them much.  Plaguebearers are great objective campers.  Daemonettes are about the only ones worth taking en masse (a bajillion rending attacks!).  Bloodletters have too few attacks and poor durability.  Horrors have less firepower than before and have to mess with psychic powers all the time.  Nurglings don't even bear mention.

 

Fast Attack: Easily the best slot in the book.  Flesh Hounds are outrageous at 16 points for 2 wounds, WS5, 2A base, furious charge, beast movement and Scouts (which would confer on a joined Herald sporting the Rage locus).  Guaranteed turn 2 charge for a 1 point increase over the last Codex.  Seekers are frail, but fast and buckets of attacks.  Screamers were so obnoxiously overpowered from the WD update that a huge nerf only makes them great.  Bladevanes, 3A base and hammer of wrath will still slaughter infantry, and even 1 lamprey bite per model is still ripping apart armor and elite infantry.  Considering how little anti-armor Daemons have outside MCs, Screamers are really nice.  Furies are silly cheap for jump infantry, especially with rending.  Plague Flies are probably the weakest due to cost, and even they're good.

 

Heavy Support:  Skyfire is overrated, especially BS3 and S7.  Grinders are still great for the price, but hardly an auto-include.  Skull Chariots are great for giving out grenades and threatening armor.  Burning Chariots are open-topped AV10, even firing at full BS they're too fragile.  Slaanesh chariots are still very cheap for something that can murder infantry en masse quite easily.

 

There's also the abomination that is the Warp Storm table, potentially winning or losing games before they even start.  That alone makes Daemons a poor choice as a primary army. 

 

The army has a lot of good bits, but the overly influential randomness and weird nerfs/prices across the board really bug me.  I think it's fine for casual play, but I wouldn't bring it to a tournament unless I had some strangely specific build put together.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Fiends do not not not deny attacks, folks just need to read the BRB FAQ (Combat is resolved from highest Initiative to lowest, not 10 down to 1).

 

Very good catch!

 

The BRB FAQ entry is actually an Errata.  And changes the rules from 10 to 1 to Highest to Lowest.

 

So you would get to attack at step zero.

[Smurfalypse]

 

Fiends do not not not deny attacks, folks just need to read the BRB FAQ (Combat is resolved from highest Initiative to lowest, not 10 down to 1).

 

Very good catch!

 

The BRB FAQ entry is actually an Errata.  And changes the rules from 10 to 1 to Highest to Lowest.

 

So you would get to attack at step zero.

 

Very good catch indeed. I suppose I should reread that at some point :P

[Nehekhare]

few points:

 

1) Ku'gath propably shouldn't be taking biomancy powers. As a lvl1 psyker with an AP 3 large blast he'd have a 50% chance to get another AP2 large blast from the plague discipline, or change the roll into the primaris AP3 template. With those, he'd do way more damage than he ever could in melee. DoN is wasted in CC anyway, but makes for a very tough close to mid-range firebase that doesn't care too much about being assaulted (nurgle grinder on crack).

 

2) funny how the best weapon against nurgle is poison and the worst is tzeentch fire. 

[Iron Sage]

few points:

 

1) Ku'gath propably shouldn't be taking biomancy powers. As a lvl1 psyker with an AP 3 large blast he'd have a 50% chance to get another AP2 large blast from the plague discipline, or change the roll into the primaris AP3 template. With those, he'd do way more damage than he ever could in melee. DoN is wasted in CC anyway, but makes for a very tough close to mid-range firebase that doesn't care too much about being assaulted (nurgle grinder on crack).

 

2) funny how the best weapon against nurgle is poison and the worst is tzeentch fire. 

 

1) Kugath can`t take a biomancy power, although I very much agree that he should not have done so if he actually could ;)

[Nehekhare]

Ha, true!

 

same applies to the GUO, though.

[Seahawk]

People are advocating for not trying to get Iron Arm or Endurance?? Really??

[Iron Sage]

People are advocating for not trying to get Iron Arm or Endurance?? Really??

 

On a GUO, i would go for Biomancy, unless he is only lv1 psyker, in which case I would lean towards plague. Lv 2 or lv 3, Biomancy on the GUO most definatly IMO.

 

Kugath is different though. If he actually could take biomancy, I would like Nehekare, prefer plague as he has one ordnance, and thus would have 50%  chance of getting another, albeit with shoorter range.

[Nehekhare]

I think Ku'gath is the most you can make out of a GUO. If you want melee or psipowers, you'd propably be better off taking one the other GDs instead. Shooting from cover while not dying is what Daemons of Nurgle do best.

[Iron Sage]

I think Ku'gath is the most you can make out of a GUO. If you want melee or psipowers, you'd propably be better off taking one the other GDs instead. Shooting from cover while not dying is what Daemons of Nurgle do best.

