Seahawk's Review

[Sception]

Even assuming their power casts successfully and gets through, their firepower output vs. meq is abysmal, six squads won't even kill half of a tac squad on an average round's shooting (not counting contributions from heralds & other non-troop shooting), after which you most likely give the remaining half feel no pain.  Yes, heralds and larger squad sizes can improve the output, but on the other hand you're not going to successfully cast everything, either.

 

Yes, they're better against geq type enemies, but when meqs are the majority of armies plaid, the terribleness of horrors at fighting them is a big deal.

[Nehekhare]

actually, their kill-per-point-ratio with a herald (much worse without) compared to 5th ed is slightly better against MEQ, worse against everything else.

 

who needs special psyker defense when you already have an extra LD test (possibly self-damaging) and an extra save (dtw)?

[Captain Idaho]

That's just it though, you use force multipliers on them. It's like saying Space Marine Tactical squads or Imperial Guard squads are terrible but everyone accepts using force multipliers is the legitimate way of playing the game.

 

I've drafted out several lists using Daemonettes and Slaanesh Daemons as my hammer units and holding the back field with maximum strength Horror squad with a level 3 Herald keep finding their way in. They are awesome together and quite cheap for what you get.

[*Furyou Miko]

Ugh, name a recent codex that hasn't suffered from a weak Elites section.

 

Necrons: One good Elites choice. Two if you're generous and allow a HQ attachment to count as Elites.

Sisters: No really good Elites choices.

Chaos Marines: Two good Elites choices... both of which can be made Troops.

Dark Angels: One theoretically good Elites choice... that can be made Troops easily.

 

Heck, it goes further back.

Blood Angels: One good Elites choice (Sanguinary Priests)

Imperial Guard: One good Elites choice (Marbo)

Grey Knights: One good Elites choice that can be made Troops and is no longer all that good (Paladins).

 

Elites is just... the dumping ground for things that fit the category of Awesome But Impractical.

[Seahawk]

Daemons codex is 2 awesome elites, 2 sub-par elites, so at least it's 50/50.

[Sception]

Eh, beasts and fiends both seem pretty decent, but I'm not sure I'd call them awesome.

[Captain Idaho]

Fiends are awesome. Their speed is unholy and their killing power is dangerous.

[Seahawk]

I'd most definitely call both awesome. Their extra abilities bust them into the better category.

[x01848m]

I am really surprised to see no more than a small reference to Fateweaver in this thread. Is he not generally considered to stack up well against the other GDs? Granted he sucks in close combat by comparison, which is probably the main reason no one is discussing him.

 

But The Lord of Unreality and Staff of tomorrow go a long way to mitigating troubles with random rolls and getting good warp storm rolls. The Staff of Unreality is the only way I am comfortable using the Grimoire in my army, for example.

 

Fateweaver has access to a wide variety of psychic powers which allow for good buffs and good shooting, providing a lot of options for a number of situations. I really like using him as a trouble shooter. And keeping your warlord in the air to deny slay the warlord while remaining fully effective is a big plus for me. So what that he sucks in close combat, he is meant to stay up in the air annoying the hell out of your opponent. With the Staff of Reality he is much more likely to pass his grounded tests and stay up in the air, too.

 

Thoughts.

[the jeske]

Fateweaver has access to a wide variety of psychic powers which allow

for good buffs and good shooting, providing a lot of options for a

number of situations

problem is you have to build your whole army and even worse your set up on the table around him and all it takes to turn him in to a high cost re-roll is a staff within 24" or eldar runes on the table or play against tyranids. now if there were no ally rule all of those could come under the "bad" match up cathegory, but 6th is about ally . not runing runes or a SW rune priest most of the time means gimping your list and those that dont are chaos csm and necron who dont need it and GK who do bad realy bad things to demons.

[x01848m]

So by the same reasoning are you against taking the LOC over the Bloodthirster? Which HQ do you consider the most optimal from an overall competitive stand point?

[Captain Idaho]

Although people take Allies, no one allies with Tyranids for obvious reasons and most Marines will ally with Imperial Guard before Space Wolves and I rarely see anyone outside of Dark Eldar taking Eldar allies.

 

Bad match ups in part, but Daemons have the edge against SW and Eldar as it is, whilst Tyranids have to be with 12" for their Warp Shadow to matter.

 

Anti Psyker defence is over rated.

[Learn2Eel]

Not everyone takes Eldar/Space Wolf allies, so I hardly see why you should be too worried. Of course a Tzeentch army will struggle against Eldar/Space Wolves, but how common are they really? As far as Tyranids go, most Tzeentch powers don't need to work within 12" of Tyranids, so it isn't too bad. It's also probably another reason why Runes of Warding/Runic Weapons will be changed a lot when those codices are redone.

As it stands, unless your opponent is fielding one of those two armies specifically for their psyker defences, the best HQ in the codex by far is the Divination and Staff-wielding Lord of Change.