Maybe. Not made up my mind yet.

I have a game on friday in which I am going to play a fluffy Nurgle list. He is indeed in my list, and it will be the first time I try him with the new daemon codex.

[Seahawk]

I dunno, getting a GUO with Corpulescence, Daemonic Resilience, Iron Arm, Endurance, and Warp Speed would be terrifying to face. Even just two of those makes it tough to deal with. It's no slouch in killing things, either...

[Captain Idaho]

That sword with the bonus to stats will be good on a GUO.

 

I do think it's a hard model to get the most out of. I would put it firmly last out of the choices for Greater Daemon to be honest since the rest are much quicker.

 

However I still think he's a good choice as I think all the Greater Daemons are scary to face!

[Brother Ambroz]

A GUO with biomancy would be pretty insane but who would be dumb enough to get into CC with it? That's it's main problem, I agree you'd be better off with Kugath.

[Smurfalypse]

I agree for the most part. You could probably footslog a GUO behind some other stuff and get the whole 3+cover save and be able to survive the trek, but you would be doing nothing for that entire time because of the lack of a ranged weapon, not to mention it would take a good three turns before you would make it.

 

However a ML 3 GUO walking up the board behind stuff, buffing other units and being generally annoying may make for a good leader. Also who really wants to face him in CC, he is terribly tough.

[Seahawk]

Buff the unit in front with the Grimoire, walk Nurgle behind them, everybody gets a 3+ save. Nurgle does have access to ranged spells and they aren't half bad, just short range.

[Nehekhare]

terribly tough, yes. but since he's not scoring, toughness only helps so much. without sweeping advances, his kill ratio is potentially much lower than that of the the other GDs, lower in any case than what the templates could wreck.

ranged damage would outstrip his competors against marines, where sweeps don't matter and AP3/2 makes a real difference.

In addition to that, Ku'gath has the instability reroll as a fixed warlord trait.

[Learn2Eel]

Seahawk, on 11 Mar 2013 - 19:07, said:

I've finished up going through the book, comparing strengths and weaknesses of the different gods, and here's my basic review. I won't discuss the special characters, but in general they follow the same guideline as the non-special dudes. It's entirely independent of other opinions, it's all my own here, so if you object...good for you!

Rankings will be 1 = Best, 4 = Worst.

HQ

Greater Daemons:

1. Khorne

I feel Khorne scored the best of the Greater Daemons. They have both WS and BS 10, meaning they'll hit everything except the Eldar Avatar on a 3+ in close combat, and their ranged weapons (rather insanely!) hit on a 2+/2+. Most importantly, however, they come stock with Warp-forged armor, netting a 3+ armor save. It is my opinion that all Greater Daemons get the most mileage out of having two Greater Rewards, since most of them are defensive in nature. With the Bloodthirster already having the armor, it essentially gets three Greater Rewards to all the other daemons' two, and gets to reroll if you roll up the armor.

Add to this that it can Fly, and the fact that it can inflict Instant Death with its weapon, and it becomes more clear why Khorne wins this category. Fastest speed, heaviest hitter, decent defenses.

2. Nurgle

Toughness 7 and 6 wounds are a quick indication of the winning attributes here. Needless to say, the rotting turd pile is tough to kill. It also has poisoned attacks at S6, meaning it'll almost always reroll to wound. The trump card here is that it can take Biomancy powers. Being able to increase its toughness to 10 is crazy big. Only S7+ weapons can hurt it at that point. Getting Endurance or the other powers also help immensely increase its durability.

This one comes in at #2 for its great potential for never dying.

3. Slaanesh

Slaanesh is kind of odd. It has a fairly standard stat-line, but with a nice hefty WS of 9 and I of 10. It's definitely the fastest non-flying MC, with a D6+3" run and Fleet for the charges. Its psychic powers are less than enticing (actually, very few of any of the Daemon psychic powers are any good), though Telepathy has its uses.

Slaanesh is #3 for not being as killy or as durable as the first two, but its still fast and dangerous.

4. Tzeentch

The Lord of Change flies and has 6's across the board, but...that's about it. Divination is decent, and Tzeentch powers are meh. It can dish out decent damage at range, but being only able to use one ranged power a turn really restricts the utility of this one. Its stats aren't the best for combat either, so what does it do? It makes your opponents tougher to kill, like all Tzeentch units.

Warpflame, poor spell selection, and meh stats drop this guy to the bottom of the Greater Daemons.

Heralds:

1. Nurgle

Once more, Biomancy comes to the fore to make him beefy, but really he already tops out with the highest Strength and Toughness over other heralds. Add in having the best mount of all heralds (+2W, +1A), the Greater Reward weapon making all his attacks Instant Death, and the basic Nurgle benefits of Shrouding and Defensive Grenades, and the Nurgle Herald is most definitely the winner here. Oh, did I mention his Locus ability of giving Feel No Pain is totally awesome?

No need to say why Nurgle is #1.

2. Slaanesh

The Slaaneshi Herald is, as usual, fast, slicy, and has great Locus abilities (giving her unit I10, rerolls to hit). Rending gives a nice edge too, being able to wound anything and do it with AP2. Combining the Witstealer sword with Fiends or other things that lower the enemy's Initiative to 0 is a great combo for gibbing multi-wound models.

The crazier stat-line and Locus abilities are what push this god into #2 for Heralds.

3. Khorne

Even though the basic S and T are pretty good here, the Locus abilities, for the most part, fall short of being a strong combat multiplier. He's also only AP3 standard, and has to purchase a Specialist weapon to gain AP2 attacks.

So, not so good as the first two.

4. Tzeentch

Gee, look who's pulling bottom again. This guy suffers from the same problems as his larger counterpart, though admittedly he's better to do it at range, likely hanging out with Horrors or somesuch. Honestly, I think Khorne and Tzeentch may be interchangable here, but that darn Warpflame keeps rearing its ugly head.

Troops

1. Nurgle

Sometimes I worry that I'll keep sounding like a broken record here, but Nurgle comes out on top because it's the strongest (S4 poison), toughest (T4), most versatile (can glance vehicles in CC on a 6 to pen), and has Shrouding and defensive grenades. When combined with a Herald, they really become a power house, and their Plague Banner is quite nice too for the turn you really need it.

As a fun side attraction, there are also infiltrating, shrouded, Nurglings!

2. Slaanesh

Speedy, slicey, rendy, and no weaker than Bloodletters. Again, they're a decent utility unit, being able to take on hordes, elite infantry, or tanks.

3. Khorne

Everyone loves a good Bloodletter! Unfortunately, their toughness dropped to be equal that of a Daemonette, long considered to be pretty killable. Their AP3 weapons can carve up marines, but bounce pitifully off 2+ armor saves. That, and they can't do anything to vehicles and this is where they end up.

4. Tzeentch

Sigh, Horrors. Being only Mastery 1 they can only use powers that require only 1 warp charge to use, despite being able to get up to 3. They're weak and wimpy, though they can push out a decent amount of firepower from a boosted (and deniable!) Flickering Fire. You know, I'm tempted to bump these up to 3rd, but the consistent, un-dispellable power of AP3 weapons is hard to ignore.

Elites

1. Nurgle

Guess what, here comes Nurgle again! The beasts are, well, beastly. With tons of wounds and It Will Not Die, potential for buckets of attacks, and their extreme desire to play that results in Warmachine-esque rules, Nurgle takes the top spot again over the competitors.

2. Slaanesh

Despite suffering a slight nerf in losing two attacks, the Fiends come out ahead by reducing nearby enemy psychic power effectiveness as well as putting nearly every enemy unit at Initiative 0, as well as a third wound. They still have tons of rending attacks, so that's pretty good.

3. Khorne

Hmm, this is starting to look familiar. T4, 3 wounds, and...a 5+ invulnerable save. These guys took a BIG hit, but nearly so bad as those flamers!

4. Tzeentch

Like my other thread, those poor flamers. They lost everything and gained nothing.

Fast Attack

1. Nurgle

The new unit is nice. It's also the fastest of all Nurgle daemons, being jet-pack cavalry! They combine all the awesome benefits of being Nurgle with suddenly turning into fast, maneuverable Nurgle! Crazy stuff.

2. Slaanesh

More new units taking the cake. The Chariots hit hard, though the Seekers aren't particularly powerful.

3. Khorne

The Khorne dogs saw a slight improvement over the previous incarnation, and are more resistant to psychic powers which is nice, but in the end they are still just S4/T4 5+ save pups.

4. Tzeentch

Honestly, why did they even bother keeping Tzeentch in the book at this point? Screamers are as sad as Flamers now.

Heavy Support

1. Tzeentch (post FAQ)

Oh this is why! The Flaming Chariot provides the army with a much, much needed bit of anti-tank firepower. D3 18" lascannon shots are quite nice to spew out when desired, and having an AP3 torrent weapon when you want to obliterate infantry is also super awesome. The one and only shining star of Tzeentch in the book.

2. Soul Grinder

The weapons this guy carries, on a sturdy 13/13 hull, ensures he comes in 2nd. Being the only unit in the book with Skyfire, it's almost essential to have in any competitive list to be able to combat the flyers you know you'll see. The other upgrades it can take, in addition to being a Daemon of Nurgle and gaining Shrouding also help to make this a strong overall choice.