[Iron Sage]

Not everyone takes Eldar/Space Wolf allies, so I hardly see why you should be too worried. Of course a Tzeentch army will struggle against Eldar/Space Wolves, but how common are they really? As far as Tyranids go, most Tzeentch powers don't need to work within 12" of Tyranids, so it isn't too bad. It's also probably another reason why Runes of Warding/Runic Weapons will be changed a lot when those codices are redone.

As it stands, unless your opponent is fielding one of those two armies specifically for their psyker defences, the best HQ in the codex by far is the Divination and Staff-wielding Lord of Change.

May I persuade you to continue posting, here as it is surely according to the will of the Grand Mutator?

[hornywingythingy]

It really does depend on your meta, my lgs has several eldar/De players, and one who is experimenting with sw, though I do agree the deathchicken with boppystaff is the best mc in the book. Tbh, the only one I don't see doing well in my meta is the kipper, he will just get dakkad before he gets in.

[minigun762]

I'm not sure that the staff LoC beats a 'thirstergood to be honest.

Superior stats and instant death goes a long way towards a win.

 

As a support HQ, I agree with the LoC.

[Iron Sage]

I'm not sure that the staff LoC beats a 'thirstergood to be honest.

Superior stats and instant death goes a long way towards a win.

 

As a support HQ, I agree with the LoC.

Divination has buff spells though,in addition to the excellent misfortune. LoC also comes as a Lv2 magic wielder included in cost. 50 points more, and you have the STR 8 explosive staff and 2 random greater gifts in addition to his 2 divination powers. 25 points more, and you may take a tzeentch dakka power or another divination spell.

WS and BS 10 is very, very nice (especially if you get that ranged weapon on greater gifts), as is the impressive initiative and all that, but as far as I see it, you can crash a LoC into the lines of most units in the game, and it will still inflict a minor holocaust. Just not as awesome as the thirster without psy buffs, but awesome enough I guess? Then of course you have the very obvious aditional utility in the divination spells in general.

Maybe I am wrong though, but I have problems seeing how the LoC is not just in general better.

[Captain Idaho]

Horses for courses I guess. The Bloodthirster is less vulnerable to attrition than a Lord Change when engaging infantry, as even a few Krak grenades can hurt a LoC because he hasn't the armour save of the Bloodthirster.

 

The utility of the a LoC is immense though and being a Greater Daemon still makes a dent in enemy lines as well as having a great support capacity.

[minigun762]

Sorry, I was thinking more in terms of a 'thirster vs LoC and who'd likely win.

 

Don't get me wrong, LoC is awesome and might be a more well rounded choice but I'm a sucker for face smashing power.

[Captain Idaho]

It's honest, assuring hitting power!

[Brother Ambroz]

BT looks great but like someone else said, all you need to do is roll crappy and have your opponent's powerfist wound you in order to fail that instability test... Then again sounds like he was just really unlucky too.

[minigun762]

BT looks great but like someone else said, all you need to do is roll crappy and have your opponent's powerfist wound you in order to fail that instability test... Then again sounds like he was just really unlucky too.

Being hit on 5's helps thin down those incoming attacks alot.

[Brother Ambroz]

True, I think that's actually his greatest defense right there.

[Iron Sage]

Sorry, I was thinking more in terms of a 'thirster vs LoC and who'd likely win.

 

Don't get me wrong, LoC is awesome and might be a more well rounded choice but I'm a sucker for face smashing power.

Heh, I just misunderstood slightly then :)

 

What i find slightly annoying with MCs is challenges, so since LoC can choose to have an explosive staff I automatically like it better, since exploding a unit (even if you hurt yourself) can help make combat a 1 turn proposition and not something which you find yourself stuck in for several turns (against some armies that is, as it hardly matters much against others).

 

But sure, in a one against one fight, the Thirster is the king.

[the jeske]

Although people take Allies, no one allies with Tyranids for obvious reasons and most Marines will ally with Imperial Guard before Space Wolves and I rarely see anyone outside of Dark Eldar taking Eldar allies.

 

Bad match ups in part, but Daemons have the edge against SW and Eldar as it is, whilst Tyranids have to be with 12" for their Warp Shadow to matter.

 

Anti Psyker defence is over rated.

A If someone plays marines instead of SW as main army, it is his own problem .marines are not the army to beat right now.

B tau take eldar ally and with a new codex soon , there will be more tau and more tau runing eldar.

C Shadow is 12" , but tyrants fly ,trygons dig , brain bug pods  and while the demon player may not want it , the tyranid models with shadow will try to be close . tervigons are probably one of the few that wont , she offten does end up on objectives [being a troop choice and all] and may end up in range because the demon player is getting close

 

 

 

But sure, in a one against one fight, the Thirster is the king.

 

that sounds as if you would run 1-2 flying MCs . in the armies are tested or faced there were either no MCs or there were 4-5 and then the challange problem is moot because your hiting a squads with 1-3 MC models .