3. Slaanesh

The Seeker Cavalcade is an interesting, though I'd say underrated, choice. Exalted Chariots are where it's at: cheap and extremely killy, with a likely 4D6 Rending hits, you know you're going to ruin a unit's day, and that's just with a single chariot! Being able to take units of three just sweetens the deal...

4. Khorne

While the S8 cannon is nice, it's only AP5. While it's useful for hoping to instant kill or deny FNP to T4 creatures, its much obvious greater value is hitting weak troops in cover, then assaulting them with whatever daemons are on hand. While this seems like a good thing, it's taking up a Heavy Support slot that could be better used by the above. In a competitive environment, where you see 2/3 of your opponents are a MEq of some sort, that big shell will just bounce right off. Still useful for assaulting cover, but there are other, more efficient ways to do that.

Hey there! I liked your review, and I think it is long and adequately detailed. You stick true to your guns, which I most definitely respect. It is a good review overall, though I would like to talk about some parts I disagree with - it adds to the discussion, as you say

So, about the Greater Daemons; I think you underrate the Lord of Change really harshly. Though its basic statline is inferior to the other Greater Daemons, it is still more than enough to make almost any other monstrous creature bluff. That, and it is a mastery level two psyker with access to Divination, standard. Divination actually works far better for the Lord of Change than I think you realize; the first and fourth powers don't help it much, obviously, but every other power - including the Primaris - is really excellent. Prescience affects melee attacks, not just ranged weapons, which can be combined for deadly effect with Screamers, Daemonettes, Bloodcrushers and the like. Horrors also get a lot of jazz out of it, and as has been mentioned, you can't ignore the potential implications it has on Allies, particularly Chaos Space Marines. Forewarning is amazing, as you can give any one unit - or the Lord of Change itself - a +4 invulnerable save, which has a lot of uses across the board. Misfortune forces an enemy unit to re-roll all successful saving throws, which combined with Prescience cast on units such as Horrors or Havocs, can absolutely annihilate a unit. Precognition makes the Lord of Change pretty amazing, as re-rolls to hit, to wound, and re-rolling failed saving throws is pretty nasty on something that rocks an awesome profile. Scier's Gaze is also very good, especially considering Chaos Daemons are a codex that employs tonnes of units that Deep Strike, Outflank and the like. In fact, the most popular competitive build for any Greater Daemon going around currently is a Mastery Level 2 or 3 Lord of Change with one lesser gift (the stave) and two greater gifts. Unless you roll badly, it will be extremely hard to kill and be very versatile as both an exceedingly strong offensive unit and a great support unit. In a pinch, you can even take the Change Primaris to deal with enemy fliers - cast Prescience, expend the extra warp charge point, and go hunting the rear armour of fliers! The Lord of Change is fantastic, probably the most cost-effective and definitely the most ideal in terms of versatility. That you say it isn't the best for combat means you either haven't looked at other codices or you haven't considered the cheap Stave of Change and/or Divination and how they make the Lord of Change an arguably superior close combat unit to a Bloodthirster.

The Keeper of Secrets has the lowest 'ceiling' of the Greater Daemons, but kitted out for what it needs, it is also easily the cheapest. That is the benefit of using it; you can quite easily fit a pair of them with two greater gifts each into a 1500 point army list and still be able to take a fully-fledged Daemon force composed of Daemonettes, Seekers and the like. Mastery Level one with Psychic Shriek and two Greater Gifts runs the Keeper a touch over two hundred points, which is pretty rocking. The Bloodthirster requires the least amount of work, as it already sports warp-forged armour, but it is still a good idea to give it two greater gifts - a note though, from memory I don't think you re-roll the +3 armour greater gift for a Bloodthirster or a Daemon Prince. Hopefully a FAQ will clear this up. The Bloodthirster suffers by only being there for combat and has no real support abilities; the Lord of Change, for a similar cost, is as good - if not better - offensively when given the stave, and paired with Divination, does a lot more for the army. The Great Unclean One is purely a fire magnet, as with two greater gifts and three rolls on Biomancy, it is very likely to become nigh impossible to kill. It is slow, and enemies will unfortunately exploit that - kitted out, it also becomes very expensive, but less than a fully equipped Lord of Change of course. The Plague discipline is also very good, provided you don't roll up the warp charge two power; even then, just swap that one for the pretty nasty Primaris power. If I had to arrange the Greater Daemons in terms of 'best to worst', I would probably have the Lord of Change at the top of the herd and the others all have their own place - the thing to remember is that though the Keeper of Secrets is arguably the weakest, it is also easily the cheapest and thus that needs to be considered.

As far as the Heralds go, I think you are looking solely at the base profiles and not the actual implications of the Heralds joining the units. The Herald of Nurgle's stat-line is actually out-weighed by the Heralds of Khorne and Slaanesh - though the Herald of Nurgle has the highest Toughness, the other two are superior in every other aspect. His mediocre Initiative and decent Weapon Skill count for a lot when taken against other commanders, which the latter two Heralds actually can reliably defeat with little support. His Greater Reward weapon inflicting instant death is nice, but remember, it doesn't ignore armour and, given he only has two wounds and a weak invulnerable save, his low Initiative could very well mean the death of him against anything where it would make a difference. I strongly disagree about having the best mount too, as again you seem to be judging that based solely on the profile modifiers. The Steed of Slaanesh, for example, allows a Herald of Slaanesh to support the incredibly cost-effective and deadly Seekers of Slaanesh. The Juggernaught of Khorne allows a Herald of Khorne to join a unit such as Bloodcrushers or Flesh Hounds, the former being a hammer of death, the latter granting the Herald Scout and gaining irrational buffs on an already powerful unit. The Disc of Tzeentch is also very useful, as it allows Tzeentch Heralds to reliably cast their great Divination powers wherever they are needed. The Palanquin does not change the Herald of Nurgle's mobility, and thus it is actually restricted on what units it can viably join without slowing them down, whereas the others suffer no such restriction. The Herald of Nurgle does have the fantastic Feel No Pain Locus, but the other two are mediocre at best in my opinion.

The Herald of Slaanesh has by far the best Locus - the Exalted One - for general purpose murder, and generally speaking she is highly cost effective and can be used in nearly any Slaanesh unit without a problem. Your criticisms of the Khorne Herald are very odd given what praises you were giving to the Herald of Nurgle. The Nurgle Herald lacks any kind of armour-ignoring weapon, yet you are using the Khorne Herald's hellblade as a weak-point compared to the others? The Locus abilities that multiply the combat potential for Nurgle units - specifically the first and third one - don't do nearly as much as the second and third Khorne Loci do; granting Rage and Hatred to an entire unit wielding power swords and Furious Charge surely can't be considered a weak combat multiplier. Bloodletters with Rage will butcher almost anything that doesn't have +2 armour. Flesh Hounds with Rage similarly can maul through entire units in no time. Hatred works wonders against other high Weapon Skill opponents. Again, I don't see how having to purchase a cheap as chips AP two specialist weapon can be considered inferior to a Herald of Nurgle that has to do the same thing to ignore any kind of armour? For straight up combat, the Herald of Khorne is quite superior to a Herald of Nurgle, and works in a wider array of units. I also can't understand why you think the Herald of Tzeentch is bad - that you say it "suffers from the same problems as his larger counterpart" confuses me, honestly. He is there for support and offense of a different kind; Prescience on any unit, from Daemonettes to Horrors, is fantastic, and any of the other Divination powers are excellent. What really makes the Herald of Tzeentch tick, aside from his combination with Chaos Space Marine Allies, is how he turns a mediocre ranged unit (Horrors) into a nasty one. Take the Exalted Locus, take Prescience and Mastery Level three, combine with sixteen or more Pink Horrors and, aside from casting Prescience, expend all warp charge points on the Tzeentch Primaris as the Horrors do. What the literal carnage that ensues as almost entire squads are (on average) wiped out, and that includes Tactical Marines; light infantry will be obliterated in one salvo. And what's left isn't really going to get the benefits of the Warpflame rule either, as two salvos from that unit - which is actually a lot cheaper than you would think - will wipe out ten Immortals/Tactical Marines quite easily, which is more than can be said of such units firing at their own equivalents. Overall, all four of the Heralds are great, but have specific purposes; the Herald of Nurgle is there to make Plaguebearers far tougher and provide some nasty witchfire powers, the Heralds of Slaanesh and Khorne are nasty challenge-characters that provide great melee-oriented buffs, whilst the Herald of Tzeentch is there for all-around support.

On to Troops! First off, Plaguebearers are there strictly for objective-holding; their combat abilities are mediocre at best, especially when compared to Bloodletters and Daemonettes, and they can't be a firebase like Horrors. As much as they are ok in combat, they are actually quite likely to get beaten down by Tactical Marines if you don't take enough of them and/or get the charge. They are probably the best Troops choice, but that is because they are the strongest objective-holders - Horrors are more fragile but put out more offensive powers, whilst the others are there either for offense or tar-pitting. Nurglings are great tarpit units, indeed. Daemonettes are the best value-for-points of the Troops by a mile, but their only issue is actually getting to use their abilities where it counts; this is why looking beyond at the full picture is important, as they should never be used to run up the field. They are fantastic objective-takers, superb in melee, and against light vehicles are pretty decent too due to their sheer weight of attacks. Bloodletters can't do anything to vehicles? What? You do realize they are Strength five on the charge right? Yes, vehicles shouldn't be their targets but it is important to note that they can and should destroy and rear-armour 10 vehicle in the game on the charge. Bloodletters are the least versatile of the Troops choices, but they aren't at all bad; they are there specifically for hunting medium infantry, though Daemonettes win against any other kind of melee unit. Not much to disagree with here I must say, except for your opinion of Horrors.

Pink Horrors actually don't work that way. They always count as Mastery Level one, which means they only ever generate one power. They, however, generate additional warp charge points, which is useful specifically for the Primaris power. As far as 'weak and wimpy' goes, they aren't terrible in combat and can do a number on other light infantry due to Fear and their invulnerable save. They obviously aren't intended for combat, and criticising them as such is pointless. The funny thing is though, they are actually more durable than either Bloodletters or Daemonettes, and when paired with an Aegis Defence Line, are actually even harder to remove than Plaguebearers - Go to Ground and snap-fire your witchfire powers combined with Prescience if you want them to live on a +2 re-rollable cover save. What I notice you didn't mention was that Horrors, unlike other units that put out similar firepower such as Necron Immortals, do not lose their effectiveness when they lose models, or at least, based on their initial squad size anyway. A unit of ten shoots as well as it does when only one survives, and given the Primaris power which they should be using is pretty decent, opponents can't rely on 'crippling' them as they would other such units - actually stopping them requires that extra unit or two, which means less firepower directed at your other units. Their best configuration also puts most enemy equivalents to shame as far as pure firepower goes; take sixteen or more, add a Herald of Tzeentch with Mastery Level three, the Change Primaris, Prescience and any other random power, as well as the Exalted Locus. Enjoy the fireworks as the unit re-rolls to hit and fires 6D6 Strength six AP four shots at twenty four inches. Monstrous creatures got you down? See how much they like all those Strength six shots - combined with Prescience, even Harpies and other flying monstrous creatures will feel the heat. Vehicles can be glanced to death, and light infantry units will be absolutely obliterated. The sheer number of wounds caused on high armour save units is more than enough to inflict significant casualties, and Soul Blaze can add an extra carcass here or there. The configuration does pretty well when compared to other units, though of course Deny the Witch is an issue. Still, given the two separate Witchfire-users, it will only happen once every three game turns on average, meaning either most or some of your shots will be denied once every so often. It is only against psyker-heavy armies or armies with great psychic defences that you really need to be worried about denial. The reason you take these units and invest the points in them is not only to deny the potential effects of Warpflame, but also to maximise their efficiency. They are a lot better than you give them credit for.

As far as Elites go, I think all of them are a bit over-costed for what they do; it is arguably the weakest section of the codex. Beasts are very expensive, though they are good; however, when one looks at the Daemon army as a whole and how synergies are really important, I think the Fiends take top spot mostly due to the Soporific Mask. The value of that ability simply cannot be under-stated; that, and Fiends make great Overwatch-soakers for opponents when combined with Seekers and Daemonettes. Bloodcrushers work in specific combinations, the first of which is as 'homing' units for your reserves - mostly Bloodletters and Daemonettes - where they aren't bad at all and make for a useful and hard-hitting distraction unit as well. The latter is to pair them up with Karanak and make for a pretty brutal first-turn charging unit. In that sense, again, one needs to look at the available combinations to make the units work rather than judge them based on face value. Flamers aren't as bad as people make them out to be; for their cost, they still do decently. I don't think anyone can seriously complain that they were nerfed; alongside Screamers, they were one of the most broken units in the entire game. They are there now for harassment and hunting light infantry, so though they aren't great, they still have a place.

I must say I can't disagree more with your summation of the Fast Attack section. Though the Plague Drones are good, they are a bit over-costed for what they do; I like them, but they should be used also to help other melee units to arrive from deep strike reliably and combine witht hem for a nasty turn two/three assault, as combi-charges are the way to go with Daemons. I'm really confused by your summation of Seekers. They are unbelievably undert-costed for what they do; are you seriously saying they aren't powerful when each model puts out four WS5 S3 I5 Rending attacks on the charge? That they are Cavalry, can Outflank and Acute Senses on top of their boosted combat abilities compared to the already above-par Daemonettes is apparently only worth three schmakos. I don't see how you can say they aren't a great unit with a straight face. Their speed, synergy with deep-striking units as cheap and fast icon holders, and incredible combat abilities combine for what is most definitely a fantastic unit. A twelve inch movement not slowed by terrain that can run six inches plus a re-rollable D6, or charge 2D6 inches with re-rolls? Again, four Rending attacks at WS5 I5 on the charge, per model? They are phenomenal for the cost.

I am also equally mystified about your summation of the Flesh Hounds. Gaining an extra wound, a point of Weapon Skill and overall superior combat abilities is in no way a 'slight improvement'. They are Scouting Beasts that each put out three WS5 S5 I4 attacks on the charge, which on a decently sized unit is more than enough to power through a lot of enemies even with the lack of AP. They will almost certainly charge on the first turn provided you go second, and given that you can attach someone like Skulltaker or a Herald of Khorne with the Rage Locus to them and they get to Scout as well, they are a devastating flanking unit. They are also a lot harder to kill than you intimate, what with two wounds each at Toughness four and a +5 invulnerable save; given that Beasts effectively ignore terrain for all intents and purposes, they can also gain cover saves without fear of slowing down or suffering wounds. Their standard profile makes them as tough as a Space Marine, and it is a lot more difficult for them to lose 'effectiveness' due to being able to spread the wounds around through careful placement via the wound allocation rules. Though I think Seekers are harder-hitting, Flesh Hounds are much more durable and very damaging in their own right. The potential for a first turn charge that will reliably maul units such as Devastators, Long Fangs, Heavy Weapon Teams and even tanks like Leman Russes - all of which give Daemons a hard time whilst advancing - cannot be under-stated. They are cheap too, meaning you can force your opponent to waste a turn getting rid of them and then proceed to get your other stuff up there whilst suffering less damage on the way.

I had to laugh at your appraisal of Tzeentch in this book, to be quite frank. I think most would agree that you are judiciously under-rating most of the Tzeentch units so far; the Lord of Change is widely considered the best Greater Daemon, whereas the Herald of Tzeentch is also seen as one of the top two Heralds. Horrors are hardly a bad unit, though your opinion of Flamers is justified. However, Screamers are not bad, and that you said almost nothing about them tells me you didn't take the time to study them whatsoever - perhaps you did, and if so, I apologise, but really, your tone and diction indicates otherwise. Screamers were broken before, and if you actually compare them amongst other units in the codex as opposed to wrongly comparing them to their previous incarnation, they are a far better unit than you give them credit for. They are the fastest moving unit in the codex by far as Jetbikes, and they also become the most durable Fast Attack choice when they turbo boost - +4 cover, re-rolls of ones and two wounds each at Toughness four. Given that their turbo-boost movement can cover most of the board, thus getting them into a great position either to launch an assault in the subsequent turn, draw fire from other units by forcing enemies to shoot them or be assaulted, or otherwise jump to a safe spot is radical. But what makes that tactic so awesome is that each one does the D3 S4 AP- hits when they fly over - on a unit of six, they average about twelve hits, for six wounds on Tactical Marines and two casualties. Given that the Screamers are also increasing their durability and getting into a great position to do whatever is necessary whilst performing this action, and given that six turns of doing so would mean they make their points back assuming average rolls, you can simply 'fly-by' with Screamers throughout the game and troll your opponent. They still hit hard with four Strength four WS3 I4 attacks each on the charge, or one S5 AP Armourbane attack each - the former is for shredding all kinds of infantry, and yes, a cheap squad will still mow through Space Marines, whilst the latter is used to reliably destroy most vehicles and waltz through Terminators with decent success. Where they really shine is when combined with a Herald of Tzeentch on a Disc using Prescience, improving their combat effectiveness dramatically and even being able to grant other psyhcic powers - based on what it rolls up - such as Ignores Cover or forcing enemies to re-roll successful saving throws, the former to troll cover-camping light infantry and the latter to really maximise their damage. Screamers are a far, far better unit than you give them credit for methinks.

As far as Heavy Support goes, the Burning Chariots are good - but only if the still forthcoming FAQ addresses their issue of firing on the move. If it doesn't, they will remain a very mediocre choice; they are a glass cannon, but one that is far better than the Dark Angels Land Speeder Vengeance, as an example. Regardless of the FAQ, I would always put Soul Grinders in first place though - their durability, firepower, melee prowess and general versatility whilst always clocking in at under 200 points is simply incomparable to any other unit in the slot. As far as taking on fliers though, many may prefer a Lord of Change with Prescience and the Change Primaris, or a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh with the whip; otherwise, Allies do good stuff. The best combination is obviously Nurgle with Phlegm, but Slaanesh with the Torrent is also pretty nasty; each serves a different purpose though, and an army list should be tailored around which you need, though I do like how the Nurgle one is used for back-field suppression and the Slaanesh one is a running assault machine. Fluffy! The Slaaneshi Chariots are good, agreed. Actually, I strongly disagree on the Skull Cannon - assuming average rolls, a good hit on a Space Marine unit will kill about three or so, which hardly 'bounces off' especially seeing as the Soul Grinder's Phlegm Bombardment will often get similar results against enemies in cover whilst being less reliable in terms of actually hitting the target. The Ignores Cover and higher Ballistic Skill actually make it the incredibly superior option to a Phlegm-equipped Soul Grinder against any kind of light infantry, particularly Imperial Guard who are very much in vogue now. Of course, I do think the Soul Grinder is the superior choice overall, but the Cannon is quite a bit better than you give it credit for. That, and the assaulting through cover bonus is well worth the price of admission - if it weren't for the Soul Grinder being so amazing, the Skull Cannon would likely be the default competitive choice for Heavy Support.

Just my thoughts I'm sure you have very valid arguments as to why your opinions are different to mine. In any case, thank you for the thought-provoking and entertaining read!

[Smurfalypse]

I agree.

[minigun762]

I can't help but feel that people are getting too caught up in 'letters getting knocked down to T3 and not seeing that they're still dead killy. Sure you lose half of the squad to shooting, but even a handful of the red faced monsters hitting a tactical squad will do significant damage. Against light infantry like guardsmen, it would be a slaughter.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah Bloodletters are one of those units that work best in 2 beefy assault units supported by other stuff the opponent just has to kill (Fiends and Bloodcrushers spring to mind) and then they'll cause all sorts of problems.

 

I'm really liking this Codex because I'm seeing all sorts of builds here.

[Ian Hockert]

Overall, I think this review is an interesting take on the new codex and a worthwhile read, however there are certain areas where I disagree with the OP.

 

I disagree with the assessment on the Lord of Change.  I think he is probably the best greater daemon of the bunch and I'm a Nurgle player.  However, I think all of the greater daemons are worthwhile, some will just require new tactics to optimize thier effectiveness.

 

As far as Heralds are concerned, I think all of them are really strong other than the Tzeentch herald.  However, that has to do with the fact that I think Horrors are not great, as they have too many rolls to make to be reliable.  That being said I think a Herald of Tzeentch on a Chariot to provide divination support can still be pretty strong.  I also think psychic powers on the non-Tzeentch heralds are a waste of points.  Leadership 8 is not reliable enough to make those powers truly effective.  As far as the rest of the Heralds are concerned, Khorne is probably the best from an individual combat standpoint, especially on a Juggernaught and with a greater and a lesser gift.  The Slaanesh Herald can also be relatively formidable in combat but her frailty could get her into trouble against durable enemy characters.  The Nurgle one is probably not as good as the others due to its lack of speed but if you want to try and build a pure Nurgle army they provide your Plaguebearer squads some reliable punch to maximize their use as assault troops.  However, I do disagree with the OP on a Herald of Nurgle's armament.  I think the Herald of Nurgle will be most reliably effective taking a Palanquin, the FNP locus, a lesser and greater gift and defaulting both of those to the etherblade and greater etherblade.  Having 5 or 6 (if you charge) Str 6 AP 2 attacks at WS 5 with a reroll for MC is not terrible offensive output.

 

As far as special characters are concerned, I think Skarbrand is pretty burly if he can make combat and that Epidemius should still be considered in Mono-Nurgle lists (The bubble shrinking sucks but the ability to have Soul Grinders contribute to the Tally is pretty helpful).  I can also see the Masque seeing play in CSM armies more than in Daemon armies. 

 

I like all the troops other than Horrors, who I simply don't like due to random output and the strength of some of the psychic defense out there (SW, Eldar most notably).  Against either of those armies, your Horrors fail to do anything almost 50% of the time and even if they doe work, bad dice can make the effect unimpressive.  I see good uses for the other troops depending on personal preference, though I feel like daemonettes are probably the superior choice to bloodletters due to their greater speed and similar level of offenive output (depending on the target there is some variability). 

 

In general, I think the elite section of the codex is probably the weakest section of the codex.  The units there are ok, and have some potential with the right support but I'm not a huge fan of any of them. 

 

Fast Attack has some of the best stuff, with Seekers probably being the most effective unit in the section.  They are cheap, fast and have tremendous offensive output.  The Fleshhounds are likewise strong due to the addition of an additional wound and a high volume of good str attacks.  I think the Plague Drones are cool but have no illusion of them being as good as Seekers or Fleshhounds but they are good way to get a resilient Icon up field for the second wave of Daemons.  The ability to take a Herald of Nurgle on Rot Fly would have made them significantly better.  Screamers still have some value due to their slashing attacks but I think they are the worst unit in this section overall.

[Captain Idaho]

I think Horrors are seriously under rated. I really rate them as a solid objective holder, particularly lead by a Herald to caste Divination and an attack all of his own.

 

The only problem is outdated Codex books which have over the top Psychic defences but as there are only 2 of then I don't think it's such an issue. Besides Daemons have plenty of other stuff to scare those 2 armies!